Autopsy Round 5, 2021: Hawthorn defeated by Melbourne

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Lickmesocks

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Serious question for all the "we are sh!t, play the kids, we have no talent" people. Where do you think we'd be now if Sicily Gunston and Day had've played every game?
Probably in the same position to be brutally honest as we had those 3 early last season and we were still getting towelled up and struggling to kick 8-10 goals in a game.
 

On Topic

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Probably in the same position to be brutally honest as we had those 3 early last season and we were still getting towelled up and struggling to kick 8-10 goals in a game.
Similar spot but disagree. I reckon it gets us over the line against the Cats game (assuming their outs stay the same). Closer game against Freo and potentially steal it. Less of a blowout against Dees.
 

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kirbatron

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Serious question for all the "we are sh!t, play the kids, we have no talent" people. Where do you think we'd be now if Sicily Gunston and Day had've played every game?
doesnt really matter as my view is all clubs get injuries... end of the day we need a deeper more talented squad.

saying that, i thought we'd be bottom 4 & are. no dramas. still hard to watch the poor skill level & dumb decision making tho.
 

savagelunchbox

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Serious question for all the "we are sh!t, play the kids, we have no talent" people. Where do you think we'd be now if Sicily Gunston and Day had've played every game?
Gunston wouldn't have made a significant difference. He's not a stand under the ball and mark the high kick forward. When the delivery is like how it almost always is over the past 5+ years and he doesn't have a tall, marking forward around him, he's struggles to kick goals regularly, especially against good sides. Same with Bruest. So the Geelong, Richmond and Melbourne games would have seen him kick maybe 4-5 goals in total.

Sicily would have pushed someone out of the side. Looking at the role he plays, chances are it was our best player this year who would have been left to rot in the VFL. Our defense has been solid for most of the year, so his inclusion isn't going to suddenly make our forwards lead and kick goals, or our midfield gain a leg of speed and some kicking skills.

Day has played this year and we still looked average expert for that outburst 4th quarter against the cheats. Against Richmond, while solid, we still lost by like 5 goals.

While these 3 players are all starters in this side, they're not filling the holes in our squad, unless, of course, Gunston goes against coaches instructions and leads; playing to his strength. None of the above names are mids with speed and kicking skills plus an eye for goals. None of those names are rucks who aren't dumb footballers or aging rapidly. None of them are 195+cm tall forwards who can stand under a ball at the top of the square and mark it.
 

Judd2Sewell

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Gunston wouldn't have made a significant difference. He's not a stand under the ball and mark the high kick forward. When the delivery is like how it almost always is over the past 5+ years and he doesn't have a tall, marking forward around him, he's struggles to kick goals regularly, especially against good sides. Same with Bruest. So the Geelong, Richmond and Melbourne games would have seen him kick maybe 4-5 goals in total.

Sicily would have pushed someone out of the side. Looking at the role he plays, chances are it was our best player this year who would have been left to rot in the VFL. Our defense has been solid for most of the year, so his inclusion isn't going to suddenly make our forwards lead and kick goals, or our midfield gain a leg of speed and some kicking skills.

Day has played this year and we still looked average expert for that outburst 4th quarter against the cheats. Against Richmond, while solid, we still lost by like 5 goals.

While these 3 players are all starters in this side, they're not filling the holes in our squad, unless, of course, Gunston goes against coaches instructions and leads; playing to his strength. None of the above names are mids with speed and kicking skills plus an eye for goals. None of those names are rucks who aren't dumb footballers or aging rapidly. None of them are 195+cm tall forwards who can stand under a ball at the top of the square and mark it.
We'd be in the exact same spot, or at best we beat Freo over there, which would have been a good win.

Melbourne were missing May, Ben Brown, Harmes and Fritsch (not a huge loss but a handy player that was in rather good form).

Geelong were missing Danger, Cameron, Menegola, Higgins and Rohan (Geelong's version of TOB).
 

savagelunchbox

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We'd be in the exact same spot, or at best we beat Freo over there, which would have been a good win.

Melbourne were missing May, Ben Brown, Harmes and Fritsch (not a huge loss but a handy player that was in rather good form).

Geelong were missing Danger, Cameron, Menegola, Higgins and Rohan (Geelong's version of TOB).
Fritsch is the type of player who bobs up and kick 3 goals against us. Like Castagna (sp?).
 

TheFourPillars

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I wonder what the game plan was in the first qtr with players leading and marking in the forward line. I wonder how that happened Clarkson must have been furious at qtr time and told them to stop doing it. Because leading at the ball carrier is something we do not do. Can't wait for Gunston to come in defy Clarko's instructions. He will be playing for Box hill soon. Poor old Moore still kept trying to lead at the ball carrier and kept getting the ball punched away. That will learn him. Do what the coach says don't lead. Stay stagnant. Don't move, Don't run.
 

Judd2Sewell

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I wonder what the game plan was in the first qtr with players leading and marking in the forward line. I wonder how that happened Clarkson must have been furious at qtr time and told them to stop doing it. Because leading at the ball carrier is something we do not do. Can't wait for Gunston to come in defy Clarko's instructions. He will be playing for Box hill soon. Poor old Moore still kept trying to lead at the ball carrier and kept getting the ball punched away. That will learn him. Do what the coach says don't lead. Stay stagnant. Don't move, Don't run.
Did someone forget to change accounts or is this satire TFP?
 

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rei154

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When I'm at the ground I tend to watch what's happening off the ball rather the actual ball.

At stoppages I see our structure is pretty good and we must put a lot of work into it because we seem to do really well in that area despite not having a Dusty, Fyfe, Bont or Cripps side mid in there.

OUR BIGGEST PROBLEM is our forward line.

Our forwards don't lead out when they're supposed and then lead out when they're supposed to double back. They also get caught ball watching and don't adhere to forward structure and end up running into each other and not in a good way.

Not much our mids or any half backs can do if no option is presenting. We lack SPEED and NOUS in our front half. There is a serious disconnect from the midfield to the forward line. It mainly comes down to TWO things: personell and experience.

Unfortunately we tried to get Lynch but he decided differently. We lost Cyril which was probably our biggest loss in our club's history, even more than Jarman.

We just have to suffer as front half play improves over time or we find a gun forward.
Ok nice, I like this post.
But do you think that the real reason we struggle could be a combination of everything you've said here as well as what Bris was saying?
Isolating issues is good but it makes more sense to look at them in tandem and I can see how these issues feed off eachother poorly.
 

Bremner20

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Agree. Everyone keeps mentioning him as if he’s some champion waiting to return. I recall the same thing with Brand a few years ago and where is he now? That said, where is Finn? Have heard very little about his progression. Would be keen to see him have a shot this year.
Higher expectations than Brand he was considered the best intercept KPD in last years draft hence why we took him so early and a few reports said he was ready to go as a senior player .
 

Bremner20

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What game did you watch. Finn took out their best midfielder in the first half, and then went to the player that flogged us in the first half and took him out of the game.
So you’d put him in the 1sts on the strength of that performance ?? I hope he turns out to be that big bodied midfielder that we all are hoping for , but right now he’s timid and a long way off justifying a spot in the seniors .
 

Brishawk

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The Dee's structured up differently at the stoppages after QTR time, Tom McDonald said as much after the game. We didn't adjust.
According to the AFL app:
Clearances (Hawks-Dees)
Q1 8-7
Q2 13-6
Q3 6-7
Q4 8-13

It was only in the last quarter that they got on top. They were huge in the centre. Obviously there could be differences in the quality of the exits but on raw numbers we were well in the contest.
 

Strapping Young Lad

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So you’d put him in the 1sts on the strength of that performance ?? I hope he turns out to be that big bodied midfielder that we all are hoping for , but right now he’s timid and a long way off justifying a spot in the seniors .
A timid tagger, who made 8 tackles, kept his opponent to a handful of kicks and got in the best players for executing his role.


Ok then.
 

Judd2Sewell

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So you’d put him in the 1sts on the strength of that performance ?? I hope he turns out to be that big bodied midfielder that we all are hoping for , but right now he’s timid and a long way off justifying a spot in the seniors .
I'd put him into the seniors to play on Laird this week.
 

tommyk72

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According to the AFL app:
Clearances (Hawks-Dees)
Q1 8-7
Q2 13-6
Q3 6-7
Q4 8-13

It was only in the last quarter that they got on top. They were huge in the centre. Obviously there could be differences in the quality of the exits but on raw numbers we were well in the contest.
I was just thinking about how our success with the clearances this year correlates with your analysis Brishawk.

I think everything you described is on point, and when we lose a clearance we’re super exposed to breakaways. However, we are winning many more clearances (let’s not discuss quality) than last year. Perhaps this is part of the evolution of the game style. We now know how to hunt the ball better. The next step is to coordinate all of it better, and make sure we have better protection.

Ironically, given what people have said about us playing not to lose, it seems our stoppage setup is really aggressive.

Some really weird/interesting/strange/inconsistent things going on strategically.
 

darthmann

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yeah i have to completely disagree with all this talk about us playing slow, defensive-minded footy with our gameplan

compare how we played vs Melb this year to around the same time last year

it's night and day

the reason we can't score isn't because we're defensive-minded. it's because we're sh*t.
 

Mercy Seat

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yeah i have to completely disagree with all this talk about us playing slow, defensive-minded footy with our gameplan

compare how we played vs Melb this year to around the same time last year

it's night and day

the reason we can't score isn't because we're defensive-minded. it's because we're sh*t.
100%.

You can see exactly what we are trying to do, it's just we have the ability to pull it off not very often. It results in us having to over possess it in tight quarters.

I'd prefer this to playing a dour, defensive game that plays to our lack of ability.
 

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