Autopsy Round 5, 2021: Hawthorn defeated by Melbourne

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Lickmesocks

Club Legend
Oct 2, 2019
1,212
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AFL Club
Hawthorn
Gunston wouldn't have made a significant difference. He's not a stand under the ball and mark the high kick forward. When the delivery is like how it almost always is over the past 5+ years and he doesn't have a tall, marking forward around him, he's struggles to kick goals regularly, especially against good sides. Same with Bruest. So the Geelong, Richmond and Melbourne games would have seen him kick maybe 4-5 goals in total.

Sicily would have pushed someone out of the side. Looking at the role he plays, chances are it was our best player this year who would have been left to rot in the VFL. Our defense has been solid for most of the year, so his inclusion isn't going to suddenly make our forwards lead and kick goals, or our midfield gain a leg of speed and some kicking skills.

Day has played this year and we still looked average expert for that outburst 4th quarter against the cheats. Against Richmond, while solid, we still lost by like 5 goals.

While these 3 players are all starters in this side, they're not filling the holes in our squad, unless, of course, Gunston goes against coaches instructions and leads; playing to his strength. None of the above names are mids with speed and kicking skills plus an eye for goals. None of those names are rucks who aren't dumb footballers or aging rapidly. None of them are 195+cm tall forwards who can stand under a ball at the top of the square and mark it.

Some Quick ball movement and overlap and Gunners some space to lead???? No Way. That sort of play would make 50% of coach’s positions redundant .
 

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Brishawk

Brownlow Medallist
Jan 17, 2008
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yeah i have to completely disagree with all this talk about us playing slow, defensive-minded footy with our gameplan

compare how we played vs Melb this year to around the same time last year

it's night and day

the reason we can't score isn't because we're defensive-minded. it's because we're sh*t.
In the last quarter the demons were threatening and kicked a pass in board. Howe spoiled the ball and omeara took it cleanly and hit Moore by foot, putting him into space. Moore takes off with Cj beside him. Ahead of him he had Kosi and Breust. Breust was charging forward towards the wing from the centre square. Kosi had idled forward and then turned and started jogging back to where Breust was running to brining his defender with him. Moore probably not a long enough kick to ensure he cleared Kosi’s defender to hit Breust and Kosi was boundary side and showing no real intention of getting free of his opponent. If Kosi leads at the ball carrier and provides a short option the kick to Breust is easy. Moore tried to force the handball to Cj and turns it over.

I haven’t done a forensic analysis of the game looking for this problem but I did notice it on several occasions. Our inexperienced forward line hurts even when we move it cleanly out of defence. A similar thing happened moments later when frost took off from the defensive fifty and the tall forward (couldn’t tell who but I think it was Nash or Kosi) just trotted away from frost at a distance frost couldn’t reach instead of leading at the ball carrier. Frost tried to kick it to Worpel in the centre but it wasn’t on and was intercepted. Gunston will help a lot and hopefully can help coach the other talls.

we are using O’Brien close to goal most of the game. He is averaging a career high 1.5 goals a game and 1.25 goal assist per game off of a career low 7.4 touches per game. Hasn’t missed a kick at goal this season. If we actually get it down to him quickly he is in great goal scoring form 😉
 

MasterSamurai

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Mar 21, 2017
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According to the AFL app:
Clearances (Hawks-Dees)
Q1 8-7
Q2 13-6
Q3 6-7
Q4 8-13

It was only in the last quarter that they got on top. They were huge in the centre. Obviously there could be differences in the quality of the exits but on raw numbers we were well in the contest.
Post clearences. Structuring up to make it harder for Hawthorn to move the ball sideways or backwards instead of frwd .
 

On Topic

Team Captain
Jan 7, 2018
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Constantly amazes/bewilders/amuses me that every whiney moron on BigFooty thinks they know what the game-plan/coaches instructions are, and that this is where our problems lie.
I think it’s more passion than anything.

Everyone wants us winning and has noticed something they did/didn’t like during a particular game and then they express it one way or another.
 

Kanga Commando

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Apr 10, 2017
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I tried to watch the game in the supposed un-emotional cold light of losing...

1st quarter
3 frees missed on hawks, and one dubious one against shiels. After that umps generally not too bad..
frost is just dumb, and doesnt learn the umpires are watching him
CJ is a star. give him the damn contract now
we have no idea how to play against gawn
nash is of no use at all
wingard needs to be on the ball more
whatever morrison has taken over summer, feed it to the rest of the team.

2nd quarter
I know its a tall order, but umpires need to stand behind the player with the ball when they call "stand". i like the rule, but play on needs to be called more. the interesting thing is this new rule simply enforces the idea of the screen that hawthorn did for several years, but was castigated by many for doing so. now our actions are part of the laws of the game.
CJ still a star
our kicking into the forward line is beyond awful. if we could hit a target, or the targets lead well, we would have been about 3 goals up at half time. at least kick into space...?
melksham has the second most punchable face in the AFL ( after Papley ). Oliver working on joining that club.
nash going from no use to major liability.
really glad to see frost flatten oliver. Welcome to the club.
im not sure what wingard has to do to get a free. hit in the head in q1, hit after a kick in q2

Q3
Kosi presenting at HB for our kick ins a couple of times now. i like it... more pls..
really glad scrimshaw in the side. plays a smart game and read it well
staggered the commentators can get hawks players names wrong so often, even in the third quarter. i feel like im watching the first practice match against the dogs
CJ... Just do it.
Better from TOB.
still not sure what the umps have against wingard.
Umpires stood behind the player with the ball. play on. fair enough. Hawks of course have the kick..

Q4
7 unanswered goals.
better game from hanrahan....
solid from JOM.
CJ ++
Scrim +
Say no more.FMD.
 

MrPremiership

Brownlow Medallist
Nov 18, 2013
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Feel dirty saying this, but should we have gone harder for Ben Brown?

Could have taken the heat off our other developing tall forwards, given them time to develop and assistance in that forward line
 

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Mercy Seat

Premiership Player
Sep 23, 2008
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Feel dirty saying this, but should we have gone harder for Ben Brown?

Could have taken the heat off our other developing tall forwards, given them time to develop and assistance in that forward line
No thank you. We are a rebuilding club, and he just pushes and extra one of Kosi or Lewis out of the side each week.
 

Hawk_francais

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Sep 20, 2015
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No thank you. We are a rebuilding club, and he just pushes and extra one of Kosi or Lewis out of the side each week.
Yeah imagine if we had a player like that in the side.

Besides, we’re not rebuilding. Rebuilds are for wussy clubs like Melbourne. And they don’t work anyway. You can only win premierships by rorting free-agency.
 

Strapping Young Lad

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Apr 19, 2006
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Feel dirty saying this, but should we have gone harder for Ben Brown?

Could have taken the heat off our other developing tall forwards, given them time to develop and assistance in that forward line
Most likely would have if we didn’t already have Patton on the list.

We took Patton on in the hope that he would stand alongside Lewis, take some heat and allow Mitch to flourish.
 

Billyc

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Oct 17, 2009
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Most likely would have if we didn’t already have Patton on the list.
Suspect that is right. I thought Brown was an excellent pick up at the time for Melbourne (given his goals over many years) and think he will be even better with the rule changes if he can get fit. A fit Brown with the space being afforded to leading forwards could be a missing piece for Melbourne
 

MrPremiership

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Nov 18, 2013
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No thank you. We are a rebuilding club, and he just pushes and extra one of Kosi or Lewis out of the side each week.
Or TOB.

But, isn't another view that it aids the development of Kosi/Lewis because it gives them a lesser defender each week? Would help our ball movement too if players had confidence in a tall option
 

big_rig

Debutant
Aug 8, 2015
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Suspect that is right. I thought Brown was an excellent pick up at the time for Melbourne (given his goals over many years) and think he will be even better with the rule changes if he can get fit. A fit Brown with the space being afforded to leading forwards could be a missing piece for Melbourne
How do the new rules actually give more space to leading forwards? I see people say this all the time but I'm not sure which rule actually does that
 

MrPremiership

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Nov 18, 2013
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How do the new rules actually give more space to leading forwards? I see people say this all the time but I'm not sure which rule actually does that
i think the new rules (stand!) give the ball user more options to move the ball quickly, which then leads to less flooding by the opposing team. This is what leads to more space for the forwards.
 

grumbleguts

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Aug 14, 2011
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Feel dirty saying this, but should we have gone harder for Ben Brown?

Could have taken the heat off our other developing tall forwards, given them time to develop and assistance in that forward line
NNNNNNOOOOOOOO!!!!

We have 20 minutes of actual play a quarter. He takes 1 shot at goal and that number reduces to 15. No f**king way.
 

Simon Crawshay

Club Legend
Jun 4, 2016
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Nup, chip it backwards and sideways methodically and very slowly. Inch your way up the ground bit by bit. Forget trying to score as long as the opposition doesn’t right?
The change in how we play currently from our style of play during the 3 peat years to now is really quite astounding when you think about it.

During the 3 peat we elevated football to another level altogether, we weren't just playing for wins we were playing to raise the game as a pure spectacle to heights it had never been before (and has never reached again in my humble opinion).

We moved the ball at lightning speed through speed of mind and an entire team of players who had beautiful skills by hand and foot. We had a perfect balance between rock hard defense transitioning into free flowing offence and we kicked over 100 points on a weekly basis (sometimes well over).

It was the AFL version of the Dutch "Total Football" in Soccer or the Chicago Bulls "Triangle Offence" in the NBA.

I remember watching a game at Docklands against the Doggies in this era and I swear it felt like the Footscray players didn't even touch the ball. The teams control over the game and their style of play that day was supreme.

Now I am the first to admit that our team now is miles away in the talent stakes from those heady times but when I compare how we play now........

It is like comparing a Van Gogh masterpiece to a Codex Procedural Manual :'(. There is no joy in what we do.

Its not just about wins, its about the spirit of football (which made the win against Fremantle in 2013 the best of the 3 peat in my opinion as it was a win for free flowing, attractive footy over Ross Lyons abomination of a style).

But now we are the Freo!

Ponder that......

Apologies for the slightly florid post but I think we all need to remember how amazing a spectacle our game can be and we shouldn't settle for the depressing, dour product I have seen put out over the last 3 years.
 

tommyk72

Premium Platinum
Apr 10, 2007
3,596
4,750
Melbourne
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The change in how we play currently from our style of play during the 3 peat years to now is really quite astounding when you think about it.

During the 3 peat we elevated football to another level altogether, we weren't just playing for wins we were playing to raise the game as a pure spectacle to heights it had never been before (and has never reached again in my humble opinion).

We moved the ball at lightning speed through speed of mind and an entire team of players who had beautiful skills by hand and foot. We had a perfect balance between rock hard defense transitioning into free flowing offence and we kicked over 100 points on a weekly basis (sometimes well over).

It was the AFL version of the Dutch "Total Football" in Soccer or the Chicago Bulls "Triangle Offence" in the NBA.

I remember watching a game at Docklands against the Doggies in this era and I swear it felt like the Footscray players didn't even touch the ball. The teams control over the game and their style of play that day was supreme.

Now I am the first to admit that our team now is miles away in the talent stakes from those heady times but when I compare how we play now........

It is like comparing a Van Gogh masterpiece to a Codex Procedural Manual :'(. There is no joy in what we do.

Its not just about wins, its about the spirit of football (which made the win against Fremantle in 2013 the best of the 3 peat in my opinion as it was a win for free flowing, attractive footy over Ross Lyons abomination of a style).

But now we are the Freo!

Ponder that......

Apologies for the slightly florid post but I think we all need to remember how amazing a spectacle our game can be and we shouldn't settle for the depressing, dour product I have seen put out over the last 3 years.
How do we look compared to 2003-7? I reckon I'm seeing some similarities to what we were doing back then. 1/ Building from the backline - really making sure the defense was solid. 2/ He's testing and pushing all the lads to play to a game plan. They're not clicking yet, but we had similar sort of stuff happening back in 2003-07.
 

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