Review Round 24, 2024 - Brisbane Lions vs. Essendon

[Bucking Beads]

I can't work out what we've been doing the last 3 weeks. We tried to just job over the line in all 3 games and it cost us a top 4 spot. Be a very interesting watch in the finals.

 

[Gadzorks]

I can't work out what we've been doing the last 3 weeks. We tried to just job over the line in all 3 games and it cost us a top 4 spot. Be a very interesting watch in the finals.

I just posted about this in the coaching thread. We are just fatigued. Week off and we are back.

The effects of sleep extension on the athletic performance of collegiate basketball players - PubMed

Improvements in specific measures of basketball performance after sleep extension indicate that optimal sleep is likely beneficial in reaching peak athletic performance.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Bucking Beads]

Hard not to get excited by what Logan could do after another pre-season or two; 18 goals in his first season to date is pretty impressive to.

He's missed some easy shots on goal too. He will only improve once he fixes his set shot goal kicking. I'd suggest he watches some footage o Nick Larkey or a similar type to get some improvement.

 

[Section 5]

Frees for and against after the last H & A game.

Lions frees for: 424 ranking 6th behind the Suns 450 rank 1
Lions frees against: 372 ranking the 2nd lowest behind the Bomber with 343.

 

[martinson]

My personal view is that the umpiring for the most part has been fine in the majority of our games this year.

Sure I think Charlie and Joe get mistreated on occasions in comparison to other gun forwards.

The major problems seem to have occurred with the introduction of 4 umpires.

First of all the talent pool has been drained and more importantly it's self evidently impossible to get enough consistency with 4 of them each having their own little predelictions and biases.

I don't know why we need 4 . Seems like overkill. With cameras across the field these days it's hard to get away with anything in the court of public opinion and one of the reasons why 4 was brought in was to pick up behind the play transgressions. How often does that happen in realty ? We've got total of 10 umpires out on the ground at any one time. The goal umpires are being made redundant with the vision used every time there's even a remote chance of doubt,

Just a quibble of mine. The goal umpires are used to create theatre imo but ffs why are they instructed to stand right on the goaline next to the post when the ball is coming in on an angle. Mostly they're just in the way and unlikely to be able to see what happened as effectively as if they stood a couple of metres back. Or took more space to the side and back basically in line with the kick coming in. When they get involved with the play and too close to the action they've just got no idea and look up like startled gazelle's every time.

 

[dlanod]

The major problems seem to have occurred with the introduction of 4 umpires.

First of all the talent pool has been drained and more importantly it's self evidently impossible to get enough consistency with 4 of them each having their own little predelictions and biases.

I don't know why we need 4 . Seems like overkill. With cameras across the field these days it's hard to get away with anything in the court of public opinion and one of the reasons why 4 was brought in was to pick up behind the play transgressions. How often does that happen in realty ? We've got total of 10 umpires out on the ground at any one time. The goal umpires are being made redundant with the vision used every time there's even a remote chance of doubt,

I was an advocate of four because around the contest it was very common for an umpire to be unsighted and either miss calls or straight out guess incorrectly as to whether there was an infringement.

And then they brought it four and now they proceed to set up in such a way that they address none of the above, with three spread out across the ground and the fourth closer to the contest - but given how much the preference is to play down the wings, the fourth is on the same side as the other three.

So I have an opinion as to why we need four and yet also the implementation of it addresses none of my issues.

 

[beatnik]

There's a world of difference been incompetence to bias and on to corruption which is what you're implying.

There is indeed…there’s a strong correlation between incentive and occurrence and we’ve seen a massive growth in AFL betting so the risk has grown proportionately

We’ve seen it in basketball, soccer and cricket…why would the AFL be somehow immune? Plus the AFL take it seriously so it’s reasonable to suggest taking steps (like increasing umpire pay) to reduce the risk

 

[Nathan Barley]

Seeing that Dunkley set shot again, I'm not sure that's mental.

No. Dunkley has a terrible kicking technique, set shot or in play

 

[martinson]

I was an advocate of four because around the contest it was very common for an umpire to be unsighted and either miss calls or straight out guess incorrectly as to whether there was an infringement.

And then they brought it four and now they proceed to set up in such a way that they address none of the above, with three spread out across the ground and the fourth closer to the contest - but given how much the preference is to play down the wings, the fourth is on the same side as the other three.

So I have an opinion as to why we need four and yet also the implementation of it addresses none of my issues.

I can really see your point but with 2 umpires around the contest they're going to disagree often enough when they're both looking at almost the same thing.

To strive for perfection in umpiring is a moonshoot impossibility. In game as random and flatout complicated to umpire as AFL everyone needs to accept that the simpler we make things for the umps the more likely we are to get a fairer and more consistent outcome.

So my personal view is that we have too many umps and then overburden them with interpretations and adjustments to the rule book that seem to confuse rather than illuminate.

But you could talk about it forever ,there's no perfect answer ,perhaps not even a practical one.

 

[dlanod]

I can really see your point but with 2 umpires around the contest they're going to disagree often enough when they're both looking at almost the same thing.

To strive for perfection in umpiring is a moonshoot impossibility. In game as random and flatout complicated to umpire as AFL everyone needs to accept that the simpler we make things for the umps the more likely we are to get a fairer and more consistent outcome.

So my personal view is that we have too many umps and then overburden them with interpretations and adjustments to the rule book that seem to confuse rather than illuminate.

But you could talk about it forever ,there's no perfect answer ,perhaps not even a practical one.

If they disagree it just takes one to blow the whistle.

But that counters the clear directive to "let them play" rather than adhere to existing rules so we just end up with multiple umpires swallowing the whistle.

 

[MSB ROYS]

My concern is that they quickly call for a bounce most times. However, they occasionally they let it run longer in the same circumstances and give a HTB free. To me, this could be open to manipulation - either consciousnessly or more likely unconsciously.

 

[buttermuffs]

My concern is that they quickly call for a bounce most times. However, they occasionally they let it run longer in the same circumstances and give a HTB free. To me, this could be open to manipulation - either consciousnessly or more likely unconsciously.

They call it quickly now when the ball is wrapped up fully in the tackle, to avoid the tackler going a step further and taking them to ground and risking a concussion. It was a good change brought in because tackled players were taking advantage of tacklers not taking them to ground and wrestling their arms free and getting an advantageous disposal out. It happened quite a bit in the game we played against Hawthorn, the week before they adjusted the interpretation.

When they let it run longer it’s because the tackled player often has an opportunity to attempt to get rid of it because the tackle isn’t as good. They could have an arm free with the ball or only be wrapped up around the waist. In this situation they are going to give the tackled player a bit more time to attempt a disposal, because it’s HTB if they don’t.

The Rayner HTB in the last is a good example, he was given extra time because his arm with the ball was free and he didn’t do anything. The Saints player five minutes later was also given time on the boundary because his arm with the ball was free. He made no attempt after a while and the umpire called play on when he dropped it eventually after doing nothing to try and get rid of it. Perfect example of a missed call.

Like you said some situations can look almost identical regardless. Sometimes they are mistakes, and sometimes we miss something the ump picked up. It’s a challenge because the interpretation changed mid season so no doubt when an umpire is a bit fatigued they may revert to old habits.

 

[Dalions]

They call it quickly now when the ball is wrapped up fully in the tackle, to avoid the tackler going a step further and taking them to ground and risking a concussion. It was a good change brought in because tackled players were taking advantage of tacklers not taking them to ground and wrestling their arms free and getting an advantageous disposal out. It happened quite a bit in the game we played against Hawthorn, the week before they adjusted the interpretation.

When they let it run longer it’s because the tackled player often has an opportunity to attempt to get rid of it because the tackle isn’t as good. They could have an arm free with the ball or only be wrapped up around the waist. In this situation they are going to give the tackled player a bit more time to attempt a disposal, because it’s HTB if they don’t.

The Rayner HTB in the last is a good example, he was given extra time because his arm with the ball was free and he didn’t do anything. The Saints player five minutes later was also given time on the boundary because his arm with the ball was free. He made no attempt after a while and the umpire called play on when he dropped it eventually after doing nothing to try and get rid of it. Perfect example of a missed call.

Like you said some situations can look almost identical regardless. Sometimes they are mistakes, and sometimes we miss something the ump picked up. It’s a challenge because the interpretation changed mid season so no doubt when an umpire is a bit fatigued they may revert to old habits.

From where I sit at the Gabba I had a direct line to the umpire behind Rayner and he was basically motioning for a holding the ball call as soon as Rayner got the ball.
I thought it was a terrible call.

 

[Elixuh]

The thing that will haunt me from this game is that they forced Joe to be chaired off after the game, against his will #freejoe

 

[dlanod]

The thing that will haunt me from this game is that they forced Joe to be chaired off after the game, against his will #freejoe

View attachment 2092865

Joe was trying to get off the field first, but he kicked in behind.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Update to this: Man Utd now level at 1-1 and but had a goal to take the lead correctly ruled out because a shot that was going in anyway inadvertently hit an offside player on the goal line.View attachment 2090320

Let me guess, after the goal was overturned, all the cameras panned to the player in question. Let's, for argument's sake, call him Joe. Joe grinned a bit sheepishly, absent-mindedly twirled his moustache, stuck his tongue out in mild exasperation, and ambled off to set up for the free kick against.

 

[Tom14]

Let me guess, after the goal was overturned, all the cameras panned to the player in question. Let's, for argument's sake, call him Joe. Joe grinned a bit sheepishly, absent-mindedly twirled his moustache, stuck his tongue out in mild exasperation, and jogged off to set up for the free kick against.

Joe-shua Zirkzee was looking very sheepish, almost as if he wanted to go sit on the fence for a bit.

 

[braddsey]

The thing that will haunt me from this game is that they forced Joe to be chaired off after the game, against his will #freejoe

View attachment 2092865

I got vertigo just watching that.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Finals, as they say, are a whole new ball game - and a good thing they are, too, because if we dish up more of that slop, it’s mothballs.

Willingness to share the footy good tonight, execution not so. The Harlem globetrotter blind overhead handball shite needs to go straight in the bin.

Very happy with Noah’s return.

I noticed we raised an obscene amount of money for some cause tonight. I would be diverting a hefty portion of whatever that was towards hiring a better shrink.

Yeah great to see Noah back. The numbers indicate his inclusion was a big step in the right direction. We conceded 3 goals from stoppages, but all of those were from centre bounces. So 0 goals conceded from any around the ground stoppages, let alone defensive 50 stoppages. I know Essendon aren't blessed with a plethora of small forward options, but you can only play against who is out on the field, and I thought Noah acquitted himself well.

By comparison, against Collingwood we conceded 2 goals from centre bounces but another 4 from around the ground stoppages. Against the Giants it was 4 from centre bounce and another FIVE from around the ground stoppages (this was a real mess).

So I think I'm keeping Noah in the side even if Starce is available. McKenna tho I think would make a decent and potentially game-changing sub.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Could not remember any times tonight when we were streaming forward and kicking the ball inside 50, no hit up targets seemed to be on the menu tonight. I seriously could not remember anyone trying to chip a ball 20 metres to anyone leading up to the ball carrier.

Cam had a couple of shots where instead of trying to nail it from 50, he sat it on Charlie’s head in the goal square. He wasn’t the only one.
Over-corrected on last week and particularly for Cam it’s going away from what made him great in his purple patch this season.
He needs to recognise his strength and power and take those kicks.

CC needs to mix it up and come at the ball. He plays like Josh Jenkins lately… wants it all at the back or on the goal line

Yep, all this.

We have this obsession at times with having all our forwards play as high up the ground up as possible. Maybe the intention is to help with our transition defence, not quite sure. I suspect it's horses for courses, but I thought we looked a lot better in the most recent St Kilda game when we had Joe deliberately playing off (forward of) his man, seemingly in an attempt to draw his opponent away from congestion and lengthen the field.

The problem when you play as high as our forwards do, is that when we get quick ball forward there's really no other option but to lead hard back with the flight of the ball. The more of this I see the more I'd like to see us hold our forwards closer to goal as much as possible.

This would allow them time and space to lead up to the ball carrier. I think we see the occasional lead in this manner but they are so rare that I don't think our midfielders expect it, so often they don't even see it happening. If we made this more of a feature of our game, we'd become more predictable to our midfield and I think we'd see more of those leads get hit.

In the meantime, holding forwards closer to goal also creates space for our midfielders and high half forwards to get creative and use their skills. I think a lot of our problems in our front half (not just our goal kicking but also actually generating high quality scoring opportunities) stem from the fact that the middle of the field in our games is often pretty congested and messy, caused in large part by the insistence on opening up our forward line.

The other thing holding forwards deeper does is it makes it much harder for an opposition defence to rebound. More numbers in our forward line should make it easier for us to apply pressure, lock the ball in, and get a stoppage if we're unable to score.

The main downside to this is it may impact our transition defence. We saw a couple of our forwards (Logan Morris at one point) get back inside defensive 50 to take a couple of timely intercept marks. These guys can't be everywhere at once, so it's a real question of what do we value? Defending strongly or an enhanced ability to cash in territory dominance and scoring opportunities?

 

[bungalow_bill]

Who'd want to be an umpire.

Seriously.

Would need a bottle proof helmet for starters *

* Only required at Carlton games

 

[Grasshopper17]

I think it has spread across the team now. When Morris first came in he made the most of every opportunity and even when dropped back to the VFL he kicked 4. They all have the yips it seems, Jo, Charlie, Rayner, Bailey and he was our good one. McCluggage has started to nail them admiringly of a low base. I can't think of a single player I'd want kicking for my life at the moment - maybe Zorko.

We have two week to get the confidence back so we will see what Fagan comes up with.

I was reading about a really good golfer, who started his warm up with around 30 cm putts that were so simple to get he would knock every one in, over and over. When asked why he did that he said he wanted to hear the noise the ball made falling into the cup every time so when he got out on the course, no matter where he was on the greens he could just imagine his putt going in and making that noise.

It's a mind thing, not a skill thing, maybe as soon as someone has a set shot one of our other players immediately goes over and just says, "mate, just imagine the crowd when this kick goes over the goal umpires head".

It's different, but what ever we are doing, time to try something else.

I agree... It sounds counterintuitive, but we should be attempting easier shots at training, which I alluded to last week

Do we even practice kicking for goal from 20 metres out directly in front? Or do we think that is too easy and spend all our time kicking the tough shots from 40m out on the boundary? I mean, sure, if you're nailing shots from 40m out on the boundary, of course we should be nailing them from 20m out directly in front. But the mind doesn't work like that. If you haven't practiced it to the extent that you could basically do it in your sleep, you haven't practiced it enough.

Imagine a tennis player deciding to only practice their overhead smash and never their back court forehand. A soccer player who only wants to practice doing the rainbow instead of dribbling and passing. A bowler who spends all their time practicing his slower ball but can't put the ball on a hanky 5 times out of 6. These guys are gonna find themselves out of action pretty quickly.

At training I'd be marking straight lines from each behind post to the front corners of the centre square. That's the corridor. And then an arc 30m from goal. This is your zone of certainty. You should be kicking 9 out of 10 from there. Practice kicking from this region over and over again. Then once you've nailed it, move onto your trick shots or whatever: the ones nobody really expects you to make anyway.

This sounds a bit boring. It SHOULD be boring. But if you really want to spice things up a bit, you could do a lot worse than bringing the goal posts closer together This would also make it much easier to identify any flaws in technique.

 

[Grasshopper17]

I just posted about this in the coaching thread. We are just fatigued. Week off and we are back.

The effects of sleep extension on the athletic performance of collegiate basketball players - PubMed

Improvements in specific measures of basketball performance after sleep extension indicate that optimal sleep is likely beneficial in reaching peak athletic performance.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So, the quality and quantity of sleep you get can affect elite level sporting performance?

What? Fair dinkum??

Yet we play mostly night games, and then train in the mornings? Yep, makes sense

 

[Gadzorks]

So, the quality and quantity of sleep you get can affect elite level sporting performance?

What? Fair dinkum??

Yet we play mostly night games, and then train in the mornings? Yep, makes sense

So basic. The paper was about increasing average sleep for improvement. I. Imagine those players with young kids would love a couple of extra hours.

I agree with training - train when you play. Get your body rhythm set, and do all the meetings etc in the mornings. Except they like physio etc after training so they'd have to change their hours as well..

 

[knaf]

Yeah great to see Noah back. The numbers indicate his inclusion was a big step in the right direction. We conceded 3 goals from stoppages, but all of those were from centre bounces. So 0 goals conceded from any around the ground stoppages, let alone defensive 50 stoppages. I know Essendon aren't blessed with a plethora of small forward options, but you can only play against who is out on the field, and I thought Noah acquitted himself well.

By comparison, against Collingwood we conceded 2 goals from centre bounces but another 4 from around the ground stoppages. Against the Giants it was 4 from centre bounce and another FIVE from around the ground stoppages (this was a real mess).

So I think I'm keeping Noah in the side even if Starce is available. McKenna tho I think would make a decent and potentially game-changing sub.

Yes I don’t know how many loose ball gets he collected, but the difference Noah made in gathering the ball in congestion was pretty obvious. Over the previous weeks when the ball hit the ground I would expect the opposition to score every time.

McKenna would be a reasonable sub. Would prefer a fit Reville as he has the flexibility to play in more positions.