Autopsy Round 6, 2020: Fremantle v St.Kilda

[StCicatriz]

Yeah we aren't implementing what the coaches are instructing but I think much more of that blame is with the playing group given this hasn't just happened under Ratten it's happened under different coaching groups too. If it happened only under Ratten and the current coaching group I'd say fair enough the coaches need to take more accountability but when these issues were present last year then the players need to at some point put their hand up and say you know what we didn't deliver. We are professional footballers and in the position we were in, we should understand how to win the game.

i agree that Ratts hasn't been there long enough to really bed a lot of this down. it will take him a good 12 months.

but what i would say is i don't think this stuff has been implemented by Ratts. so it's all well and good for him to say in a presser "i told them to slow it down", but when have the players actually done that under him? i haven't seen it in a game. people have been asking for that for years now. even this year!

if they don't do it, they're not going to have confidence in it because they haven't successfully implemented it.

what they have done is play at this breakneck attack at all costs speed, which does work for them but not all the time. so it's no surprise they fell back into that mood, albeit with a shitload of panic, given it hadn't worked for 3 qtrs.

 

[George]

this is a great point RE: roughead.

especially when you listen to, was it lewis?

he mentioned at hawthorn if they were in that same position, after freo kicked 3 goals, they would have slowed the game down to take the momentum away. turn it into a real grind for them. then at the end they wouldn't have rushed. he said experience players understand 3 mins is a long time in footy. we on the other hand just started to panic.

he reckon roughead if there would address that immediately with them! having said that he was there during the norf game.

i think it's:
a) coaching, we don't implement a lot of this stuff on game day,
b) how good is roughead, he's exactly what we need, but it also says something about the other coaches, why can't they help there,
c) a lot of our players are still "young" but we do have a very senior midfield. it speaks volumes about the leadership from the senior types, especially in the midfield,
d) the confidence of our group. what lewis is talking about is confidence in your ability to win and knowing what you can implement will work. we obviously panic because we worry we will lose. instead of calmy implementing what we know will work. which gets back to point a. if they don't implement it regularly and see it work, of course they will panic.

This is where that argument falls down. Ratten was also at Hawthorn during Roughead's time. Ratten said post game that he instructed the group to slow the game down. Their failure to do that is more a reflection of the playing group than the coaches IMO.

i agree that Ratts hasn't been there long enough to really bed a lot of this down. it will take him a good 12 months.

but what i would say is i don't think this stuff has been implemented by Ratts. so it's all well and good for him to say in a presser "i told them to slow it down", but when have the players actually done that under him? i haven't seen it in a game. people have been asking for that for years now. even this year!

if they don't do it, they're not going to have confidence in it because they haven't successfully implemented it.

what they have done is play at this breakneck attack at all costs speed, which does work for them but not all the time. so it's no surprise they fell back into that mood, albeit with a shitload of panic, given it hadn't worked for 3 qtrs.

He wants them to play an attacking brand but I don't think he means chipping the ball around as an example of him telling them to slow it down. Basically we don't need to play on at all costs and we don't need to go down the corridor at every opportunity. Play the ball around the wings, go back after a mark, etc. We did this in parts against Carlton & Richmond when we were challenged. Both sides got a bit of a run on but it seems as though the players understand what he wants from them.

 

[StCicatriz]

This is where that argument falls down. Ratten was also at Hawthorn during Roughead's time. Ratten said post game that he instructed the group to slow the game down. Their failure to do that is more a reflection of the playing group than the coaches IMO.

i know Ratts was with Roughy, but both are no longer at hawthorn.

i remember watching hawthorn after their flag year in the pre-season here in those old triangular format games. this was during the time they fell into that hole and people questioned if they would come back and shake another premiership. my old man made the comment as to how good hawthorn were, despite them not winning it. due to how they were moving the ball and the things they were doing. i remember thinking, gee ya a bit generous here, they're cooked. but i did agree with the ball movement stuff.

years later they go onto a three peat with that short possession based game killing the zoned defence of the time.

so going back to us, i think if ratts had said to hawthorn when he was there "slow the game down", they would do exactly that and it would result in a win. because they had spent years implementing it, practicing it and seeing it work. i don't think it worked for us because our guys just never do it. they haven't under ratts. so to ask them to implement something they don't do, of course it's not going to happen or work.

players when under pressure go to what they know works for them. so no surprise they went into the breakneck speed approach.

now this hopefully changes and we start to see this happen in games. where we have moments of slowing it down and trying different things.

if i had seen this side under ratts this year (preseason + regular) have moments where they really slowed the game down and change their approach, then i would be 100% behind you. where as because i haven't seen it, i'm partially behind ya. i think a lot of what you say here about the players is 100% spot on. i think there's a bit extra to it which involves the coaching. it's not end of the world stuff, more tweaks we need to make.

the great thing is we are identifying this before the half way mark of season 1. as opposed to *in season 3-4 of richo. this is exactly the type of s**t richo should have been doing like ratts in year 1.


the challenge for the coaches and players now is to implement the lessons learnt. otherwise they go the way of trout & pelchen, identify the need for good users of the footy, then years later have someone at the club claim we drafted guys who couldn't kick. it won't be good enough to identify the source of the problem and then not implement the fix.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

Alright so you're saying the coaches should've adjusted and made changes at half time. How do you know they didn't? I know they did because Ratten said they did. So because the players seemingly didn't change anything (we didn't stop Fremantle's momentum) that is now a direct result of poor coaching or poor communication? Could it be that Ratten told them exactly what you suggested but being an inexperienced and mentally weak side they couldn't execute?

Now because they can't execute a gameplan that is ALSO on the coaches for not training it properly.

When our pressure goes from 1.98 (elite) to 1.48 (poor) within the space of half an hour is that a coaching issue or is that a playing group issue? Effort should be a given, we saw none after quarter time.

What responsibility lies with the playing group when a club lets a 37 point lead slip in 45 minutes?

its both ...
as a manager of people when your team dont make their targets it is as much on the leader as its on the team for why they failed ... poor leaders will shift the blame onto those below them as to the reason of failure .. strong leaders identify that they should have seen the weaknesses in those below them and not put them in key roles if they were not up to the task ...

fact is the players under performed ... fact is we came out after half time flat ... fact is in the last 6 mins we found some spark ...

if thats my team im leading im seeing that as for some reason the players were capable but didnt have the buy in to give the effort required .. when one of my major roles is to drive those standards and ensure the team are pumped up and ready to go then that failing is as much on me as it is the players ...
structual moves may have been put in place but they didnt work so that means that the structures were not right .. that lands on the coach .. if players were not up to the task then the coach should be all over that and not selecting them ...
leadership isnt an easy task because realistically everything leads back to you but thats the role Ratts went for , he knows this hes been there before ...

 

[plugger66]

Some people are funny. With our previous coach if the players didn’t implement what the coaches said it was the coaches fault but now it’s the players fault. Even if rats did implement changes at half time it was either the wrong changes, the coach couldn’t get his meessage through or it’s on the players. My guess is due to happening twice it’s a bit of all of them. Anyone blaming one group only would want to have pretty good information it was their fault but I haven’t see any good information. I’ve just see opinions that lame one group as plain silly. I reckon anyone blaming the coaches if players solely are completely off track. I have no doubt it’s a bit of both unless someone can tell me why I’m sticking to that and if someone posts something that is illogical I believe we have a right to ask questions.

 

[George]

Some people are funny. With our previous coach if the players didn’t implement what the coaches said it was the coaches fault but now it’s the players fault. Even if rats did implement changes at half time it was either the wrong changes, the coach couldn’t get his meessage through or it’s on the players. My guess is due to happening twice it’s a bit of all of them. Anyone blaming one group only would want to have pretty good information it was their fault but I haven’t see any good information. I’ve just see opinions that lame one group as plain silly. I reckon anyone blaming the coaches if players solely are completely off track. I have no doubt it’s a bit of both unless someone can tell me why I’m sticking to that and if someone posts something that is illogical I believe we have a right to ask questions.

You take things so literally lol

 

[StCicatriz]

Some people are funny. With our previous coach if the players didn’t implement what the coaches said it was the coaches fault but now it’s the players fault. Even if rats did implement changes at half time it was either the wrong changes, the coach couldn’t get his meessage through or it’s on the players. My guess is due to happening twice it’s a bit of all of them. Anyone blaming one group only would want to have pretty good information it was their fault but I haven’t see any good information. I’ve just see opinions that lame one group as plain silly. I reckon anyone blaming the coaches if players solely are completely off track. I have no doubt it’s a bit of both unless someone can tell me why I’m sticking to that and if someone posts something that is illogical I believe we have a right to ask questions.

your attempt to belittle people's opinion aside. i agree.

there's a number of faults here.

we need to look at the positive though, this is happening before the half way mark of year 1 of Ratt's and Rath's tenure. plenty of time to identify and fix issues that are there.

which given the stagnation of richo and the footy dept there for 5 years, which was self confessed to be poor, it will take time to fix.

i want to see them try things and implement the right strategies. i'd rather that over wins tbh. atleast show us it's being worked on and implemented on game day.

so it's important moving forward we see passages where we slow it down. we see passages of a real tough arm wrestle grind. it's important we see some inside contested domination. it's important we see some great zoning and intercept football. to go with our rebound attack at all speeds mentality.

 

[George]

i know Ratts was with Roughy, but both are no longer at hawthorn.

i remember watching hawthorn after their flag year in the pre-season here in those old triangular format games. this was during the time they fell into that hole and people questioned if they would come back and shake another premiership. my old man made the comment as to how good hawthorn were, despite them not winning it. due to how they were moving the ball and the things they were doing. i remember thinking, gee ya a bit generous here, they're cooked. but i did agree with the ball movement stuff.

years later they go onto a three peat with that short possession based game killing the zoned defence of the time.

so going back to us, i think if ratts had said to hawthorn when he was there "slow the game down", they would do exactly that and it would result in a win. because they had spent years implementing it, practicing it and seeing it work. i don't think it worked for us because our guys just never do it. they haven't under ratts. so to ask them to implement something they don't do, of course it's not going to happen or work.

players when under pressure go to what they know works for them. so no surprise they went into the breakneck speed approach.

now this hopefully changes and we start to see this happen in games. where we have moments of slowing it down and trying different things.

if i had seen this side under ratts this year (preseason + regular) have moments where they really slowed the game down and change their approach, then i would be 100% behind you. where as because i haven't seen it, i'm partially behind ya. i think a lot of what you say here about the players is 100% spot on. i think there's a bit extra to it which involves the coaching. it's not end of the world stuff, more tweaks we need to make.

the great thing is we are identifying this before the half way mark of season 1. as opposed to fu**in season 3-4 of richo. this is exactly the type of sh*t richo should have been doing like ratts in year 1.


the challenge for the coaches and players now is to implement the lessons learnt. otherwise they go the way of trout & pelchen, identify the need for good users of the footy, then years later have someone at the club claim we drafted guys who couldn't kick. it won't be good enough to identify the source of the problem and then not implement the fix.

Agree but am strong on my opinion of the players mental resilience. It is poor and needs to be improved. Haven't just done this in wins and losses. Look at our goal kicking in recent years. We crumble easily.

its both ...
as a manager of people when your team dont make their targets it is as much on the leader as its on the team for why they failed ... poor leaders will shift the blame onto those below them as to the reason of failure .. strong leaders identify that they should have seen the weaknesses in those below them and not put them in key roles if they were not up to the task ...

fact is the players under performed ... fact is we came out after half time flat ... fact is in the last 6 mins we found some spark ...

if thats my team im leading im seeing that as for some reason the players were capable but didnt have the buy in to give the effort required .. when one of my major roles is to drive those standards and ensure the team are pumped up and ready to go then that failing is as much on me as it is the players ...
structual moves may have been put in place but they didnt work so that means that the structures were not right .. that lands on the coach .. if players were not up to the task then the coach should be all over that and not selecting them ...
leadership isnt an easy task because realistically everything leads back to you but thats the role Ratts went for , he knows this hes been there before ...

Ah well, lets agree to disagree, tired of discussing it. I think the players ballsed it up and not the first time they've cracked under any kind of expectation either.

 

[StCicatriz]

‘Who do we want to be?’: Inside St Kilda’s brutal Round 6 review

Step inside St Kilda's honest review following Saturday's match against Fremantle.

www.saints.com.au

really good article. with some super interesting points.

especially with the comment on steele and JB.

i know it's all words and it means nothing until we see action. but it's a great insight.

 

[StCicatriz]

Agree but am strong on my opinion of the players mental resilience. It is poor and needs to be improved. Haven't just done this in wins and losses. Look at our goal kicking in recent years. We crumble easily.


Ah well, lets agree to disagree, tired of discussing it. I think the players ballsed it up and not the first time they've cracked under any kind of expectation either.

100% with you on the players. it's been a long history of it occuring too. how many times did they not even turn up at the first bounce under richo.

 

[StCicatriz]

We had too many guys trying to play ‘match-winner’, too many passengers thinking ‘oh yeah, Steeley or JB will get us through’, and not enough of us thinking about playing as a team.

that speaks volumes to who the club and players perceive to be our most important mids.

 

[StCicatriz]

“If you can’t grind mid-season, what do you think finals is?” Ratten says.


HOLY s**t YES!!!!

 

[Ducky Tie]

‘Who do we want to be?’: Inside St Kilda’s brutal Round 6 review

Step inside St Kilda's honest review following Saturday's match against Fremantle.

www.saints.com.au

really good article. with some super interesting points.

especially with the comment on steele and JB.

i know it's all words and it means nothing until we see action. but it's a great insight.

Very interesting insight. I'm sure there were things said by players in Saturday's 22 that didn't make the article but this line struck me as being reflective of the issues in the game: "Senior players Dylan Roberton and Dan Hannebery break the silence."

Why does it take two players who didn't even play to speak up. Who in this team has the guts to be a leader. It's a team totally devoid of leadership.

 

[StCicatriz]

i wish they took some tweets from long time fans and put them up on the slide to go with the media articles. really *in hammer it home.

WE ARE SICK OF THIS s**t!

 

[Stewart66]

This is where that argument falls down. Ratten was also at Hawthorn during Roughead's time. Ratten said post game that he instructed the group to slow the game down. Their failure to do that is more a reflection of the playing group than the coaches IMO.


He wants them to play an attacking brand but I don't think he means chipping the ball around as an example of him telling them to slow it down. Basically we don't need to play on at all costs and we don't need to go down the corridor at every opportunity. Play the ball around the wings, go back after a mark, etc. We did this in parts against Carlton & Richmond when we were challenged. Both sides got a bit of a run on but it seems as though the players understand what he wants from them.

Agree mate although we definitely got the wobbles up ...Billings clutch goal was significant against Carlton.

I know from someone in the room for a fact that when Teague put Cripps forward & Liam Jones to
play as seventh defender they were instructed not to bomb to the outnumber but to use the spare
all the way up the ground .

They were also told not to blaze away from 50 metres , another message our illustrious Capt ignored
with 2 teammates at the top of goal square in last quarter which resulted in an out bounds when he tried
to kick the cover off the ball in Carlton game.

But will get defended on this forum little doubt .

Comparing Ratts to Richardson is a joke we had no ability to score under Richo , continually played
wide bombing the ball up the line to an outnumber on the wings & forward line.
We refused to rotate our midfield , playing same quartet for huge minutes eventually getting overrun.

They even practiced over this summer , last 3 minute drills continually.
Having fictitious metal players placed in ground which players had to think their way through situations
late in games...all were ignored by certain players.

Hence why Ratten has raised the word “ composure “ or “lack of “in many Media presentations
this year.

 

[plugger66]

You take things so literally lol

Not really. You said it was all the players. About 5 people challenged and didn’t flinch once that it had anything to do with coached. Surely you aren’t flinching now. If you think it’s all on the players you should stick to it but some evidence would be nice. If you think that some have convinced you that it’s both then fine but just say so. Nothing wrong with changing your mind if others come up with a convincing argument

 

[plugger66]

your attempt to belittle people's opinion aside. i agree.

there's a number of faults here.

we need to look at the positive though, this is happening before the half way mark of year 1 of Ratt's and Rath's tenure. plenty of time to identify and fix issues that are there.

which given the stagnation of richo and the footy dept there for 5 years, which was self confessed to be poor, it will take time to fix.

i want to see them try things and implement the right strategies. i'd rather that over wins tbh. atleast show us it's being worked on and implemented on game day.

so it's important moving forward we see passages where we slow it down. we see passages of a real tough arm wrestle grind. it's important we see some inside contested domination. it's important we see some great zoning and intercept football. to go with our rebound attack at all speeds mentality.

No belittling. I stated facts. I think you belittling me by saying I’m trying be belittle others. It is fact that some blamed the coach whatever happened last year and whatever happens this year it won’t be the coaches fault. I’m not saying they are the same people by the way. They aren’t.

and I’d rather wins whatever happens. Implementing strategies is fine but I don’t want them to lose because of that especially as some people will find any excuse to have a go at the club. It’s certainly the wrong time in afl history to waste wins. It’s going to be a long road back for clubs like us.

 

[George]

Not really. You said it was all the players. About 5 people challenged and didn’t flinch once that it had anything to do with coached. Surely you aren’t flinching now. If you think it’s all on the players you should stick to it but some evidence would be nice. If you think that some have convinced you that it’s both then fine but just say so. Nothing wrong with changing your mind if others come up with a convincing argument

Just arguing for the sake of arguing. No convincing argument really, interesting you tell me to have some evidence to back up my opinion when your opinion doesn't have any.

It's like stepping on eggshells...

100% with you on the players. it's been a long history of it occuring too. how many times did they not even turn up at the first bounce under richo.

Every prime time game we've had the past half a decade. Every time the media pumps us up. Our performance against Essendon after beating Richmond in 2017.

Time and time again there's enough evidence to suggest it's definitely not the coaching.

 

[George]

Agree mate although we definitely got the wobbles up ...Billings clutch goal was significant against Carlton.

I know from someone in the room for a fact that when Teague put Cripps forward & Liam Jones to
play as seventh defender they were instructed not to bomb to the outnumber but to use the spare
all the way up the ground .

They were also told not to blaze away from 50 metres , another message our illustrious Capt ignored
with 2 teammates at the top of goal square in last quarter which resulted in an out bounds when he tried
to kick the cover off the ball in Carlton game.

But will get defended on this forum little doubt .

Comparing Ratts to Richardson is a joke we had no ability to score under Richo , continually played
wide bombing the ball up the line to an outnumber on the wings & forward line.
We refused to rotate our midfield , playing same quartet for huge minutes eventually getting overrun.

They even practiced over this summer , last 3 minute drills continually.
Having fictitious metal players placed in ground which players had to think their way through situations
late in games...all were ignored by certain players.

Hence why Ratten has raised the word “ composure “ or “lack of “in many Media presentations
this year.

It's all good mate, agree completely with you. They are professional footballers not auskickers. Grown men, not children. They need to take responsibility for what happened on the weekend and respond. All too familiar with this group of players is their continued lack of resilience when challenged. Effort has nothing to do with coaching.

 

[plugger66]

Just arguing for the sake of arguing. No convincing argument really, interesting you tell me to have some evidence to back up my opinion when your opinion doesn't have any.

It's like stepping on eggshells...


Every prime time game we've had the past half a decade. Every time the media pumps us up. Our performance against Essendon after beating Richmond in 2017.

Time and time again there's enough evidence to suggest it's definitely not the coaching.

No I’m not arguing for the sake of it. The old get out when you have nothing else. It’s not up to me to have evidence that it’s on both even though common sense says it is. You started this by saying it’s all on the players so you need to provide evidence on that. I guessing you will saying during the year it’s a great game plan or coaching move by the coaches. That suggests they do have important during the game. As I’ve said at least 5 times those who had better viewing than Foxtel said longmuir changed up things at quarter time and it seemed to them we didn’t react. That sounds like a coaching and playing issue. It’s also well done to longmuir because he obviously remembered how we also didn’t react in round one when Shaw changed things up.

 

[plugger66]

It's all good mate, agree completely with you. They are professional footballers not auskickers. Grown men, not children. They need to take responsibility for what happened on the weekend and respond. All too familiar with this group of players is their continued lack of resilience when challenged. Effort has nothing to do with coaching.

This group of players. How many played in the 2017 game you mentioned?

 

[lewdogs]

Very interesting insight. I'm sure there were things said by players in Saturday's 22 that didn't make the article but this line struck me as being reflective of the issues in the game: "Senior players Dylan Roberton and Dan Hannebery break the silence."

Why does it take two players who didn't even play to speak up. Who in this team has the guts to be a leader. It's a team totally devoid of leadership.

The captain is probably embarrassed because he went completely outside the team rules in the last few minutes, and the vice captain had a shocker. So they probably couldn't say much apart from "sorry guys we let you down today".

Wouldn't mind seeing Roberton back in the side. And obviously Hannebery is a leader at the club even if he isn't in the leadership group, jeez we need him back soon.

 

[Ducky Tie]

The captain is probably embarrassed because he went completely outside the team rules in the last few minutes, and the vice captain had a shocker. So they probably couldn't say much apart from "sorry guys we let you down today".

Wouldn't mind seeing Roberton back in the side. And obviously Hannebery is a leader at the club even if he isn't in the leadership group, jeez we need him back soon.

That’s true, but as I think Robbo is quoted in that article as saying, they have to speak up and be leaders no matter what. We need to have players who take ownership of the team. Regardless of their own performance, they need to be vocal and they need to set a direction for the team. We have very passive leaders it seems to me, whether or not they play well on a given day.

Definitely agree re Hanners. Sooner he is back in the team the better. Not sure about Robbo. I don’t really see a need for him at the moment. We have a nice mix down back and Wilkie is just so reliable in the same role.

 

[StCicatriz]

Just arguing for the sake of arguing. No convincing argument really, interesting you tell me to have some evidence to back up my opinion when your opinion doesn't have any.

It's like stepping on eggshells...


Every prime time game we've had the past half a decade. Every time the media pumps us up. Our performance against Essendon after beating Richmond in 2017.

Time and time again there's enough evidence to suggest it's definitely not the coaching.

part of coaching is to build up adversity to things like you mentioned. if you don't believe its coachable, then you're questioning list management and the personality types we are bringing through the door.

 

[MOLTEN GANGLANDS]

This is where that argument falls down. Ratten was also at Hawthorn during Roughead's time. Ratten said post game that he instructed the group to slow the game down. Their failure to do that is more a reflection of the playing group than the coaches IMO.

ya'll needa stop. Obviously he needs to focus his coaching on this area as our players aren't getting it. It's a team effort. This is the dumbest back and forth I've read on bigfooty since plugger tried to defend richo circa 2019. Ratts will realise this deficiency now and focus on educating the players. If it's still an issue in 5 rounds then revisit it