Autopsy Round 6, 2021: Port Adelaide v St.Kilda

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El_Duderino

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Hawthorn in 1997 is the most recent time, in the 80s and 90s sides would more frequently finish with 6 or 7 wins in second last, but since the 2000s it's never happened. More tanking, I guess.
In 2000 second last (I believe Collingwood) had seven wins and in 1998 Freo and Collingwood each had seven wins.
1997 was also famous for having just seven wins separate first and fifteenth while also having a team make finals with 10 wins and a draw although that was bettered two years previous with ten wins in 1995. As a matter of fact Melbourne could have finished 8th with just nine wins had they drawn Brisbane in the final round.
 

Joffaboy

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In 2000 second last (I believe Collingwood) had seven wins and in 1998 Freo and Collingwood each had seven wins.
1997 was also famous for having just seven wins separate first and fifteenth while also having a team make finals with 10 wins and a draw although that was bettered two years previous with ten wins in 1995. As a matter of fact Melbourne could have finished 8th with just nine wins had they drawn Brisbane in the final round.

 

pebblesofsand

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Sorry Pebbs this is real tripe.
Flexibility is built from a base of competence which players learn in their first few seasons by learning one position well and building from there. If you throw them around too much in their early days you deprive them of the basics that see them through their careers.
This is true in all sports and most facets of life.
Well he'd better learn because he's not tall enough or mobile enough to play as a permanent key defender or a key forward therefore that's the position he is playing and will be playing from now on. No doubt we could play him at CHB - might do him some good, problem is, it doesn't do the team any good.

Currently if we had another half decent mobile CHB neither he or Carlisle would be getting a look in. Best option ATM I can see is Frawley at FB and Doogs at CHB.

Battle would then be looking at the 3rd tall position along with Wilkie and Highmore.

We get Ryder back then its Marshall, King and Membrey as the tall forwards - so again its a struggle to find a permanent position.

That's why he is being trained as a swingman, is selected as a swingman and plays as a swingman.
 

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The Punter

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There isn't going to be a resolution to this in this space, but posters like ScrappyDo and myself believe Battle is mobile and tall enough to play CHB, rather than a position in the team being sort of created for him because we feel he should be best 22, as opposed to others who believe the only way he can play is to be a jack of all trades.

Battle is 23 and played two-thirds of easily an AFL standard season at CHB two years ago at age 21. When Ratten arrived, he stopped playing there regularly. It's OK to think a coach was doing a poor job overall but was good for certain players (see Dempster, S., and Watters, S.).
 

BrutThough

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There isn't going to be a resolution to this in this space, but posters like ScrappyDo and myself believe Battle is mobile and tall enough to play CHB, rather than a position in the team being sort of created for him because we feel he should be best 22, as opposed to others who believe the only way he can play is to be a jack of all trades.

Battle is 23 and played two-thirds of easily an AFL standard season at CHB two years ago at age 21. When Ratten arrived, he stopped playing there regularly. It's OK to think a coach was doing a poor job overall but was good for certain players (see Dempster, S., and Watters, S.).
It was actually Ratten who suggested we play Battle down back after all the backline injuries we suffered that pre season. Said he reminded him of Jack Gunston and could play at either end like Gunston has over this career.
 

FQFjt

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In my opinion, what Battle needs right now is to be played in a specific position and role for the entire season. He played his best ever footy when he spent the whole year as a defender. Is that evidence that he is obviously a defender, or is it evidence that stability in the one role produced his best form? I prefer the latter.

Indeed, what we need at both ends of the field right now is a lot more stability. Forward lines and defensive units need to work as a cohesive team. This takes time to develop, and there is no hope of implementing a system at either end so long as we keep throwing Battle around and going hot and cold on other players who affect those structures (Highmore, Joyce, Wood, Carlisle etc.). Hopefully with the selection of Ryder and Marshall next week, we can finally get some stability in defence and attack from now on.
 

Saints43

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I remember Derm saying "Oh Saints fans want Hill to be the kind of player who backs in to packs. He's just not that sort of player etc"

I don't think any Saints fan has ever said that. We just want him to go when it's his turn to go. Put your head over the footy, lay a shepherd or tackle. The 1%ers
He told us all the things Hill wasn't recruited to do. Which we're pretty aware of. But neglected to mention that he wasn't doing the things was recruited to do either.
 

The Punter

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The Dermott commentary on Brad Hill was rather sad IMO. Hill's a triple premiership player at Hawthorn, which earns you a special place in Derm's estimation. Rather than offer criticism, Brereton described Hill's inability to play at the required level during the match in the same way a person would break the news of a cancer diagnosis of a loved one.
 

Joffaboy

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Great song. Not a big fan of Kenny Rogers but this song is excellent.

not sure what it has to do with my post but don’t particularly care. Lol
The thread is an autopsy thread aka the condition of the team.
I've been in the thread and have dropped back in to check.
Tenuous correlation? Works for me.

Might change my nic to Jackie Treehorn.
 

El_Duderino

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The thread is an autopsy thread aka the condition of the team.
I've been in the thread and have dropped back in to check.
Tenuous correlation? Works for me.

Might change my nic to Jackie Treehorn.
Ok I kind of thought that’s what you meant. I’m glad you haven’t left.

oh and if you change your name - I don’t owe you sh*t. My wife - does this place look like I’m ******* married man?
 

ScrappyDo

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Well he'd better learn because he's not tall enough or mobile enough to play as a permanent key defender or a key forward therefore that's the position he is playing and will be playing from now on. No doubt we could play him at CHB - might do him some good, problem is, it doesn't do the team any good.

Currently if we had another half decent mobile CHB neither he or Carlisle would be getting a look in. Best option ATM I can see is Frawley at FB and Doogs at CHB.

Battle would then be looking at the 3rd tall position along with Wilkie and Highmore.

We get Ryder back then its Marshall, King and Membrey as the tall forwards - so again its a struggle to find a permanent position.

That's why he is being trained as a swingman, is selected as a swingman and plays as a swingman.
Have you been drinking this morning?

How about we drop one of the under performing small forwards and put him in a position that suits him?

How about we prioritize our young talent ahead of those who are well over the hill??
 

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gringo2011

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Port had been working with him behind the scenes for a few years. Good job by them finding someone who could fill a hole they created for themselves and realising Sydney has salary cap issues that needed fixed.

Every club pulls off great trades like that. We've had multiple of our own in recent years.

We more look like one out of the box. They have managed the build really well and continue to do well. I thought they were crazy losing Polec and Pittard who were both very good at Port, they used the picks to get absolute stars in in their place and they didn't even take years to come on. It was ballsy and it came off. They basically did what we did when we got Billings, Dunstan and Acres but all three ended up being guns. Drafting is top shelf there and generally list management looks just as good.
 

gringo2011

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I trust Squiggle more, has us 17th with 8 wins but terrible percentage:
View attachment 1113340
Basically only a game and percentage from 10th though so a lot of possibilities there, if we just get a wriggle on.

That said, maybe we'd rather finish 17th with 8 wins than 10th with 10 wins - much better draft pick.

When emotion gets the better of me I agree but I think we rebound a bit at some point. I wouldn't be surprised if we have a mini resurrection of sorts at some point. Not enough to play finals but I can't see us having just turned into turd over night. Same with the Pies, they'll get players back and will knock a few over. Adelaide, Sydney, Essendon types are the opposite, I think if a few injuries hit them they are most vulnerable to a drop off.
 

gringo2011

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Whilst I agree with not understanding the strategy for last draft, if taken in isolation each move can be justified.

.We already had Bytel and Byrnes to feed into the squad this year.

.We probably did need someone like Allison to develop, and I still think he'll be offered up with some picks for Bing at some stage. I was on the Poulter band wagon as you know.

.Highmore was a need despite our raft of HBFs. Gears and Jimmy can't be part of future planning, and we were/are probably lacking some size about our defenders. He also allows Coff to eventually transition out of defense and Longy to be dropped.
I think it will be Highmore for Coff, and Connolly for Long eventually.

.Winder and Ford were late picks for a reason. I think we here just got sucked in by the draft nuffies on the main board. I this case I think it's reasonable to pass on a pick 58 for the form 19yo in the mid season draft. I heard someone from North talking about Eddie ford recently and it sounds like some maturity issues are afoot along with a good highlights package without that much else. He would have been a feel good story, but now I'm not even slightly bothered we passed on him.

.As for the rookies, all the good ones were gone by our pick

Our strategy won't be played out till after the mid season draft, so no point trying to dissect it now.. It may turn out to be a masterstroke..

Highmore looks more like Wilkie than a HBF, more of a third marking tall.

Don't mind going to the midseason draft as a strategy but I assume we thought we'd have a late pick in it.

Good sides have a lot more midfielders than anything else on their list because a lot won't make it. I just hope like fu** we got them right, we can't wait for ever. The hole club seems lethargic and moves with no urgency IMO. They think we are happy to wait.
 

bergholt

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There isn't going to be a resolution to this in this space, but posters like ScrappyDo and myself believe Battle is mobile and tall enough to play CHB, rather than a position in the team being sort of created for him because we feel he should be best 22, as opposed to others who believe the only way he can play is to be a jack of all trades.

Battle is 23 and played two-thirds of easily an AFL standard season at CHB two years ago at age 21. When Ratten arrived, he stopped playing there regularly. It's OK to think a coach was doing a poor job overall but was good for certain players (see Dempster, S., and Watters, S.).
I think it's getting harder each year for him to play CHB because the forwards seem to be getting taller. Playing key forward this year:

211cm: Cox
205cm: English
204cm: Hipwood, McKay
202cm: B King
200cm: Daniher, Dixon, Thilthorpe
199cm: Franklin, Lynch
198cm: Hawkins, Hooker, Jackson, Larkey, Marshall, Taberner
197cm: Bruce
196cm: Kennedy
195cm: Naughton
194cm: Himmelberg, McDonald
193cm: Riewoldt, Walker
192cm: Allen, Mihocek

At 192cm he's fine on the bottom few in that list, starts to get a bit tricky on everyone above Naughton or Kennedy or Bruce. Certainly tricky for him to stand the top few there - and a lot of the really big guys have really hit their straps just in the two years since he was regularly playing CHB. (Ignoring Mason Cox because he's a gumby.) And that doesn't even take into account ruckmen resting forward.

That said, he's not a lot worse than our other options, we don't exactly have skyscraper key backs. Options:

200cm: Carlisle
199cm: Howard
196cm: Clavarino
194cm: Joyce
193cm: Frawley, Highmore
192cm: Battle
191cm: Wilkie

So yeah, personally I think he should probably play CHB, but he's going to get exposed at times, we have to be willing to wear that.
 

gringo2011

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If we'd play a style of footy that utilized our other forwards then Max would more often be one out on his defender and be able to do his thing properly. It's the monotony of our bombing to packs that's f****** everything else..

We have the dumbest forward structure in footy. It makes no sense to hamstring yourself by playing differently to every other side that is using the new rules effectively.
 

gringo2011

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Maybe I am being overly optimistic but I honestly believe that this will be next year.

Some harsh lessons this year, a group that is relatively new having to go through adversity of poor performance (through a tough draw) together.

It will either bring the guys together or drive them apart. I hope for the former and think we have the talent on the list to give it a shake when it clicks.

Yeah, I'm starting to look at it positively. The club got cocky and thought they'd got all their ducks in a row. The fu**sticks all needed a good hard kick in the arse and they have now got it. How they respond will make them better or worse. It's up to the whole club to start to have a proper look at things with a bit of a closer eye. Assistants, list management, structures and coaching have all been shown up. If we had won games and got back to a won final and out we probably would have all been circle jerking that we were on the right track. The spotlight has been shone on the cracks now, up to the club to fix them before they crumble.
 

my name was taken

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He told us all the things Hill wasn't recruited to do. Which we're pretty aware of. But neglected to mention that he wasn't doing the things was recruited to do either.
Like touch the football?
Or kick straight?

How many times can Derm say "oh he would normally hit that target" before he stops himself and realises he is saying several times over, every week. At some point there is a line in the sand, and for most of us supporters we have already passed it.

Not to go into detail on salary, that we could find someone at 400k to play an outside role if the expectation is they never get a contested ball and play bruise free. Hind is more exciting but we only played him when we needed to fill a forward pocket. Sinclair has been okay through the midfield and atleast cracks in. Both sure as sh*t would have touched the pill more than 10 times.
 

The Punter

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I think it's getting harder each year for him to play CHB because the forwards seem to be getting taller. Playing key forward this year:

211cm: Cox
205cm: English
204cm: Hipwood, McKay
202cm: B King
200cm: Daniher, Dixon, Thilthorpe
199cm: Franklin, Lynch
198cm: Hawkins, Hooker, Jackson, Larkey, Marshall, Taberner
197cm: Bruce
196cm: Kennedy
195cm: Naughton
194cm: Himmelberg, McDonald
193cm: Riewoldt, Walker
192cm: Allen, Mihocek

At 192cm he's fine on the bottom few in that list, starts to get a bit tricky on everyone above Naughton or Kennedy or Bruce. Certainly tricky for him to stand the top few there - and a lot of the really big guys have really hit their straps just in the two years since he was regularly playing CHB. (Ignoring Mason Cox because he's a gumby.) And that doesn't even take into account ruckmen resting forward.

That said, he's not a lot worse than our other options, we don't exactly have skyscraper key backs. Options:

200cm: Carlisle
199cm: Howard
196cm: Clavarino
194cm: Joyce
193cm: Frawley, Highmore
192cm: Battle
191cm: Wilkie

So yeah, personally I think he should probably play CHB, but he's going to get exposed at times, we have to be willing to wear that.
It's a reasonable point, but something similar has happened in NFL football with wide receivers and corner backs. The issue there, and probably here, is anyone with genuine height and pace gets trained to play forward so the slightly smaller types end up as defenders playing on them. So 192 cm Battle end up on 198cm Taberner, for example.

For the record, Battle played on 191cm Jack Darling against West Coast. Jack Riewoldt is 193cm. With Howard in the mix, Battle can get that slightly smaller match up as the really tall forwards tend to end up at full-forward more often.
 

pebblesofsand

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I think it's getting harder each year for him to play CHB because the forwards seem to be getting taller. Playing key forward this year:

211cm: Cox
205cm: English
204cm: Hipwood, McKay
202cm: B King
200cm: Daniher, Dixon, Thilthorpe
199cm: Franklin, Lynch
198cm: Hawkins, Hooker, Jackson, Larkey, Marshall, Taberner
197cm: Bruce
196cm: Kennedy
195cm: Naughton
194cm: Himmelberg, McDonald
193cm: Riewoldt, Walker
192cm: Allen, Mihocek

At 192cm he's fine on the bottom few in that list, starts to get a bit tricky on everyone above Naughton or Kennedy or Bruce. Certainly tricky for him to stand the top few there - and a lot of the really big guys have really hit their straps just in the two years since he was regularly playing CHB. (Ignoring Mason Cox because he's a gumby.) And that doesn't even take into account ruckmen resting forward.

That said, he's not a lot worse than our other options, we don't exactly have skyscraper key backs. Options:

200cm: Carlisle
199cm: Howard
196cm: Clavarino
194cm: Joyce
193cm: Frawley, Highmore
192cm: Battle
191cm: Wilkie

So yeah, personally I think he should probably play CHB, but he's going to get exposed at times, we have to be willing to wear that.
And there exactly is my point.

If Battle was exceptionally quick or had an enormous spring then yep we might get away with him at CHB - but he doesn't so as far as I can see there is very little value in trying to get him to fill a role that unfortunately does not suit him physically. Yep he can fill in there (and at chf) when required but he is not a solution.

Lets say Frawley comes back and does a Nathan Brown at Full Back, there is no way known that anyone but Doogs will be the 2nd tall defender.

And once Ryder comes back there's no way known that anybody other than Marshall and King will play as the two tall forwards.
 

bergholt

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It's a reasonable point, but something similar has happened in NFL football with wide receivers and corner backs. The issue there, and probably here, is anyone with genuine height and pace gets trained to play forward so the slightly smaller types end up as defenders playing on them. So 192 cm Battle end up on 198cm Taberner, for example.

For the record, Battle played on 191cm Jack Darling against West Coast. Jack Riewoldt is 193cm. With Howard in the mix, Battle can get that slightly smaller match up as the really tall forwards tend to end up at full-forward more often.
If we're developing players then I probably agree. If we're trying to win games though then surely we'd play Carlisle along with Howard?
 

bergholt

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It must be making sense to somebody! That's the problem!
I think the logic is that if you can make it work then it's a plan that will hold up well in finals and high pressure games. If you're used to always kicking to a contest and winning the ball in dispute then the other team's workrate to zone and create contests doesn't affect you so much.

Sort of makes sense in theory, same as the early days of Hardwick's tenure, unfortunately though we can't actually make it work yet.
 

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