Autopsy Round 3, 2021: Hawks lose to Cats, Easter Monday

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Roger Rogerson

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 9, 2006
8,052
11,145
Malvern East
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Both Frost and Howe are experienced players and week after week make poor errors. How long can they be carried.

Howe getting split off from chasing Guthrie and giving away a 50m. Round 1 he stuffed up the stand rule. He always drags the ball in and gets caught. Regular faller over too if you watch closely. Not much happening upstairs. The Hawks love his enforcer quality as there are very few in the side but if his form doesn't improve I can't see him holding his spot.

Frost god bless his effort but too many basic errors and also the undisciplined knock over of Selwood behind play. I mean you are an experienced player you need to set an example of excellence not go for balls one handed and be a headless chook.

The other player I have been less than impressed with is Phillips. He is a pretty damn limited player both physically and with his decision making. Not the player I thought he was going to be. I reckon he is just surviving at the moment. Not great with his defensive running either. Not sure whether it is laziness or bad habits. Will give him another week but pretty keen to see what Downie can bring.

Ceglar no marks for the game. Wow.
 

TylerDurden

Premium Platinum
Mar 5, 2007
13,391
38,611
Lou's Tavern
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Both Frost and Howe are experienced players and week after week make poor errors. How long can they be carried.

Howe getting split off from chasing Guthrie and giving away a 50m. Round 1 he stuffed up the stand rule. He always drags the ball in and gets caught. Regular faller over too if you watch closely. Not much happening upstairs. The Hawks love his enforcer quality as there are very few in the side but if his form doesn't improve I can't see him holding his spot.

Frost god bless his effort but too many basic errors and also the undisciplined knock over of Selwood behind play. I mean you are an experienced player you need to set an example of excellence not go for balls one handed and be a headless chook.

The other player I have been less than impressed with is Phillips. He is a pretty damn limited player both physically and with his decision making. Not the player I thought he was going to be. I reckon he is just surviving at the moment. Not great with his defensive running either. Not sure whether it is laziness or bad habits. Will give him another week but pretty keen to see what Downie can bring.

Ceglar no marks for the game. Wow.
Phillips will find the footy but he's a battler. We need the experience at present, but he won't be the answer in the longer term.
 

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Hawk_francais

Premiership Player
Sep 20, 2015
3,370
6,662
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Both Frost and Howe are experienced players and week after week make poor errors. How long can they be carried.

Howe getting split off from chasing Guthrie and giving away a 50m. Round 1 he stuffed up the stand rule. He always drags the ball in and gets caught. Regular faller over too if you watch closely. Not much happening upstairs. The Hawks love his enforcer quality as there are very few in the side but if his form doesn't improve I can't see him holding his spot.

Frost god bless his effort but too many basic errors and also the undisciplined knock over of Selwood behind play. I mean you are an experienced player you need to set an example of excellence not go for balls one handed and be a headless chook.

The other player I have been less than impressed with is Phillips. He is a pretty damn limited player both physically and with his decision making. Not the player I thought he was going to be. I reckon he is just surviving at the moment. Not great with his defensive running either. Not sure whether it is laziness or bad habits. Will give him another week but pretty keen to see what Downie can bring.

Ceglar no marks for the game. Wow.
Meh, Frost probably saves us 2-3 goals every week, he works so hard to make a contest and his athleticism allow him to actually make it happen. Not to mention his ‘go-forward’ mindset which often finds us a few metres of space to start an attack. I can deal with a few skill errors along the way. Our defenders all played like champs yesterday.

On Howe: the stand free kick he gave up was in the preseason. Yesterday I realised for the first time why he’s given games, though he’s seemingly a ‘foot-soldier’. It’s because each week he’s in the handful of players who give the required effort for 4 quarters. That’s a quality that is missing BIG TIME in our side, even among some of our most talented. Every time he’s in the contest he’s having a crack, and when the opposition are well on top, it’s often him I see laying tackles, going for unlikely smothers. As long as Moore, Worpel, Morrison, Brockman, Kosi, Lewis and even O’Meara continue to fall away for a quarter here and there, Howe is a good chance to be selected.

Phillips... hardly sighted offensively, but if the coaching group are happy I’d guess he’s doing all that’s required and will improve as he gets to know his teammates.

Another shoutout to Scrimshaw who was a four-quarter performer yesterday, glad this episode of coach’s amnesia has come to an end.
 

VandoHawk

Premiership Player
Oct 2, 2014
4,013
12,246
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Both Frost and Howe are experienced players and week after week make poor errors. How long can they be carried.

Howe getting split off from chasing Guthrie and giving away a 50m. Round 1 he stuffed up the stand rule. He always drags the ball in and gets caught. Regular faller over too if you watch closely. Not much happening upstairs. The Hawks love his enforcer quality as there are very few in the side but if his form doesn't improve I can't see him holding his spot.

Frost god bless his effort but too many basic errors and also the undisciplined knock over of Selwood behind play. I mean you are an experienced player you need to set an example of excellence not go for balls one handed and be a headless chook.

The other player I have been less than impressed with is Phillips. He is a pretty damn limited player both physically and with his decision making. Not the player I thought he was going to be. I reckon he is just surviving at the moment. Not great with his defensive running either. Not sure whether it is laziness or bad habits. Will give him another week but pretty keen to see what Downie can bring.

Ceglar no marks for the game. Wow.
Frost was terrible on the weekend but that was probably his worst game in Hawthorn colours. He makes mistakes but since arriving at Hawthorn his endeavour, second efforts and line-breaking ability have been great and his mistakes haven't been any worse than those around him. He's also one of the few enforcers we currently have in the side.

Howe & Phillips are role players and until somebody is really knocking the door down at Box Hill they'll continue to get games. It's also fairly tough on Phillips, having to cross over and suddenly be our number one winger.

Very disappointed in Ceglar though. Was hoping he was primed for a big year.
 

hk89

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 12, 2009
7,843
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Melbourne
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not alot of difference is there...We aren’t that inexperienced, and have plenty of experienced players to win a game like that one.
The difference is a bit easier to see on this page:

The average age difference isn't massive for probably the reason SA Hawk mentions - Burgoyne.

However there is a fairly significant games experience difference. Interestingly, we're not really that different in the sub-100 gamer profile, with them having 10 and we having 12. The big difference is that a big chunk of our very experienced players walked out the door at the end of last season, so we only had 5 with over 150 games, while Geelong had 10. That's a fairly large difference at the top-end of the experience range. It is also why Geelong's biological clock is ticking very loudly now. With so many over 30 years old (similar to us last year) they really need to pounce right now, although because of factors like making out like bandits with Kelly, they are not as completely f’ed at the youth end as we'd like them to be (hence the similar sub-100 gamer profile to us).
 

TylerDurden

Premium Platinum
Mar 5, 2007
13,391
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Lou's Tavern
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The difference is a bit easier to see on this page:

The average age difference isn't massive for probably the reason SA Hawk mentions - Burgoyne.

However there is a fairly significant games experience difference. Interestingly, we're not really that different in the sub-100 gamer profile, with them having 10 and we having 12. The big difference is that a big chunk of our very experienced players walked out the door at the end of last season, so we only had 5 with over 150 games, while Geelong had 10. That's a fairly large difference at the top-end of the experience range. It is also why Geelong's biological clock is ticking very loudly now. With so many over 30 years old (similar to us last year) they really need to pounce right now, although because of factors like making out like bandits with Kelly, they are not as completely f’ed at the youth end as we'd like them to be (hence the similar sub-100 gamer profile to us).
They traded all 3 Kelly picks for Cameron, who is nudging 30 himself.
 

HODGEYROAD

Brownlow Medallist
May 10, 2007
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Bonbeach
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The difference is a bit easier to see on this page:

The average age difference isn't massive for probably the reason SA Hawk mentions - Burgoyne.

However there is a fairly significant games experience difference. Interestingly, we're not really that different in the sub-100 gamer profile, with them having 10 and we having 12. The big difference is that a big chunk of our very experienced players walked out the door at the end of last season, so we only had 5 with over 150 games, while Geelong had 10. That's a fairly large difference at the top-end of the experience range. It is also why Geelong's biological clock is ticking very loudly now. With so many over 30 years old (similar to us last year) they really need to pounce right now, although because of factors like making out like bandits with Kelly, they are not as completely f’ed at the youth end as we'd like them to be (hence the similar sub-100 gamer profile to us).
We aren't playing as inexperienced lineups as is being made out, vastly younger than recent seasons, but teams like Essendon are playing more kids than us.
 

hk89

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 12, 2009
7,843
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Melbourne
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They traded all 3 Kelly picks for Cameron, who is nudging 30 himself.
Didn't they only receive one future pick for Kelly, and the others were in the 2019 draft? So given the deals were different years, it seems only one of those first Kelly picks went on Cameron? Or perhaps they traded some of them on for future first rounders? They seemed to have used at least one of the Kelly picks in the year they got it (pick 16 on Cooper Stephens who hasn't played a game for them yet). Certainly 3 the first rounders for Cameron means they are not setup for the future as well as they could have been, but when you make a GF, it is hard not to have another big roll of the dice in the following year if the opportunity to grab a players as good as Cameron comes along.

Similar strategy didn't work out well for us, and signs so far this year are not good for Geelong, but they should start to look better with Danger and Cameron both out there, so too early to call it a failed strategy yet.
 

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Strapping Young Lad

previously grumbleguts
Apr 19, 2006
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However there is a fairly significant games experience difference. Interestingly, we're not really that different in the sub-100 gamer profile, with them having 10 and we having 12. The big difference is that a big chunk of our very experienced players walked out the door at the end of last season, so we only had 5 with over 150 games, while Geelong had 10. That's a fairly large difference at the top-end of the experience range.
Clarkson will always keep an eye on the level of experience in the side, to balance the number of players who are at risk of going away from the plan or who need the direction to keep our system from bending.

It’s why he stood by Stratton, Pop and even Gibbo while people wanted them replaced for having regressed.

That being said, our forward line at the moment is one of the most inexperienced we’ve ever put out there over the course of his coaching career.
 

Judd2Sewell

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 31, 2008
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We know they guys like Howe and Ceglar are not the answer, they are simply placeholders ATM. No other team would be playing them.

We would be better off without them in the side for a variety of reasons, so the sooner a younger player comes in for them the better for our long term development. Though Howe will give his all and that's all you can ask of fringe best 22 role players.

Frost, for all his mistakes, can make up for it in other areas. The good far outweighs the bad, unlike with the other two though.

Same too with Phillips, who has shown a sustained level of form that Howe and Ceglar could only dream of. We need a hard running winger that can accumulate. If he hasn't taken a step in his form by this time next year then I'd be a little more concerned.
 

HairyO

Brownlow Medallist
Jul 13, 2015
24,697
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Hartigan 50m penalty and the shove Selwood turned in to a downfield cost just as much as Howe and Frost making mistakes.

Wingard 1.3 in a game where 10.9 beat 9.10.

There are many reasons we lost. Picking on 2 incidents is simplistic at best.

If we kicked straighter we would have won. If we didnt give downfields and 50m penalties we would have won. If we werent 10m too high up on defence Scrimshaw would have been in the goal square to block Clark.

Etc.
 

OnTheRocks

Premiership Player
Mar 11, 2016
3,879
5,077
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Hartigan 50m penalty and the shove Selwood turned in to a downfield cost just as much as Howe and Frost making mistakes.

Wingard 1.3 in a game where 10.9 beat 9.10.

There are many reasons we lost. Picking on 2 incidents is simplistic at best.

If we kicked straighter we would have won. If we didnt give downfields and 50m penalties we would have won. If we werent 10m too high up on defence Scrimshaw would have been in the goal square to block Clark.

Etc.
Whoa! Steady on and .....
whipboy.jpg
 

rogiebear93

Norm Smith Medallist
May 17, 2017
6,744
15,473
AFL Club
Hawthorn
The difference is a bit easier to see on this page:

The average age difference isn't massive for probably the reason SA Hawk mentions - Burgoyne.

However there is a fairly significant games experience difference. Interestingly, we're not really that different in the sub-100 gamer profile, with them having 10 and we having 12. The big difference is that a big chunk of our very experienced players walked out the door at the end of last season, so we only had 5 with over 150 games, while Geelong had 10. That's a fairly large difference at the top-end of the experience range. It is also why Geelong's biological clock is ticking very loudly now. With so many over 30 years old (similar to us last year) they really need to pounce right now, although because of factors like making out like bandits with Kelly, they are not as completely f’ed at the youth end as we'd like them to be (hence the similar sub-100 gamer profile to us).
This is the important area to note - Geelong have the following players in their squad between 27 and 24:

Jed Bews
Tom Atkins
Jake Kolodjashnij
Mark O'Connor

We have:

Sam Frost
Tom Mitchell
Tim O'Brien
Jaeger O'Meara
Chad Wingard

Daniel Howe
Jarman Impey
Blake Hardwick
Tom Phillips


It's precisely why I'm not as down on our fortunes as a lot of punters on this board. When you add in Sicily, that's the majority of our key players who still have at least 3-4 of their best years to give considering CD player ratings show players peaking at 30.
 
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Brishawk

Brownlow Medallist
Jan 17, 2008
21,589
37,200
Brisvegas
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Hawthorn
It's also the pressure applied by the opposition. You simply can never replicate it at training.
Crowd noise, the pressure of 4 points on the line, a furious coach.
So many reasons why some players make it, and others can't deal with the stress of gameday.
On the practice green I nail outs from 5m. On the course I can’t make them from 1m. Game day pressure is a massive difference!
 

Pessimistic

Make me an Admin!
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Leaking goals not so much the problem 6th best goals against

v Geelong 64-69 their other games 80-81 Bris 103-91 Adel
v Richmond 49-79 Their other games 117-72 Syd 80-105 Carl
v Essendon 92-91 their other games 119-65 PtA 68-113 StK

we are 2 goals a game (for) behind 2-1 and 100% (or one turnover from F50)

30 goals 25 behinds suggests its not accuracy in the f50
 

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