AFLW Round 4 - Carlton v Richmond at IKON PARK, Saturday 3.10pm AEDT

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NimFromSudan

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You’re being unrealistic with your expectations on several fronts
1. Who said anything about finals
2. How did Collingwood and Carlton perform in first couple of seasons ,how are we tracking by comparison
3. If you think we could have drafted a better player than Hosking with the pick it cost us , youre in la la land. There’s five or so very good players that come out of the women’s draft the rest pffft
4 we came bottom last year , we won’t this year
1. When I said "The bones of a finals team", i meant a framework to build towards finals in the next few years.

2. They have had three years of preferred draft access in a smaller competition, and could afford to have a crack at a flag straight out of the gate when their odds were one in eight. But now, they can on sell middle aged players to desperate clubs like us (see Melbournes strategy) and top up for years' to come.

3. Hosking is seven years older than a draftee, is at her peak now and is a good player but not a special player. I'd take Eliza McNamara any day, because she'll get to where Hosking is within those seven years and in the meantime, she's already a handy player. This is what I mean about how we're taking 100 points of value now but giving up 200 over the life of a career.
A player like Grace Campbell could fill the same role as Hosking at a third the price, but we let the cheap option walk and paid overs for her replacement. We need veterans to fill the gaps, yes, but paying top 15 picks for them is mortgaging the future.

4. Congratulations to us. But the question is do we have the tools to build up to the next rung next year? If you take this list and add picks 4, 18, 32, 46, are we rising relative to Carlton with picks 7, 21, 35 and 49?

I'd say we've got at least two really crappy seasons ahead of us, and we can't afford to keep crapping away what little draft value we do have access to by constantly falling at tactical hurdles.
 

Teen Wolf

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3. Hosking is seven years older than a draftee, is at her peak now and is a good player but not a special player. I'd take Eliza McNamara any day, because she'll get to where Hosking is within those seven years and in the meantime, she's already a handy player. This is what I mean about how we're taking 100 points of value now but giving up 200 over the life of a career.
That wasn't an option. It was an assistance pick which had to be traded. The AFL's logic was that it would allow Richmond to bring in a seasoned midfielder and immediately become more competitive, and they were right (nevertheless, they should have done more and sooner).
 

Bojangles17

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1. When I said "The bones of a finals team", i meant a framework to build towards finals in the next few years.

2. They have had three years of preferred draft access in a smaller competition, and could afford to have a crack at a flag straight out of the gate when their odds were one in eight. But now, they can on sell middle aged players to desperate clubs like us (see Melbournes strategy) and top up for years' to come.

3. Hosking is seven years older than a draftee, is at her peak now and is a good player but not a special player. I'd take Eliza McNamara any day, because she'll get to where Hosking is within those seven years and in the meantime, she's already a handy player. This is what I mean about how we're taking 100 points of value now but giving up 200 over the life of a career.
A player like Grace Campbell could fill the same role as Hosking at a third the price, but we let the cheap option walk and paid overs for her replacement. We need veterans to fill the gaps, yes, but paying top 15 picks for them is mortgaging the future.

4. Congratulations to us. But the question is do we have the tools to build up to the next rung next year? If you take this list and add picks 4, 18, 32, 46, are we rising relative to Carlton with picks 7, 21, 35 and 49?

I'd say we've got at least two really crappy seasons ahead of us, and we can't afford to keep crapping away what little draft value we do have access to by constantly falling at tactical hurdles.
You’re deluded in how much depth of talent there is out there , Hosking is 23 and the odds in AFLW of drafting a player as good as her outside of top 10 are slim . That’s a FACT . To think we could have recruited via the draft entirely the backbone of a flag team is also delusional , refer to point 1. And we ve participated in 2 AFLW drafts not 3. Campbell was ok , a good day would be 10p , Hosking has proved a fair bit better than that already
 

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Cdog71

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Theres no doubt we buggered up a few things but I know I’ve enjoyed the season alot more this year so far.
It is about winning but you only do that by improving and talent is only part of a team the expansion sides in the mens game showed its not enough.
 

NimFromSudan

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That wasn't an option. It was an assistance pick which had to be traded. The AFL's logic was that it would allow Richmond to bring in a seasoned midfielder and immediately become more competitive, and they were right (nevertheless, they should have done more and sooner).
I know, but given we used 18 for Cordner I suggest we should have used the 15 on her and tried to get a late pick back, and passed on Hosking altogether.
 

NimFromSudan

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You’re deluded in how much depth of talent there is out there , Hosking is 23 and the odds in AFLW of drafting a player as good as her outside of top 10 are slim . That’s a FACT . To think we could have recruited via the draft entirely the backbone of a flag team is also delusional , refer to point 1. And we ve participated in 2 AFLW drafts not 3. Campbell was ok , a good day would be 10p , Hosking has proved a fair bit better than that already
It's nitpicking but she's definitely 25.

And for the 100th time, I'm talking about drafting a player that will add long term value, not about getting someone who is as good as Hosking from season #1.
 

RunningBounce

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No question a good player , being careless and reckless to point of causing serious injury is nothing about good , more about being a thug . She’s better than that and needs to think about her tackling
Twice in 5 minutes on the same opponent. It's an action that is not easy to perform. Once is careless. She's a Carlton player, through and through, IMO.
 

RunningBounce

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I admire the optimism on this board but the truth is this list doesn't have the bones of a finals team as it's currently constituted. We'll still get a little bit better over this season as the structure comes together, but we don't have enough good young players to ensure we'll improve ahead of or even in line with clubs like Melbourne, WB or frankly almost every other club in the league.

Losing top 20 picks for Hosking and Frederick, and other picks for D'Arcy and Dargan is a recipe for being mediocre for a long time. We're trading 200 points of future value for 100 points today, and it's going to cost us in 2023 and 2024 and 2025 etc.

Cordner might be the only trade where we made value last year and even there it's only because she's also released Seymour and Miller.

And ill make the point again on Egan. She doesn't have to be a gun to constitute a list-building failure. She just has to be as good as a pick-50-something replacement player because that's all it would have cost us to match a bid on Akec or Woodward etc.
I see your general point, and mostly agree. The draftee kids coming in have been better than established players, and I reckon that will continue. You have to get great value to make recruiting an older player return the cost of recruiting them.

But we've gotta build a cohesive team, not simply accumulate talent. Remember what our men's team looked like ten years ago, when Shane Tuck got dropped to get games into Conca and Brad Helbig? Building the team required some good, honest tryers - like Chaplin - to take the heat from the talented kids - like Rance.

IMO, we now have the bones, and we really needed them after we failed to get them in place in "Season 1". Time to go to the draft.

Let's also not forget we're ten games into a 100 year project. If I hear anyone else say we haven't won a game for "a season and a half", I'll spew.
 

NimFromSudan

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I see your general point, and mostly agree. The draftee kids coming in have been better than established players, and I reckon that will continue. You have to get great value to make recruiting an older player return the cost of recruiting them.

But we've gotta build a cohesive team, not simply accumulate talent. Remember what our men's team looked like ten years ago, when Shane Tuck got dropped to get games into Conca and Brad Helbig? Building the team required some good, honest tryers - like Chaplin - to take the heat from the talented kids - like Rance.

IMO, we now have the bones, and we really needed them after we failed to get them in place in "Season 1". Time to go to the draft.

Let's also not forget we're ten games into a 100 year project. If I hear anyone else say we haven't won a game for "a season and a half", I'll spew.
100% agree on needing senior players to take pressure off the young ones. Gold Coast men's use of Hugh Greenwood as an inside mid a perfect example of this strategy working well recently.

But the Chaplins and Greenwood's of the world come cheaply, not at the cost of top 20 picks.

Look at what these stopgap players and mature age recruits cost us in the AFL:

Chaplin - Free (free agent)
Morris - Free (1 pick downgrade)
Houli - Free (Pre-season draft
Sam Lloyd - Free (drafted at 66)
Taylor Hunt - Free (free agent)
Kane Lambert - Free (late rookie)

Grigg - Cheap (Andrew Collins)
Maric - Cheap/Average (pick 37)

Hampson - Average/Overpaid (pick 32)
 

tigs2010

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I see your general point, and mostly agree. The draftee kids coming in have been better than established players, and I reckon that will continue. You have to get great value to make recruiting an older player return the cost of recruiting them.

But we've gotta build a cohesive team, not simply accumulate talent. Remember what our men's team looked like ten years ago, when Shane Tuck got dropped to get games into Conca and Brad Helbig? Building the team required some good, honest tryers - like Chaplin - to take the heat from the talented kids - like Rance.

IMO, we now have the bones, and we really needed them after we failed to get them in place in "Season 1". Time to go to the draft.

Let's also not forget we're ten games into a 100 year project. If I hear anyone else say we haven't won a game for "a season and a half", I'll spew.
We haven't won a game for a season and a half though ;)
 

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Bojangles17

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100% agree on needing senior players to take pressure off the young ones. Gold Coast men's use of Hugh Greenwood as an inside mid a perfect example of this strategy working well recently.

But the Chaplins and Greenwood's of the world come cheaply, not at the cost of top 20 picks.

Look at what these stopgap players and mature age recruits cost us in the AFL:

Chaplin - Free (free agent)
Morris - Free (1 pick downgrade)
Houli - Free (Pre-season draft
Sam Lloyd - Free (drafted at 66)
Taylor Hunt - Free (free agent)
Kane Lambert - Free (late rookie)

Grigg - Cheap (Andrew Collins)
Maric - Cheap/Average (pick 37)

Hampson - Average/Overpaid (pick 32)
Stop comparing men’s draft to women’s draft that runs 10 deep it’s ludicrous
 

Stan Judkins

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I admire the optimism on this board but the truth is this list doesn't have the bones of a finals team as it's currently constituted. We'll still get a little bit better over this season as the structure comes together, but we don't have enough good young players to ensure we'll improve ahead of or even in line with clubs like Melbourne, WB or frankly almost every other club in the league.

Losing top 20 picks for Hosking and Frederick, and other picks for D'Arcy and Dargan is a recipe for being mediocre for a long time. We're trading 200 points of future value for 100 points today, and it's going to cost us in 2023 and 2024 and 2025 etc.

Cordner might be the only trade where we made value last year and even there it's only because she's also released Seymour and Miller.

And ill make the point again on Egan. She doesn't have to be a gun to constitute a list-building failure. She just has to be as good as a pick-50-something replacement player because that's all it would have cost us to match a bid on Akec or Woodward etc.
I get where your coming from NimFromSudan and do agree with you
But
1. Regarding Egan, TigermanM2 has stated many times the reasons as to why things turned out the way they did with our initial list build
Sure we made mistakes, which team doesn't
2. The AFLW draft doesn't bat no where deep enough for 8 Vic yeams (State based drafting per team) as opposed to the mens which bats much deeper for 18 Australia wide based teams
We can't have 19-20 year olds getting bashed up early against seasond players from our opponents
3. Hosking, Cordner and D'Arcy were good trades last year, Dargan is young and worth a longer look at
Being mediocre for a long time, because we traded top 20 draft picks for mature players is a subjective argument ATM, let's give it another look in say 2 more years, as top draft picks look good on paper, but as we've seen with the men's team our top picks include busts like Lennon, C.Ellis etc
4. Losing top 20 picks for say Conti (No 1 pick) and Frederick (No 16 pick), i can say with 100% surety that every AFLW club would have done that at the time
O.K. Fredrick hasn't worked out but she was seen as a elite AFLW player (2 x GF, 2 x AA), she's under 25 years of age, let's see where she goes, up or further down. In hindsight who would have thought Griesner for the Saints would be far better?
5. Yes we haven't enough young elite talent yet and there is no guarantees we will have in the next few years to challenge for finals, but that's the nature of the AFLW ATM
For example Dogs plcked G.Newman No 1 last year and J. Fitzgerald No 2 this year
I would say that Saints G.Patrikious is going much better than Dogs G.newman from last years draft, but you could make an argument that this year Dogs J.Fitzgerald and Saints T.Smith are going better than our E.McKenzie
We've had to play S.Molan, H.Burchell et al because we haven't the depth that say North had when they first joined, it is what it is
6. We've played 4 bloody good sides, haven't given up more than 7 goals and have been in the hunt against Pies and big time against the Blues
What more can we do ATM than we have already done? We seem to be improving with every game we play, yeah we're no where near a finals team, but so weren't Pies and Blues in their first couple of years and they had a much better go when they entered the comp
Let's see the pain and suffering that Port, Dons, Hawks and Swans have to go through when they get in (2023-2024?)
 
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Stan Judkins

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That wasn't an option. It was an assistance pick which had to be traded. The AFL's logic was that it would allow Richmond to bring in a seasoned midfielder and immediately become more competitive, and they were right (nevertheless, they should have done more and sooner).
Yes isn't that the aim of the AFLW competition, for all the clubs be relatively even/competitive against each other?
With score lines being somewhere like 60-50, 70-60?
And yes the AFLW should have given even more help to Tigers, Eagles and Suns last year in regards of draft picks/player trades outside draft
 

Stan Judkins

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100% agree on needing senior players to take pressure off the young ones. Gold Coast men's use of Hugh Greenwood as an inside mid a perfect example of this strategy working well recently.

But the Chaplins and Greenwood's of the world come cheaply, not at the cost of top 20 picks.

Look at what these stopgap players and mature age recruits cost us in the AFL:

Chaplin - Free (free agent)
Morris - Free (1 pick downgrade)
Houli - Free (Pre-season draft
Sam Lloyd - Free (drafted at 66)
Taylor Hunt - Free (free agent)
Kane Lambert - Free (late rookie)

Grigg - Cheap (Andrew Collins)
Maric - Cheap/Average (pick 37)

Hampson - Average/Overpaid (pick 32)
Comparing the mens comp (100+ years) to womens comp (4 years) is crazy NimFromSudan
The standard of each comp in regards to the quality and numbers of players are light years apart
 

TigermanM2

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I guess when you are looking at the merits of, say, a trade like Sarah Dargan for pick #45 you probably need to consider the unusual circumstances we were in last year which may have played a part.

Back in 2020, trade period is in the middle of a Melb lockdown. Reduction in staff/volunteers at the club. We need to fast track our players to be at least competitive with the better teams. But how? No training or only training in groups of 10. Who knew how long this would last. Would we have a season at all Most of our players have played 6 games or less at this level and this years draftees haven't played any footy in 12 months and if the next season is cancelled that will be 24 months.

I can see the arguments for a Sarah Dargan. Has some skill. Rated at the Pies. Played 14 games and coming into her 4th AFLW season so knows the level but still only 22 and maybe needs a bit more of an opportunity to get even better. Partner of Sarah Harris so lives in a elite sporting environment already and if full restrictions kick in is probably in a better position than most to have that drive and keep the fitness and skill up. Won't cost much in a trade at #45 vs whoever is available then.

There is a massive massive difference between top 10 and the next 10 so, as others have said, that should give you an idea about #45. It will change as the years move along but given that there appears to be a more reasonable attitude in player worth and players moving clubs in AFLW you can get some decent players at reasonable cost.

Our incredible success as a club in recent times has been built on the back of trading in gun players, recruiting role players (what a success this has been), adding a sprinkling of draftees (with most of them being made to serve their time in VFL) and allowing players to move if they so wish and being very reasonable when asking for something in return. This seems to also be the blue print for our women's team.
 
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RunningBounce

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100% agree on needing senior players to take pressure off the young ones. Gold Coast men's use of Hugh Greenwood as an inside mid a perfect example of this strategy working well recently.

But the Chaplins and Greenwood's of the world come cheaply, not at the cost of top 20 picks.

Look at what these stopgap players and mature age recruits cost us in the AFL:

Chaplin - Free (free agent)
Morris - Free (1 pick downgrade)
Houli - Free (Pre-season draft
Sam Lloyd - Free (drafted at 66)
Taylor Hunt - Free (free agent)
Kane Lambert - Free (late rookie)

Grigg - Cheap (Andrew Collins)
Maric - Cheap/Average (pick 37)

Hampson - Average/Overpaid (pick 32)
Yeah, I think Bo nailed the general direction of my reply. Free market economics explains this. Supply and demand. Plenty of supply of experience, AFL-level men, so they come cheap.

Not so much on the women's side, especially during rapid expansion of the competition, and the equation is complicated by the unknown of how quickly the game will go past the experience players and / or how much improved the quality of each draft crop will be. Phillips vs Mo Hope. Who can say which of the older players will suddenly be a spud?

So we paid overs, but we had to, IMO. I strongly doubt we would have seen the improvement in Jacques, Molan and Miller in the past four games if they weren't playing with Hosking and Cordner.

I reckon your overall point stands - the kids are the safest investment. But, they need a framework to slot into, and we just didn't have that. Did we go too far recruiting older players? IMO, probably one Sarah too many. No time to waste on being angry at a questionable recruiting strategy during a 7 game "season". The time for that is if they load up on older players again!
 
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Phar Ace

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I reckon your overall point stands - the kids are the safest investment. But, they need a framework to slot into, and we just didn't have that. Did we go too far recruiting older players? IMO, probably one Sarah too many. No time to waste on being angry at a questionable recruiting strategy during a 7 game "season". The time for that is if they load up on older players again!
I can see us doing part of that one more time to replace Fredricks if we see no return to her pre 2020 form - unless the draft looks like running deeper.
 

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