Autopsy Round 6, 2021: Port Adelaide v St.Kilda

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StCicatriz

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 3, 2016
23,318
47,229
AFL Club
St Kilda
Pre season debacle?
completely restructured the footy program at the end of season 2015, after he and the clubs identified he needed to be more managerial. he gave up more control to guerra in the off-season, which pissed off a bunch of more qualified assistants. 2016 turned into a sh*t show and then he made this comment:

long story short his approach and game plan was dated. publicly conceded as much. tried something different. didn't work. reverted back to what he knew. was gone years later.
 

plugger66

Brownlow Medallist
Jan 10, 2011
27,574
45,920
AFL Club
St Kilda
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completely restructured the footy program at the end of season 2015, after he and the clubs identified he needed to be more managerial. he gave up more control to guerra in the off-season, which pissed off a bunch of more qualified assistants. 2016 turned into a sh*t show and then he made this comment:

long story short his approach and game plan was dated. publicly conceded as much. tried something different. didn't work. reverted back to what he knew. was gone years later.
So freo?who cares.
 

prophetic1

All Australian
Apr 18, 2013
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completely restructured the footy program at the end of season 2015, after he and the clubs identified he needed to be more managerial. he gave up more control to guerra in the off-season, which pissed off a bunch of more qualified assistants. 2016 turned into a sh*t show and then he made this comment:

long story short his approach and game plan was dated. publicly conceded as much. tried something different. didn't work. reverted back to what he knew. was gone years later.
So is that a case of "cant teach an old dog new tricks"..................Ratts???(But he is such an adorable old buggar)...I always wanted MITCHELL. FIIK
 

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El_Duderino

The Dude Abides
Jul 26, 2006
33,328
28,235
AFL Club
St Kilda
completely restructured the footy program at the end of season 2015, after he and the clubs identified he needed to be more managerial. he gave up more control to guerra in the off-season, which pissed off a bunch of more qualified assistants. 2016 turned into a sh*t show and then he made this comment:

long story short his approach and game plan was dated. publicly conceded as much. tried something different. didn't work. reverted back to what he knew. was gone years later.
Oh I thought you meant while he was with us. No wonder I didn’t know. Lost all interest in him as soon as he left. Except his press conferences. Always some solid gold in them.

“You’re quite brilliant Shane!”
 

True Blue Saint

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Oct 9, 2006
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I thought Hills tackling intent was a lot stronger, he brought down Lycett early on which was pretty impressive, he definitely cares about his performance.

Derm made some interesting comments throughout the game, it was almost as if he had read bigfooty. (Re Sebb Ross and Hill)
I remember Derm saying "Oh Saints fans want Hill to be the kind of player who backs in to packs. He's just not that sort of player etc"

I don't think any Saints fan has ever said that. We just want him to go when it's his turn to go. Put your head over the footy, lay a shepherd or tackle. The 1%ers
 

Premium

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 8, 2016
7,809
17,993
AFL Club
St Kilda
Newnes was played injured towards the end and coming off zero preseasons. He's limited but tried hard. Now we have limited but coasting. I actually agree with Joey, there is a balance to having players from outside the club. If there is too many the ownership isn't there.

We need to get moving on list management. We had to fill lots of holes in because of our terrible drafting from 2002 until 2017 and sacrificed draft picks to do it. What's Steven Wells doing?

We probably have to chase some money ball players, leaders and draft with all our high picks. We probably had to build a somewhat competitive list base to build off because of Trout's drafting. Usually when you rebuild you keep a dozen of your best talent and leadership types and push talented kids through. Our older generation came and went and now we have very little up top.

In 2 years our older guys 29 to 31 will be Carlisle, Ross, Webster, Hill, Wood, Crouch and Kent (assuming that Ryder and Geary are done). Membrey, Dunstan, Sinclair and Jones coming up under that and Billings a year behind them.

It's a pretty depressing scenario with not a lot of leadership in that lot.
I wouldn't be writing us just yet , the team has a lot of class and believe it or not most of them have good disposal but the way they are playing you wouldn't think so.

Steele is a genuine star and Marshall is very close to it when right.
Brad Crouch is a A Grade midfielder though he is not showing it atm , but once we can keep the same midfield together for a few games he should start to show it.
Having King and Howard as book ends are as good as anything you could wish for but we can't expect King to be a world beater at 20 yrs of age.
Coffield , Clark are slowly getting there and every game played the better they will become, Paton who is injured is also better than average.
Also we all know the ability of Butler , Hill , Higgins , Membery , Billings , Gresham , Jones and they are all more than useful.
I still feel losing both Marshall and Ryder at the start of the year derailed us , even one of them in the team at the start would of settled the team down but then again I 'm stilled baffled why they have not used Carlisle in his best position and still throw Battle around like a Mr fix it.
Anyway they need to win the next 2 games or the season cooked.
 

Yawkey way

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May 8, 2017
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Don't doubt that Battle has "potential" and a better skill set than Blake but I'm yet to be convinced he has the drive and discipline to achieve a level that actually matches his potential. Exactly the same thing applies to Long but to a greater extent.

Its irrelevant where people are named to play - its the outputs they achieve when asked to play a position. If Battle is as good as people on here suggest, he'd be getting 20+ possessions a game playing on the wing.

He's got a great tank, good hands, excellent kick but he's simply not an athletic type - and that creates problems if you are expecting someone of his size and skill set to hold down a key position at HB and at HF.
We’ve given both plenty of chances and the results have been pretty mixed.

Im not giving up on either just yet, despite long having an ordinary run I’d play him as a pressure forward this week. I think that’s his position or he simply won’t make it. He’s a good contested mark, a good long kick and reasonably accurate kicking for goal, he’s creative and will chase and lay tackles. I think the time down back may have helped him learn a few tricks and any stupid frees might not be felt as much up forward.

Butler and lonie haven’t been any better and might benefit from a blowout run in the midfield at sandy.
 

Plugger35

The umpires are always right!
Sep 27, 2008
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We’ve given both plenty of chances and the results have been pretty mixed.

Im not giving up on either just yet, despite long having an ordinary run I’d play him as a pressure forward this week. I think that’s his position or he simply won’t make it. He’s a good contested mark, a good long kick and reasonably accurate kicking for goal, he’s creative and will chase and lay tackles. I think the time down back may have helped him learn a few tricks and any stupid frees might not be felt as much up forward.

Butler and lonie haven’t been any better and might benefit from a blowout run in the midfield at sandy.
I floated the idea of playing Long back in a forward role a couple of weeks ago, could be worth a try as our forward line isn't working at the moment.

He could play a similar role to Geary last year by providing defensive pressure and shutting down a dangerous defensive playmaker like Impey whilst also being a goal scoring threat. Along with Butler and Lonie struggling to score goals they aren't providing much in the way of defensive pressure.
 

FQFjt

Club Legend
Sep 11, 2015
1,270
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St Kilda
I floated the idea of playing Long back in a forward role a couple of weeks ago, could be worth a try as our forward line isn't working at the moment.

He could play a similar role to Geary last year by providing defensive pressure and shutting down a dangerous defensive playmaker like Impey whilst also being a goal scoring threat. Along with Butler and Lonie struggling to score goals they aren't providing much in the way of defensive pressure.
I was against the idea originally, because he has already played that role in the past with very little success. But at the moment he is a complete liability in defence, and we are so short on depth I'm not totally averse to throwing the magnets around a bit. Obviously it would require one of Lonie, Higgins or Butler to leave the forward line.
 

Mowman

Premium Gold
May 19, 2013
13,106
38,363
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St Kilda
I was against the idea originally, because he has already played that role in the past with very little success. But at the moment he is a complete liability in defence, and we are so short on depth I'm not totally averse to throwing the magnets around a bit. Obviously it would require one of Lonie, Higgins or Butler to leave the forward line.
I liked Healy's idea of giving Butler a run on the ball or wing
 

gringo2011

Premium Gold
Nov 12, 2011
36,293
90,295
Melbourne
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St Kilda
You're right there. I think it was expected that King could continue to play a forward style like his junior days but better. Once at AFL level, the opposition KPDs are just as a tall, strong bodied and stronger marks, and so his main strength is nullified, that's why he needs to get more leading in his play. At this stage I would play Battle deep as FF for an entire game.

His brother plays as a lead up forward fine. Max played like a giant small forward with a lot of his goals in the juniors. That seemed his special quality.
 

FQFjt

Club Legend
Sep 11, 2015
1,270
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St Kilda
His brother plays as a lead up forward fine. Max played like a giant small forward with a lot of his goals in the juniors. That seemed his special quality.
My hypothesis is that because Ben is marginally less gifted, he had to work a little bit harder on the basics, and its serving him well. Not that I know anything about their junior careers...
 

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Sainter3and7

Premium Gold
Apr 29, 2013
1,525
3,345
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St Kilda
I think the season is over for us. I'm looking at the midyear draft and the end of year draft and wondering how many years will it take for us to stop being a cellar dweller.
 

bergholt

Norm Smith Medallist
Mar 14, 2007
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I floated the idea of playing Long back in a forward role a couple of weeks ago, could be worth a try as our forward line isn't working at the moment.

He could play a similar role to Geary last year by providing defensive pressure and shutting down a dangerous defensive playmaker like Impey whilst also being a goal scoring threat. Along with Butler and Lonie struggling to score goals they aren't providing much in the way of defensive pressure.
Probably worth a try but he's never tackled a huge amount, even when he was playing forward he only averaged 2 or 3 tackles a game. Personally I'd just drop him.
 

bergholt

Norm Smith Medallist
Mar 14, 2007
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I think the season is over for us. I'm looking at the midyear draft and the end of year draft and wondering how many years will it take for us to stop being a cellar dweller.
Not necessarily a long time. Even assuming this season is cactus (which seems likely to me), we still have a solid bunch:

19: (Allison, Byrnes, Connolly)
20: King
21: Bytel, Coffield (Clavarino)
22: Battle, Clark, Higgins, Paton
23: Gresham (Highmore, Joyce, Long)
24: Butler (Lonie, McKenzie)
25: Billings, Howard, Marshall, Steele, Wilkie
26: Membrey (Dunstan, Jones, Sinclair)

That's 15 to build around including some pretty good players and guys with very strong potential. And then in the older group we can get 3-5 years out of Crouch, Hill, Kent, Ross and Webster. Support in the shorter term from Carlisle, Hanners, Chip, Gears, Paddy.

If we lose the next two weeks then the season is done and I'd concentrate on development for all the younger ones there. Clark to the midfield, Higgins to the midfield, Bytel to the midfield, Battle to the forward line, isolate King.

Then hit the draft as hard as possible, consider letting Billings and Ross go for compo, maybe find another trade in there (though seems unlikely). Load up on 3 kids at mid-season, another 5 at the end of the year, another 6 across next year. Just pick best available every time without worrying about positions. Try to find overlooked gems in the 19, 20, 21 groups above (because we're light there).

If we're lucky we'll hit a couple of interesting kids, get a couple more from the "maybes" above, get natural development from the high-potential guys we currently have. That could leave us with a reasonable core of 18 or so, around which we have older guys and other kids.

That feels OK to me. So from that point of view I don't think it's necessarily the end of the world, even though it's super frustrating.

Nowhere near as bad as (say) 2014, where between 50 and 150 games we had: Gilbert, CJ, Gwilt, Gears, Armo, Steven, Roberton, Savage - and that was it! Completely different list profile now.
 

pebblesofsand

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 18, 2011
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Battles stats are very good and for his age and experience he's shown heaps. I don't get the hate coming for him. Playing him on a wing was moronic but any decent coach would be building him up in one role. Since moving back he's had 16, 19 and 14 possessions a KPB. He's tracking at Jake Lever level at the same age and he was better managed.
I don't hate him - its just that I don't have as much love as others.

Since Jake has been rucking, Battle has been playing hb/hf depending on who's playing ruck. Played a fair bit forward when we went with a shorter forward line.

People say don't move him around it stops his development but that's nonsense because most of the players are trained to be able to play multiple positions to give us flexibility in the game. Like I said - given his height and his lack of real "athletic" prowess I think he will struggle to effectively hold down a kp post.

Been watching the replay in dribs and drabs - can't help wondering why we didn't chase Aliir Aliir a bit more. He and Howard would be a great combo for the next 5 years. Money I guess.
 

BrutThough

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 2, 2010
11,662
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I don't hate him - its just that I don't have as much love as others.

Since Jake has been rucking, Battle has been playing hb/hf depending on who's playing ruck. Played a fair bit forward when we went with a shorter forward line.

People say don't move him around it stops his development but that's nonsense because most of the players are trained to be able to play multiple positions to give us flexibility in the game. Like I said - given his height and his lack of "athletic" prowess I think he will struggle to effectively hold down a kp post.

Been watching the replay in dribs and drabs - can't help wondering why we didn't chase Aliir Aliir a bit more. He and Howard would be a great combo for the next 5 years. Money I guess.
Him constantly being moved around week to week does impact his development. The best way to improve and maintain form is to get continuity into your game, and when his position is a weekly proposition, he is never going to get that continuity and consistency that he needs to be at his best. He will never develop that chemistry needed with either the forwards or the backs if he doesnt get the prolonged time playing with them to learn how to fit his game around them, and for them to do the same with him.

Training to be able to play a 2nd position if needed is a lot different than having to be ready to play forward, back or wing at any given time.
 

austinnn

Veteran GOP
Nov 7, 2012
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Was illuminating watching both coaches press conferences.

When asked about Port’s crazy high uncontested possession numbers, Ratts muttered a rhetorical question about him not being sure it’s a good look for our game or something along those lines to have those high numbers of uncontested possessions. It’s clearly not something philosophically he likes as a coach and it showed in the press conference and shows in the way we are playing under him.

Sadly, with the new man-on-the-mark rule and less rotations, uncontested possessions is something we (and all clubs) simply have to do better as it conserves energy and tires out the opposition. Problem is, to execute a possession game effectively requires skill, training, decision-making and composure to pull off: you need to train for this constantly, over a long time to get results. It also requires patience, composure and intelligence on positioning to execute on match day. Our guys, even if they try and hold possession either stuff up a kick, lose patience and bomb it long, or stop leading, again leading to the long bomb.

Hinkley was different, praising the composure of the team, acknowledging he knew we’d come out with pressure but confident that his players would have the composure and skill to kick it around, keep possession, render our pressure ineffective, and then cash in when we inevitably lose energy and our pressure drops.

It was “how to beat St Kilda 101”. If it wasn’t already clear that, competition-wide, there is a very clear blueprint on how to beat us, then listening to press conferences like this dispels that.

Matching the above with Ratts admitting the new rules have hurt us, you’d hope that the likes of Rath are feeling the heat from our President. We seem to be the only team playing the game the same way we were last year.

Something like this (adapting tactics to newly implemented AFL rules) is surely right bang in the middle of Rath’s job description. On any measure he has failed dismally so far (I still have faith trust it can be turned around.... but we need a complete re-think on how we play from here on in).
Great points.

I don't get why anyone would think it was ugly football? Because it's indirect? It's the footy version of the Tiki Taka style Barcelona succeeded with.

Unfortunately not enough of our players are skilled, smart or composed enough to play this way well.

The only thing ugly about the way Port played against us was how easy it was for them. Rath and Ratten should have been drilling the team for this all preseason.
 

gringo2011

Premium Gold
Nov 12, 2011
36,293
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Not necessarily a long time. Even assuming this season is cactus (which seems likely to me), we still have a solid bunch:

19: (Allison, Byrnes, Connolly)
20: King
21: Bytel, Coffield (Clavarino)
22: Battle, Clark, Higgins, Paton
23: Gresham (Highmore, Joyce, Long)
24: Butler (Lonie, McKenzie)
25: Billings, Howard, Marshall, Steele, Wilkie
26: Membrey (Dunstan, Jones, Sinclair)

That's 15 to build around including some pretty good players and guys with very strong potential. And then in the older group we can get 3-5 years out of Crouch, Hill, Kent, Ross and Webster. Support in the shorter term from Carlisle, Hanners, Chip, Gears, Paddy.

If we lose the next two weeks then the season is done and I'd concentrate on development for all the younger ones there. Clark to the midfield, Higgins to the midfield, Bytel to the midfield, Battle to the forward line, isolate King.

Then hit the draft as hard as possible, consider letting Billings and Ross go for compo, maybe find another trade in there (though seems unlikely). Load up on 3 kids at mid-season, another 5 at the end of the year, another 6 across next year. Just pick best available every time without worrying about positions. Try to find overlooked gems in the 19, 20, 21 groups above (because we're light there).

If we're lucky we'll hit a couple of interesting kids, get a couple more from the "maybes" above, get natural development from the high-potential guys we currently have. That could leave us with a reasonable core of 18 or so, around which we have older guys and other kids.

That feels OK to me. So from that point of view I don't think it's necessarily the end of the world, even though it's super frustrating.

Nowhere near as bad as (say) 2014, where between 50 and 150 games we had: Gilbert, CJ, Gwilt, Gears, Armo, Steven, Roberton, Savage - and that was it! Completely different list profile now.

I still have no idea what we were doing last draft. There were good players taken after our picks, Berry that went after Allison looks exactly like what we would have needed. Poulter, O'Driscoll, Eddie Ford, Isiah Winder etc all look more like needs. We took a speculative less developed version of Battle and an older Wilkie clone. Strange when you only have a couple of picks. The sooner we realise you have to invest in recruiters the better. It reminds me of the Lyon era where we just threw away all our picks with no interest in the future.
 

pebblesofsand

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 18, 2011
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Him constantly being moved around week to week does impact his development. The best way to improve and maintain form is to get continuity into your game, and when his position is a weekly proposition, he is never going to get that continuity and consistency that he needs to be at his best. He will never develop that chemistry needed with either the forwards or the backs if he doesnt get the prolonged time playing with them to learn how to fit his game around them, and for them to do the same with him.

Training to be able to play a 2nd position if needed is a lot different than having to be ready to play forward, back or wing at any given time.
OK - but it then raises the questions - who gets dropped so that player X is afforded the luxury of playing a fixed position?

If Battle played full time at CHB last week then how do you manage Marshall/Carlisle because they don't play 100% of the game? How do you allow for King to spend time off the ground? How do you have the flexibility to change the structures to go smaller/taller etc?
 

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