VFL Round 3 - Sandringham vs Collingwood at Trevor Barker Oval (Pies lost 93-113)

[jackcass]

Never mind Mayne, but Buddy Franklin would be the interesting party.
Very long term contract on BIG money.
Sydney must count it even if he retires.
But say his last two years he goes to the AFL Giants then they would attract the same amounts and if they wanted to say only pay him half, Sydney must carry the other half regardless as the totals exist until the end of the contract period as drawn initially.

In a trade like that I think the contract can be ripped up, bit like Cloke.

 

[left at home]

Never mind Mayne, but Buddy Franklin would be the interesting party.
Very long term contract on BIG money.
Sydney must count it even if he retires.
But say his last two years he goes to the AFL Giants then they would attract the same amounts and if they wanted to say only pay him half, Sydney must carry the other half regardless as the totals exist until the end of the contract period as drawn initially.

If he leaves Sydney and goes to another club, they could agree like Cloke did, and re do contract

 

[Dead Eye Didak]

Chris Mayne will be our Liam Jones. Given a big long term contract and has been an absolute disaster. He is still on Carlscums list, playing VFL. The same will be Mayne for us unfortunately.

 

[left at home]

It's why guys like Goodyear get demoted to the rookie list rather than delisted. We pay for them anyway.

Thanks for the info, was not sure on it, but glad others do

 

[Saintly Viewed]

It's why guys like Goodyear get demoted to the rookie list rather than delisted. We pay for them anyway.

As I understand, every drafted player in main draft must be kept for two years on the list proper regardless.
Payments are salary cap calculated for the two years.
Rookies only get one year, I guess it's rolling if they are to be kept, unsure if there is a time frame.
Their payments count yearly.

Rookies B like Cox, can be paid whatever and it is not salary cap calculated, they can be rookie B for 3 years total.
If they get promoted to the senior list, as Mason is currently, half their salary counts in the cap.
I think the logic is Rookie B is to attract non traditional types to the game and a few extra dollars may help attract players.

As I understand rookies are not paid as much so their salaries are negligible in the scheme of things.

Full list drafted players get certain minimums built in, I believe top draft picks get a bit more.
It's all pretty standard.
Once they complete the initial phases and do their own contracts (with managers) it's when it gets interesting.

For what it's worth, managers get 5% of player contracts (that's standard arrangement; unsure if any managers actually go beyond this take)

 

[Dead Eye Didak]

Our list rebuild over the last few years has left alot to be desired. Get rid of a power forward like Cloke, with no one to replace him, and get Mayne. Just makes no sense. Aish has been a huge disappointment. We havent for some reason looked at drafting or trading for a young power forward to groom. Our 2 top 10 picks, Freeman ( never played a game for us ) and Shaz ( not his fault) but hasnt had the opportunity to develop. We should have drafted in a Peter Wright and developed him, over a couple of years to replace Cloke. Also giving up 2 first round picks for Treloar, and he is a terrific player, still was alot for a midfielder, when we required a young up and coming forward, to develop alongside Moore.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

If he leaves Sydney and goes to another club, they could agree like Cloke did, and re do contract

Correct.
But, initial amounts must stand
Eg Cloke was on say 2017 as 450 k then Collingwood and Dogs must share this in cap.

That's not to say that Cloke walked away and agreed no more contract, that the money paid to him is different say
$400 k only.
So if Bulldogs pay the 400 k Collingwood I imagine would need to carry $50 k in their cap even without paying it.
I think?
The AFL would have to sign off if its different.

I believe the intent is not to let a club play the salary cap to a sneaky advantage.

Let's just say, if Franklin retired early it would feel a disgrace of the AFL to ok it and say contract re-written so swans don't wear it for say two years.

I'd venture one other thing, if Franklin had gone to the AFL Giants, I gave a feeling the AFL may have "excused" a few years on retirement.

 

[Soups]

Chris Mayne will be our Liam Jones. Given a big long term contract and has been an absolute disaster. He is still on Carlscums list, playing VFL. The same will be Mayne for us unfortunately.

Mayne would be getting double what Jones is on.

 

[left at home]

Correct.
But, initial amounts must stand
Eg Cloke was on say 2017 as 450 k then Collingwood and Dogs must share this in cap.

That's not to say that Cloke walked away and agreed no more contract, that the money paid to him is different say
$400 k only.
So if Bulldogs pay the 400 k Collingwood I imagine would need to carry $50 k in their cap even without paying it.
I think?
The AFL would have to sign off if its different.

I believe the intent is not to let a club play the salary cap to a sneaky advantage.

Let's just say, if Franklin retired early it would feel a disgrace of the AFL to ok it and say contract re-written so swans don't wear it for say two years.

I'd venture one other thing, if Franklin had gone to the AFL Giants, I gave a feeling the AFL may have "excused" a few years on retirement.

I would think if both parties agree to cancelled the contract and it is involved in a trade then the money would not be involved in the cap. Only his new contract would be to his new club.
Could be wrong though

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Our list rebuild over the last few years has left alot to be desired. Get rid of a power forward like Cloke, with no one to replace him, and get Mayne. Just makes no sense. Aish has been a huge disappointment. We havent for some reason looked at drafting or trading for a young power forward to groom. Our 2 top 10 picks, Freeman ( never played a game for us ) and Shaz ( not his fault) but hasnt had the opportunity to develop. We should have drafted in a Peter Wright and developed him, over a couple of years to replace Cloke. Also giving up 2 first round picks for Treloar, and he is a terrific player, still was alot for a midfielder, when we required a young up and coming forward, to develop alongside Moore.

These are great points.
My question to you is to say which big forwards were available that we could have drafted or taken.

Two meter Peter, for him it would have meant either no De Goey or no Moore, that draft.
My best analysis says the Club thought with Moore and Cloke being capable that De Goey was the better bet.
Personally I think De Goey is our Swan replacement.

Cloke for various reasons including no longer being the best contested mark, and losing a yard of pace, fell away more dramatically. Whoever is at fault, that was the situation.

Getting Treloar was a huge win for us, maybe it cost us a key forward?

My guess they will look at this draft for the top heavy key forwards and snare one or two.

Then they can build the side with the young Turks of McLarty, Moore, new drafted key forward(s).
Will it work? Unknown.

Our killer was the draft of Scharenberg and Freeman.
At this stage Scharenberg may bear fruit, hope so.
Freeman is gone and alas, cruelled by injury.

If only, if only we got Bontempelli but Dogs pounced before us

 

[barrackers]

My understanding is that normally player and club can negotiate a settlement (usually a lower wage), this lower wage needs to be included in the cap. If the lower amount can't fit under the current year it flows to the next season hence Voss staying on Brisbane's list 1 season after he retired. However fairness for clubs who have a right to match a bid and to stop abuse and even crazier contracts being offered sees restricted free agents, as was the case with Franklin, tied to the contract as it was written. Mayne was an unrestricted free agent though, so I don't know how that sits.

 

[Frank Gallagher]

Our list rebuild over the last few years has left alot to be desired. Get rid of a power forward like Cloke, with no one to replace him, and get Mayne. Just makes no sense. Aish has been a huge disappointment. We havent for some reason looked at drafting or trading for a young power forward to groom. Our 2 top 10 picks, Freeman ( never played a game for us ) and Shaz ( not his fault) but hasnt had the opportunity to develop. We should have drafted in a Peter Wright and developed him, over a couple of years to replace Cloke. Also giving up 2 first round picks for Treloar, and he is a terrific player, still was alot for a midfielder, when we required a young up and coming forward, to develop alongside Moore.

We have Buckley to thank for that, not the list manager, Buckley has completely ****ed our club.

 

[TradeDraft]

Our list rebuild over the last few years has left alot to be desired. Get rid of a power forward like Cloke, with no one to replace him, and get Mayne. Just makes no sense. Aish has been a huge disappointment. We havent for some reason looked at drafting or trading for a young power forward to groom. Our 2 top 10 picks, Freeman ( never played a game for us ) and Shaz ( not his fault) but hasnt had the opportunity to develop. We should have drafted in a Peter Wright and developed him, over a couple of years to replace Cloke. Also giving up 2 first round picks for Treloar, and he is a terrific player, still was alot for a midfielder, when we required a young up and coming forward, to develop alongside Moore.

Was Good Today and Finished last season Strong. Far from a Huge Dissapointment. Freeman doubtful to ever play AFL and Just Bad like with Schaz.

I do agree Picking De Goey was not the Best Move. De Goey be good but we needed Young KPF's

 

[Soups]

Was Good Today and Finished last season Strong. Far from a Huge Dissapointment. Freeman doubtful to ever play AFL and Just Bad like with Schaz.

I do agree Picking De Goey was not the Best Move. De Goey be good but we needed Young KPF's

We need KPF now. But at the time we lost Beams and had Moore coming, so a midfielder was always coming. Having Cloke declining so quickly wouldn't have been in their train of thoughts.

 

[Rorzza]

I see alot of posters plus CFC were impressed with Kirby today, good to see he is kicking gonads. What can this kid become if he can develop a tank? Great pick up, excited!

Alot of speculative and low draft picks but McLarty, Brown, Kirby and Daicos look to be a solid bunch of kids after 3 VFL games.

I was also impressed with McCarthy and Lynch round 1. Thought McCarthy worked himself into the game really well.

Mayne was a ridiculous decision!

 

[ThePhantom777]

Was Good Today and Finished last season Strong. Far from a Huge Dissapointment. Freeman doubtful to ever play AFL and Just Bad like with Schaz.

I do agree Picking De Goey was not the Best Move. De Goey be good but we needed Young KPF's

That's Hine's job... He farked up

 

[ThePhantom777]

We should be bringing Kirby, Shaz, DeGoey and Aish in. Play them the rest of the season in the AFL team, same with Broomhead. See if they're all worth keeping or not. No point playing guys like Blair and Goldsack, they will not be in next premiership team. The other guys might be.

 

[Apex36]

I see alot of posters plus CFC were impressed with Kirby today, good to see he is kicking gonads.

Imagine how impressed they'll be when he stops being so violent and resorting to low blows!

 

[MagpieBat]

Imagine how impressed they'll be when he stops being so violent and resorting to low blows!

Isn't getting enough hugs, obviously...

 

[Apex36]

Isn't getting enough hugs, obviously...

I try to give him more but he keeps kicking my gonads.

 

[35Daicos]

As I understand, every drafted player in main draft must be kept for two years on the list proper regardless.
Payments are salary cap calculated for the two years.
Rookies only get one year, I guess it's rolling if they are to be kept, unsure if there is a time frame.
Their payments count yearly.

Rookies B like Cox, can be paid whatever and it is not salary cap calculated, they can be rookie B for 3 years total.
If they get promoted to the senior list, as Mason is currently, half their salary counts in the cap.
I think the logic is Rookie B is to attract non traditional types to the game and a few extra dollars may help attract players.

As I understand rookies are not paid as much so their salaries are negligible in the scheme of things.

Full list drafted players get certain minimums built in, I believe top draft picks get a bit more.
It's all pretty standard.
Once they complete the initial phases and do their own contracts (with managers) it's when it gets interesting.

For what it's worth, managers get 5% of player contracts (that's standard arrangement; unsure if any managers actually go beyond this take)

You can read all about these sort of rules here if you're interested, Saintly:- http://www.aflplayers.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/CBA-2012-2016-FINAL.pdf

Since they are still negotiating the next CBA I presume those rules would still stand. Termination Payment is covered pages 82-84.

(Page 69)
(g) Football payments to a Rookie:
(i) while on the Rookie List; and/or
(ii) while on the Primary List to replace a long term injured Player, shall not be included in the Total Player Payments of an AFL Club provided that if
the Rookie remains on the Primary List when the long term injured Player is reinstated to the Primary List, Football Payments received by the Rookie in respect of the period after the long term injured Player is reinstated (“the date of reinstatement”) will be included in the Total Player Payments. Those amounts shall include a monthly pro-rata amount of the base payment calculated from the date of reinstatement and also include all Senior Match payments for Matches played on or after that date.

(h) Where a Rookie is promoted to the Primary List, other than as a replacement for a long term injured Player, Football Payments received by the Rookie
after the date the Rookie is placed on the Primary List shall be included in the Total Player Payments of the AFL Club. These amounts shall include a pro rata amount of the base payment, calculated from the date the Rookie is placed on the Primary List and also includes all Senior Match payments for Matches played on or after that date.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

We have Buckley to thank for that, not the list manager, Buckley has completely ****** our club.

I think your point is well made, from your perspective that's fair enough. I personally think the point loses a bit when the melodrama hits, but fair enough too.

Unsure coaches have only say, either way the club as a whole owns its decisions.
Each club has basically 1 in 18 picks in the draft and can trade players deal with free agency etc.

Each club makes decisions based on their views.
Whilst it's easy in hindsight, I think we are like all other clubs just trundling along doing the best we can in the circumstances.

Not every decision is good, not every bad. For every poor decision there are some great ones eg Varcoe, Howe.
Grundy was a steal, Elliot was a steal, Fasolo such that the prince of Perth is was a steal.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

You can read all about these sort of rules here if you're interested, Saintly:- http://www.aflplayers.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/CBA-2012-2016-FINAL.pdf

Since they are still negotiating the next CBA I presume those rules would still stand. Termination Payment is covered pages 82-84.

(Page 69)
(g) Football payments to a Rookie:
(i) while on the Rookie List; and/or
(ii) while on the Primary List to replace a long term injured Player, shall not be included in the Total Player Payments of an AFL Club provided that if
the Rookie remains on the Primary List when the long term injured Player is reinstated to the Primary List, Football Payments received by the Rookie in respect of the period after the long term injured Player is reinstated (“the date of reinstatement”) will be included in the Total Player Payments. Those amounts shall include a monthly pro-rata amount of the base payment calculated from the date of reinstatement and also include all Senior Match payments for Matches played on or after that date.

(h) Where a Rookie is promoted to the Primary List, other than as a replacement for a long term injured Player, Football Payments received by the Rookie
after the date the Rookie is placed on the Primary List shall be included in the Total Player Payments of the AFL Club. These amounts shall include a pro rata amount of the base payment, calculated from the date the Rookie is placed on the Primary List and also includes all Senior Match payments for Matches played on or after that date.

Fantastic.
Many thanks.
Might explore this in more depth.
Besides the terminology (I imagine legal type writing) it's a good read I'm sure.

Cheers

 

[MagpieBat]

I try to give him more but he keeps kicking my gonads.

Your gonads are very kickable, Mr Know-It-All...

 

[Bad Horse]

Anyone who went able to give an assessment of who might be ready to step up to the seniors?