Autopsy Round 6, 2020: Fremantle v St.Kilda

[plugger66]

I don't know about multiple times but most definitely on the weekend they were instructed to not go as quickly as they had been, and they failed to do it.

Fact of the matter is we were 37 points up with 45 mins to play. Clearly there was a lack of effort on show from Q2-Q4 on the weekend, if the players don't want to put in the effort it doesn't matter if we had Allan Jeans in the coaches box. And if the message isn't communicated clearly enough we have premiership players out on the field that can direct the group just fine given the commanding lead we had. It's incredibly poor.

No one doubting it was extremely poor. What I can’t get is how it’s only extremely poor on one group when there is a group above who are paid to teach these guys. As I said earlier those who had better access to what they could see is we didn’t counter act their changes they made at the first break. That is certainly a coaches role.

 

[George]

No one doubting it was extremely poor. What I can’t get is how it’s only extremely poor on one group when there is a group above who are paid to teach these guys. As I said earlier those who had better access to what they could see is we didn’t counter act their changes they made at the first break. That is certainly a coaches role.

Players role to implement it which they didn't so again I disagree.

 

[gringo2011]

When did I say they didn't change anything? Not the reason we lost though.

We were 37 points up and let them back into the game.

It's all on the players.

They could have had them drop back to block up space and reload at the half time break. Could have gone man on man etc. Coaches have lots of tricks to lock down a good lead.

 

[George]

They could have had them drop back to block up space and reload at the half time break. Could have gone man on man etc. Coaches have lots of tricks to lock down a good lead.

They did all of that. Our players didn't implement it. Not sure how it's a coaching issue. Squarely on the players, they are to blame, they need to stop taking the piss.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Our players thought the job was done. They are immature and inexperienced, they don't know how to win. No defensive running, hack balls into the fifty, and a complete lack of work ethic when we were challenged cannot be arrested by the coach - it has to be done by the people directly responsible for addressing and changing it - the players.

So maybe, when the coaches could see what was happening, as we certainly could, and considering Roughy wasn’t there on the bench, Ratts might have thought about heading down there to have a physical presence around the players?

If, as you say, they are immature and inexperienced, and clearly lacking in leadership at that time, then that’s what they would have needed and the coaches should have seen it. Bit of both for mine.

Just a thought.

 

[gringo2011]

They did all of that. Our players didn't implement it. Not sure how it's a coaching issue. Squarely on the players, they are to blame, they need to stop taking the piss.

I don't think Ratts likes reacting which might be a deliberate thing to shake loose old habits, but he doesn't seem to be a coach who's into changing during a match. It looked very similar to the North game where we just seemed to hold the same failing game plan up and looked like we were waiting for it to just switch our way again.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Ratten's been a part of three premierships, I think he would know how to coach a side to see out a game.

He helped coach a team with leadership in spades - they probably didn’t need help to do it.
He does need to realise our team is a little different in this regard.

 

[gringo2011]

He helped coach a team with leadership in spades - they probably didn’t need help to do it.
He does need to realise our team is a little different in this regard.

It's a shame that there isn't a Hodge type out there that wants one last year teaching leadership to a bunch of wet lettuce leaves. Hanners might teach training standards but he doesn't appear to be that hard edge, respect demander like Hodge. You'd see Hodge rallying the troops and they'd puff out their chests and hang on his words at Brisbane. Our current leaders look like they'd lead you into David Jones perfume counter not into battle.

 

[George]

So maybe, when the coaches could see what was happening, as we certainly could, and considering Roughy wasn’t there on the bench, Ratts might have thought about heading down there to have a physical presence around the players?

Just a thought.

Look I get that some want to lay some of the blame on the coaches but IMO when a side is 37 points up 15 minutes into the game I don't care how experienced you are you should know how to win the game from there. Our performance was an indictment on the playing group. We have one of the most damaging players in the competition getting 8 kicks at 63% DE. We have senior players unable to help arrest the momentum of the opposition. We have players sprinting towards the 50 when we have the ball and leaving our defenders outnumbered on the counter. Not just in the final two minutes but many times throughout the second half. At one point we had Marshall Carlisle and Howard all going for a mark, nobody manning Fyfe and he takes the mark. Kicks the goal. This is just a few examples of why our inexperienced playing group cannot handle adversity.

We did it against North Melbourne in Round 1. We did it for a period against Carlton. Every time we either have expectations placed on us or we are challenged, we fail. This has been happening long enough to tell me this isn't a coaching issue this is a playing group issue. Ratts has been part of one of the greatest sides of the modern era, I'm pretty confident he knows how to win games of football. Only difficulty there is that he can't actually go onto the ground and do what the players are meant to. He spoke after the game about our failure to change the pace of the game. He instructed them to do it and they failed. Now if the messaging wasn't clear enough surely the leaders we have out there would be able to communicate the message effectively to the rest of the playing group. We have premiership players running around out there. If even they couldn't communicate to the group to slow it down/play on our terms, then it is the fault of the players.

This is a pattern of behaviour that goes beyond this year.

It's not like we were up by a couple of goals and lost it at the death. We were 37 points ahead with 45 minutes of game time remaining and we managed to lose that game. It's just completely unacceptable, no amount of coaching can fix that. Players are either in or they're out and quite clearly they weren't up for a challenge on the weekend.

 

[George]

I don't think Ratts likes reacting which might be a deliberate thing to shake loose old habits, but he doesn't seem to be a coach who's into changing during a match. It looked very similar to the North game where we just seemed to hold the same failing game plan up and looked like we were waiting for it to just switch our way again.

What was the game plan?

He helped coach a team with leadership in spades - they probably didn’t need help to do it.
He does need to realise our team is a little different in this regard.

We have premiership players out there. We don't need 22 premiership players to direct a team to manage a 37 point lead with 45 minutes left.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Look I get that some want to lay some of the blame on the coaches but IMO when a side is 37 points up 15 minutes into the game I don't care how experienced you are you should know how to win the game from there. Our performance was an indictment on the playing group. We have one of the most damaging players in the competition getting 8 kicks at 63% DE. We have senior players unable to help arrest the momentum of the opposition. We have players sprinting towards the 50 when we have the ball and leaving our defenders outnumbered on the counter. Not just in the final two minutes but many times throughout the second half. At one point we had Marshall Carlisle and Howard all going for a mark, nobody manning Fyfe and he takes the mark. Kicks the goal. This is just a few examples of why our inexperienced playing group cannot handle adversity.

We did it against North Melbourne in Round 1. We did it for a period against Carlton. Every time we either have expectations placed on us or we are challenged, we fail. This has been happening long enough to tell me this isn't a coaching issue this is a playing group issue. Ratts has been part of one of the greatest sides of the modern era, I'm pretty confident he knows how to win games of football. Only difficulty there is that he can't actually go onto the ground and do what the players are meant to. He spoke after the game about our failure to change the pace of the game. He instructed them to do it and they failed. Now if the messaging wasn't clear enough surely the leaders we have out there would be able to communicate the message effectively to the rest of the playing group. We have premiership players running around out there. If even they couldn't communicate to the group to slow it down/play on our terms, then it is the fault of the players.

This is a pattern of behaviour that goes beyond this year.

It's not like we were up by a couple of goals and lost it at the death. We were 37 points ahead with 45 minutes of game time remaining and we managed to lose that game. It's just completely unacceptable, no amount of coaching can fix that. Players are either in or they're out and quite clearly they weren't up for a challenge on the weekend.

Nope, I’m not laying the blame solely on the coaches, But it takes two to tango.

You said the team are immature and inexperienced ( and clearly lacking in leadership imo) - in which case it is definitely up to the coaches to coach them how to stop momentum shifts, how to slow down the play, how to hang onto the ball in the final minutes of the game. If it’s a mental thing, then that’s also on the coaches.

As I don’t believe a win is ever solely due to the players or the coaches, so too for a loss.

 

[jwikked]

To make things even more depressing, our 1st quarter score was the equal highest 1st quarter score of all teams this year.

 

[Ducky Tie]

Put me in George’s camp. Clarko says it himself. Coaches teach game plans and systems. They can only do so much. The media loves to bang on about specific tactics that can change during the season but the basis of a team is their system. Ratten’s system got us to be 6 goals up at quarter time. The players deviated from that. Doesn’t mean he’s perfect or that coaches can’t impact on game day, but the blame lies with the players.

 

[Diehard Saint]

We have premiership players out there. We don't need 22 premiership players to direct a team to manage a 37 point lead with 45 minutes left.

2 players. One of whom was having a very ordinary day and won a premiership years ago at a very young age. It doesn’t equate that just because they’ve won a premiership it makes them leaders on the field.

You keep saying Ratts has coached teams to premierships etc. if you cant see the difference in quality between the leaders they had at Hawthorn and what we have at the Saints then I can’t convince you.

I’m not down at Ratts at all, pretty bullish in fact, but he’s working with a different team here as he’s busy finding out.

 

[George]

Nope, I’m not laying the blame solely on the coaches, But it takes two to tango.

You said the team are immature and inexperienced ( and clearly lacking in leadership imo) - in which case it is definitely up to the coaches to coach them how to stop momentum shifts, how to slow down the play, how to hang onto the ball in the final minutes of the game. If it’s a mental thing, then that’s also on the coaches.

As I don’t believe a win is ever solely due to the players or the coaches, so too for a loss.

So if it's the coaches fault for not teaching the players how to stop momentum and slow down the play, what blame do you lay on the players?

Just the lack of game sense to not understand the opposition is fighting back and to not address this out on the field is staggering to me especially when the coach has directed them already to slow the pace of the game down a bit.

Given the lead we had and the time left in the game I can't see how it's anyone but the players fault. Clearly Ratten advised the players of what needed to be done in the final quarter. Our players didn't execute the game plan. Given the nature in the way we let them back into the game I'd say this is just another example of a long list of times where we have fallen asleep during games over the last 3-5 years and let teams either kick away to an insurmountable margin or get back into a game that we should've had in the bag.

If this kind of stuff only happened this year I would say yes probably has to do with coaching but I'm sorry I just can't do that. This is a theme of our club now. Wilt and crack under pressure. Not show up when there's any expectation of us.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Put me in George’s camp. Clarko says it himself. Coaches teach game plans and systems. They can only do so much. The media loves to bang on about specific tactics that can change during the season but the basis of a team is their system. Ratten’s system got us to be 6 goals up at quarter time. The players deviated from that. Doesn’t mean he’s perfect or that coaches can’t impact on game day, but the blame lies with the players.

I just don’t believe it’s so black and white. I bet you Ratts and co are busy looking at where they also could have improved on the day.

 

[Diehard Saint]

So if it's the coaches fault for not teaching the players how to stop momentum and slow down the play, what blame do you lay on the players?

Just the lack of game sense to not understand the opposition is fighting back and to not address this out on the field is staggering to me especially when the coach has directed them already to slow the pace of the game down a bit.

Given the lead we had and the time left in the game I can't see how it's anyone but the players fault. Clearly Ratten advised the players of what needed to be done in the final quarter. Our players didn't execute the game plan. Given the nature in the way we let them back into the game I'd say this is just another example of a long list of times where we have fallen asleep during games over the last 3-5 years and let teams either kick away to an insurmountable margin or get back into a game that we should've had in the bag.

If this kind of stuff only happened this year I would say yes probably has to do with coaching but I'm sorry I just can't do that. This is a theme of our club now. Wilt and crack under pressure. Not show up when there's any expectation of us.

I’ve said it before - BOTH players and coaching staff are responsible, whether it’s a win or a loss. I’d bet there are very few times when coaches would sit back and say, well we got it 100% right today, pity the players stuffed up.

I’m done. We‘ll agree to disagree.

 

[George]

2 players. One of whom was having a very ordinary day and won a premiership years ago at a very young age. It doesn’t equate that just because they’ve won a premiership it makes them leaders on the field.

You keep saying Ratts has coached teams to premierships etc. if you cant see the difference in quality between the leaders they had at Hawthorn and what we have at the Saints then I can’t convince you.

I’m not down at Ratts at all, pretty bullish in fact, but he’s working with a different team here as he’s busy finding out.

How many premiership players are required to manage a 37 point lead with 45 minutes left? I would actually say none, the fact we have two actually would make managing a lead like that even easier.

He sure was having an ordinary day! He's had an ordinary couple of weeks actually. He looks like he couldn't be stuffed at all, roaming around the back flank getting cheap kicks, hasn't impacted not one of our games yet. For a guy touted as one of the best runners and most efficient kicks in the competition he sure isn't showing it.

My point on Ratten helping coach teams to premierships was to make the point that he knows how to manage football games. I am actually defending him, in that I believe he directed the players to play in a certain way after quarter time and they failed to execute his gameplan, and then the leaders we had out there failed to recognise what was happening and even they couldn't manage to arrest the momentum. This is not Ratten sitting on his hands because he doesn't know how to win, this is Ratten telling them how to win and the players not being able to do it. We don't need a 2015 Hawthorn side to hold onto a 37 point lead, a 2020 St.Kilda side should be enough. Should!

I’ve said it before - BOTH players and coaching staff are responsible, whether it’s a win or a loss. I’d bet there are very few times when coaches would sit back and say, well we got it 100% right today, pity the players stuffed up.

I’m done. We‘ll agree to disagree.

Ok. Maybe 2% on the coaches then.

 

[Ducky Tie]

I just don’t believe it’s so black and white. I bet you Ratts and co are busy looking at where they also could have improved on the day.

Of course. It’s not 100% blame vs 0%. Clearly there were things the coaches could’ve done better.

For mine, Billings shouldn’t have been the one to go to full forward in the last quarter and Carlisle going forward late was classic Richo rubbish. There’d be other tactical things no doubt.

In my opinion though, they are secondary issues. The crux of the issue is that we had a dominating first quarter and then completely went to water as a playing unit. The coaches are hardly going to change their message at qtr time after a dominant first qtr. The players have got to find a way to be more resilient.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Ok. Maybe 2% on the coaches then.

What an admission

 

[Diehard Saint]

Of course. It’s not 100% blame vs 0%. Clearly there were things the coaches could’ve done better.

For mine, Billings shouldn’t have been the one to go to full forward in the last quarter and Carlisle going forward late was classic Richo rubbish. There’d be other tactical things no doubt.

In my opinion though, they are secondary issues. The crux of the issue is that we had a dominating first quarter and then completely went to water as a playing unit. The coaches are hardly going to change their message at qtr time after a dominant first qtr. The players have got to find a way to be more resilient.

They had at least a half to change their message. Blind Freddy could see the momentum shift.
Agree completely with the resilience factor though.

 

[MOLTEN GANGLANDS]

the coach/players debate is dumb, they're intrinsically linked, if they're not doing as he instructed then he needs to coach better. Obviously you can have a great coach and s**t players and a s**t coach and great players, but we can't judge that from our vantage point. They both messed up. Hopefully they'll both learn from it

 

[George]

In my opinion though, they are secondary issues. The crux of the issue is that we had a dominating first quarter and then completely went to water as a playing unit. The coaches are hardly going to change their message at qtr time after a dominant first qtr. The players have got to find a way to be more resilient.

Agreed.

We can argue semantics and take everything the other says literally, of course there's going to be a percentage of the blame that is on the coaches.

We've already got rid of one coach for our inconsistencies. Our inconsistencies are still there. Maybe we are just a bunch of fragile downhill skiers. As much as it hurts to say.

I'm just getting sick of this crap that we produce. I've defended the players for too long. I moved on from the emotions of the loss quickly but I have had this nagging frustration since the game. Not about the game itself but just about our situation. Something I haven't really experienced since our GF days. I'm sick to death of watching us never step up to the plate.

 

[pebblesofsand]

If players don't do what the coaches want then the coaches are failing. That's what they are they're to do - teach systems that stand up under pressure.

If the players fail to follow coaches instructions and the coaches don't react - the coaches are failing.

If the same players continue not to follow the coaches instructions game after game and the coaches keep selecting them - the coaches are failing.

 

[Dard Ball Get]

If players don't do what the coaches want then the coaches are failing. That's what they are they're to do - teach systems that stand up under pressure.

If the players fail to follow coaches instructions and the coaches don't react - the coaches are failing.

If the same players continue not to follow the coaches instructions game after game and the coaches keep selecting them - the coaches are failing.

Agreed, but it takes time. The issues were there before Rattus P Rattus.

A therapist hasn’t failed if they haven’t fixed a patient in the first week.

If we’re still having this conversation in 12 months then we have an issue.