Autopsy Round 4: Hawks have mare against Saints

[Pessimistic]

Both are barely in our best line up. Flipper has a tank but has zero right side to his game while Howe just completely stops like a statue when he takes a mark and seems to have no ability to move the ball quickly at any stage.

In the early game our players in traffic constantly used Phillips as the out. And he was always there. He didn’t really set up offence much, and padded his stats slightly. long got involved and looked good

Lynch didn’t play so may lack match fitness. box hill have a bye so any exclusions will get a full rest

 

[toomanysquibs]

Mitchell is trying to play a game style akin to the Tigers, without the cattle to execute it properly.

We don’t have a back 6 anywhere near the Richmond premiership years.

No Grimes / Astbury to lockdown/nullify opposition talls.

Everyone seems to want to be the Vlastuin type who rolls off and intercept marks.

Scrim, CJ, Sicily are all horrendously unaccountable and we’re shown up today.

Our players don’t have anywhere near the quality footskills of a Houli, Edwards, Short, etc.

We kept trying to hit short 45s to the back of the square and got opened up as a result.

“A man needs to know his limitations”

I don't think we're playing at all like Richmond did, we don't just belt the ball forward to run onto it in waves.

Also, Richmond always left their backs in place, even when there where no forwards around them.

We're playing a mix of a few game styles, and we've been getting by till this point because our forward line was working, and we could run over the top of teams.

St. Kilda turned that around by forcing turnovers, nullifying our forwards, and running over the top of us on the rebound.

The more the game went on, the more we tried to force the issue, and the easier they picked us off.

Once a few players dropped off for us, the whole thing unraveled.

St. Kilda were a big step above any opposition we've played this year, they never let us back into the game the way Carlton did. They were too seasoned.

 

[Pessimistic]

I don't think we're playing at all like Richmond did, we don't just belt the ball forward to run onto it in waves.

Also, Richmond always left their backs in place, even when there where no forwards around them.

We're playing a mix of a few game styles, and we've been getting by till this point because our forward line was working, and we could run over the top of teams.

St. Kilda turned that around by forcing turnovers, nullifying our forwards, and running over the top of us on the rebound.

The more the game went on, the more we tried to force the issue, and the easier they picked us off.

Once a few players dropped off for us, the whole thing unraveled.

St. Kilda were a big step above any opposition we've played this year, they never let us back into the game the way Carlton did. They were too seasoned.

Yep, we got the open fwd line v carlton, saints got it against us. I think we improved centre square though

We have a lot of rebound options so the saints did a good job of shutting all of them down mostly. Our intensity was way down though

 

[Elvis Hips]

Hi all, first post here but have spent a fair while in the bigfooty shadows and felt like this result may be a good of a reason as any to start getting involved.

I'm not disappointed with yesterdays game at all. I will agree that some efforts were poor (frost trying to go off the deck when I would like to see him just grab the pill and take the tackle or find a handball) ultimately leading to a saints goal which happened multiple times when we had momentum. The call for some players to be dropped I feel is a little re-active to the result. If Mitchell really wanted to send a message - i would send the exact same team out minus Day and say alright lads show me a response, lets see what you got. Now that the heat is well and truly on from a selection point of view due to good performances in the 2s.

We kept attacking all day, biting off kicks and taking the game on, we would never have done that under Clarko - so yesterday wont be a 1 off, albeit i don't think we will see another kicking performance like that from Hardwick for the rest of his career. We got opened up going the other way as a direct result of still trying to attack, in the last qtr especially. If you turn the ball over in between the arcs you historically get absolutely burnt going the other way, not a heap the midfield/Fwds can do when they put 5-10m on their player when we go forward only for the kick to miss and now they are 10m behind their player. Hill Sinclair and to some extent Butler carved us up because of this, they are notoriously cherry on top players excluding Sinclair who looks a class player after going into the midfield.

We have seen that our best when it clicks is scintillating - we have now seen what happens when it doesn't. There are more lessons out of this for a young team then there would be in a win. We are trying to build a style that will hold up in finals, there is going to be some hurt along the way.

Anyway apologies for waffling on a bit.

 

[madhawksfan]

I'd say Lynch is a lock.

Hopefully he’s good to go as he’ll be a good complement to Reeves.

 

[burner1]

Agreed. This was very noticeable when looking through the tracking on the AFL app. We lacked run.

Agreed Run is one of the few areas where we can often have an advantage over teams. Saints looked quicker and ran harder. Finn and Phillips have important roles in tireless running to stretch defences and create gaps for our hbfs to pierce kicks through. When we’re stagnant through the middle those 45 degree inbound kicks become almost impossible. We still would have got pumped however.

 

[Pessimistic]

Could be a number of changes for the Cats game.

Day will unfortunately miss due to
Concussion, Worpel needs a spell at BH, Ward and CMac both looked tired and Howe could find himself out the side also.

We are definitely a tall short at the moment. Would love Callow to come in and smash into Stewart a few times. Have to reward Long’s form and he is a logical replacement for Worpel.

Phillips and Shiels could provide some much needed grunt in the middle. Thought Finn did okay when he came on and could do a job on Selwood. Would be good to niggle the s**t out of him even just for shits and giggles.

There’s no box hill game so there could be genuine rests. Might be worth resting the 2-4 most in need, rather than selecting match ups

Poor Reeves won’t get a rest though.

 

[Hodgey 15]

Hi all, first post here but have spent a fair while in the bigfooty shadows and felt like this result may be a good of a reason as any to start getting involved.

I'm not disappointed with yesterdays game at all. I will agree that some efforts were poor (frost trying to go off the deck when I would like to see him just grab the pill and take the tackle or find a handball) ultimately leading to a saints goal which happened multiple times when we had momentum. The call for some players to be dropped I feel is a little re-active to the result. If Mitchell really wanted to send a message - i would send the exact same team out minus Day and say alright lads show me a response, lets see what you got. Now that the heat is well and truly on from a selection point of view due to good performances in the 2s.

We kept attacking all day, biting off kicks and taking the game on, we would never have done that under Clarko - so yesterday wont be a 1 off, albeit i don't think we will see another kicking performance like that from Hardwick for the rest of his career. We got opened up going the other way as a direct result of still trying to attack, in the last qtr especially. If you turn the ball over in between the arcs you historically get absolutely burnt going the other way, not a heap the midfield/Fwds can do when they put 5-10m on their player when we go forward only for the kick to miss and now they are 10m behind their player. Hill Sinclair and to some extent Butler carved us up because of this, they are notoriously cherry on top players excluding Sinclair who looks a class player after going into the midfield.

We have seen that our best when it clicks is scintillating - we have now seen what happens when it doesn't. There are more lessons out of this for a young team then there would be in a win. We are trying to build a style that will hold up in finals, there is going to be some hurt along the way.

Anyway apologies for waffling on a bit.

 

[Pessimistic]

Our midfield can’t/won’t defend when we turn the ball over. They’re all ball hunters and no-one sets up defensively to prevent ball movement on turnover. The ease with which St Kilda transitioned the ball through the arcs when we coughed it up was astonishing. Got clean entries with next to no pressure. Our mids turn into witches hats without the footy.

Very often thir mids had 5-6 successful handballs into space, sometimes using the same player twice. We didn’t seem to be able to predict that and at least make a scrap

 

[Blackhawk42]

Last year vs St.Kilda we kicked 9.5.59
This year 10.13.73

9 extra scoring shots.

Both games played out very similarly.

Sams game plan will occasionally leak big scores, but at least gives us a greater opportunity to score ourselves.
This was going to happen eventually.

Learning curves and all that.

 

[grumbleguts]

Hi all, first post here but have spent a fair while in the bigfooty shadows and felt like this result may be a good of a reason as any to start getting involved.

I'm not disappointed with yesterdays game at all. I will agree that some efforts were poor (frost trying to go off the deck when I would like to see him just grab the pill and take the tackle or find a handball) ultimately leading to a saints goal which happened multiple times when we had momentum. The call for some players to be dropped I feel is a little re-active to the result. If Mitchell really wanted to send a message - i would send the exact same team out minus Day and say alright lads show me a response, lets see what you got. Now that the heat is well and truly on from a selection point of view due to good performances in the 2s.

We kept attacking all day, biting off kicks and taking the game on, we would never have done that under Clarko - so yesterday wont be a 1 off, albeit i don't think we will see another kicking performance like that from Hardwick for the rest of his career. We got opened up going the other way as a direct result of still trying to attack, in the last qtr especially. If you turn the ball over in between the arcs you historically get absolutely burnt going the other way, not a heap the midfield/Fwds can do when they put 5-10m on their player when we go forward only for the kick to miss and now they are 10m behind their player. Hill Sinclair and to some extent Butler carved us up because of this, they are notoriously cherry on top players excluding Sinclair who looks a class player after going into the midfield.

We have seen that our best when it clicks is scintillating - we have now seen what happens when it doesn't. There are more lessons out of this for a young team then there would be in a win. We are trying to build a style that will hold up in finals, there is going to be some hurt along the way.

Anyway apologies for waffling on a bit.

I agree with all of this except the bold bit. You can't look a class player and wear a St Kilda guernsey. You may play well, but you can't LOOK the part.

 

[Pessimistic]

Last year vs St.Kilda we kicked 9.5.59
This year 10.13.73

9 extra scoring shots.

Both games played out very similarly.

Sams game plan will occasionally leak big scores, but at least gives us a greater opportunity to score ourselves.
This was going to happen eventually.

Learning curves and all that.

Nine changes too cousins Hanrahan O’Brien and sheils Phillips McEvoy hartigan kosi Jeka out for newk sicily nash McDonald reeves ward djb omeara howe

How does that look to the various best 22s we proposed?

 

[HedgeFund]

Very often thir mids had 5-6 successful handballs into space, sometimes using the same player twice. We didn’t seem to be able to predict that and at least make a scrap

Agree - that’s often a product of them outnumbering us at ground ball (superior work rate) so they had the extra player BUT too many times our mids would try to attack the player with the ball and we’d leave 2 - 3 alone lining up on the open side for an easy switch.

No player with a “head on a swivel” assessing if they were needed and/or where next dangerous spot for the opposition was. Very dumb defending which was easily exploited.

 

[Pessimistic]

Agree - that’s often a product of them outnumbering us at ground ball (superior work rate) so they had the extra player BUT too many times our mids would try to attack the player with the ball and we’d leave 2 - 3 alone lining up on the open side for an easy switch.

No player with a “head on a swivel” assessing if they were needed and/or where next dangerous spot for the opposition was. Very dumb defending which was easily exploited.

Often CJ was in there too, he’s still learning and his enthusiasm sucks him in sometimes. Not on his own though. Often a player who looks embarrassed is the one who made the effort to try to address a situation already looking lost

 

[Hawk88]

As others have stated it starts and ends at the midfield for us and has so for the last 3 years

We desperately need some more blood in the middle and need to change up the mix this year. I would prefer us losing like yesterday if we played Ward, macca, Nash, Long and Newcombe as predominant mids (fitness willing)

I am just so sick of seeing Worpel, Mitch and Omeara in the middle getting smash via clearances or worse via elite spread from stoppages which the saints were able to get going

Our spread from a stoppage is almost non existent at times and shows lack of effort/fitness

P.S Time to give Worpel a rest at Box Hill

 

[HedgeFund]

Often CJ was in there too, he’s still learning and his enthusiasm sucks him in sometimes. Not on his own though. Often a player who looks embarrassed is the one who made the effort to try to address a situation already looking lost

They will have plenty of vision to work with to point out players when they’ve failed to come forward to defend or transitioned back too slowly. Hopefully a direct and honest assessment

 

[TheFourPillars]

They will have plenty of vision to work with to point out players when they’ve failed to come forward to defend or transitioned back too slowly. Hopefully a direct and honest assessment

St Kilda forwards were pretty damn lazy throughout the game not chasing our backs. They waited and hoped for a turnover which duely came and rewarded their laziness.

 

[flinchfree]

You'd have to say Finn is the worst kick in the team, yet Mitch keeps picking him. It can't be for his running ability alone. He must see something else in him. He's keeping Phillips out at this stage.

I'd say he's just giving him a proper run at the level. Some players actually improve with better talent around them, or facilitate those around them exposing their talents by supplying.

At the moment I don't see it. Yes he runs and for sure creates space, but he neither has moments of high quality himself nor links others well enough to showcase his teammates.

Not a strong mark, not a tackling beast, not a clever handballer, weak by foot.
I mean, it may all just blossom out of nowhere, but at this time that's what it will appear as.

 

[James Buchanan]

At the moment I don't see it. Yes he runs and for sure creates space, but he neither has moments of high quality himself nor links others well enough to showcase his teammates.

I swear sometimes people on here are myopic when it comes to players they're deathriding.

He literally did all of the things you said he doesn't do on the weekend.

 

[burner1]

I'd say he's just giving him a proper run at the level. Some players actually improve with better talent around them, or facilitate those around them exposing their talents by supplying.

At the moment I don't see it. Yes he runs and for sure creates space, but he neither has moments of high quality himself nor links others well enough to showcase his teammates.

Not a strong mark, not a tackling beast, not a clever handballer, weak by foot.
I mean, it may all just blossom out of nowhere, but at this time that's what it will appear as.

He’s an inside mid often playing in other roles (eg hb/wing). Look at how worpel/JOM go when not inside mid for example - Finn on a relative basis is doing fine. And if you focus what we can do - massive tank and work ethic, quick, strong and clean hands there’s enough to work with.

 

[burner1]

St Kilda forwards were pretty damn lazy throughout the game not chasing our backs. They waited and hoped for a turnover which duely came and rewarded their laziness.

Was it laziness or somewhat planned structure in keeping forwards in place for the turnover? St kilda did a lot of things right in unpicking our gameplan by sweating on the inbound kicks and capitalising on turnover.

 

[CHUBBSS]

Was it laziness or somewhat planned structure in keeping forwards in place for the turnover? St kilda did a lot of things right in unpicking our gameplan by sweating on the inbound kicks and capitalising on turnover.

This, we looked horrid tho, equally as bad as st kilda were good.

The rewatch isn’t pleasant

 

[flinchfree]

I swear sometimes people on here are myopic when it comes to players they're deathriding.

He literally did all of the things you said he doesn't do on the weekend.

You know we're discussing Finn Maginness right?

The things he 'LITERALLY' did not do:
Strong marks - 0 / Any marks - 0
Tackling beast numbers - 1 tackle in the game
Clever handballs - out of his 6 total handballs, which would you describe as clever?
Kicks - out of his 7 total kicks, 3 were clangers

I'm dying to hear what he LITERALLY did all weekend.

 

[flinchfree]

He’s an inside mid often playing in other roles (eg hb/wing). Look at how worpel/JOM go when not inside mid for example - Finn on a relative basis is doing fine. And if you focus what we can do - massive tank and work ethic, quick, strong and clean hands there’s enough to work with.

Agree, his best moments training over summer was when he was allowed to go on the ball inside and simply hunt it, burst out into some clear space, and give off by hand.
But summer training isn't very much about accountable football. Will be interesting to see if Sam gives him a proper go at inside mid at senior level.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

I didn't watch the game - and sounds like I picked the right day to get boozy in Edinburgh Gardens instead of watching the footy.

A smashing like that is never a good thing because it's a failure of personnel, system and intensity.

So it's good for Sam's attacking game plan to have the result that Clarko always feared and worked against. It means we get to see how Sam reacts. Will he change directions suddenly? Or back in Maginess and co?
Will he change up the midfield? (putting Wingard in there would change everything if Wingard could play full games).

Has he got the balance between youth and experience wrong? (The only real shift would be bringing in Shiels and playing more of Phillips - not much more experience on the list aside from the LTI McEvoy).

There's always next week.
And at least we didn't lose to GC.