Round 6 v Hawthorn @ MCG (Our home game)

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xfiledavid

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I never say anything about umpires, and generally you get games that go for you and some against.. but tonight was one against, and im saying it.

players diving forward in tackles = in the back, that rule needs to be looked at. the in the back rule is sh*t, your running chasing a player tackle, forward momentum.. pay the free if its dangerous. otherwise play on..
Players ducking and diving their heads into other players.. thats just crap.. protect the head but not award a free if a player dives head first into a player.

Dissapointed in Sippos, i would give him another go though...

Riewoldt gets man handled more than most,
Buddy on the other hand can have a fist full of jumper.
 

aussierulesrules

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Montagna would be pretty close to going to Sandy. I've barely noticed him at all this year

If we're going to go with Blake in the ruck for the next three games we are in big trouble. Nic Nat, Cox, Kreuzer, Warnock, Mumford. They're some of the names we're going to be up against.

On the positive I thought most of our players were good for three quarters but Polo just looks out of his depth whenever he gets the ball.
Agree with these points.
 

lewdogs

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The thing that cost us tonight was crucial clearances, particularly centre clearances.

Mitchell and Sewell and a few other Hawks dominated the centre clearances.

Our forwards were killing the Hawks defenders but we didn't get it there enough. Really disappointing. Make no mistake, this game was there for the taking and despite positive signs (Milera, Saad who looked very dangerous can't believe people are talking his game down, Simpkin, Steven) we let ourselves down tonight.

We need to win games like this or basically we will slip to a no-hoper side again. I'm really shattered about this loss. I'm also a bit concerned about Watters' coaching, we were consistently flogged by Mitchell throughout the match and we still couldn't match up on him. This was also the kind of game that Armitage could stand up and show something, but instead he was pathetic. The fact that Simpkin never got moved onto either Cyril or Buddy is beyond me.

As for the umps, they've murdered us lately, but it's very hard to win when you're losing EVERY centre clearance. The whole midfield needs to take a good look at itself after this match and realise that they are a team within a team, we would have won tonight if we'd been able to get it forward with purpose.
 

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Sunshine Saint

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Based on the precious "ladder position" which states "when one finishes in the lower half of the ladder one must be playing hopscotch instead of football." When the stark reality is that games ebb and flow and all it takes is a drop off in rather minimal instances for results to change and the spectacles to become the complete opposite.

We are 3-3 having played sides with equal or far more established coaches, gameplans, personnel & desire to win. We are currently not in a timeframe where we can show anyone the door without paying out contracts, legal proceedings, or completely ballsed up list management, and no, we can't simply piss people off for rookies as "stupidity" or any other claim you'd like to make is not a viable cause to put anyone on LTI.

So either be constructive or kindly jump in front of that bus so the rest of us don't have to read your sh*t.

Anyway, yeah Geary was on Rioli to start, believe Polo spent some time on him in the midfield too before Geary was rotated off for Gilbert and lined up on whoever was their wingman / HFF on the left side.

For mine, it's not about us being unable to spread to cover the rebound, we just lack the pace/"pace" to do it effectively against similar or greater teams, as we will either be run off (pace) or they will simply use the space far smarter ("pace") to make it look easier than it was. Effectively it boils down to 2 types of players, the first being those who make the contest, those who physically can make it, exert the effort to do so and follow up accordingly, and the second being those who "see" the contest, those who position themselves so they do not have to put in the same effort to reach the contest, an eg would be Fisher as the latter, in that he reads the play and the trend of the attack so he positions himself where it is likely to end up at his juncture, as opposed to say a Jones who will run to get there, run to impact it, run to follow up and expend all that effort.

You saw this several times with the Hawks on offense as well, on the right HBF you'd see a hawks player drift towards boundary side for the "dinky pass", this is a "dumb" spacing used smartly since it then creates a further gap within the zone as you then need to cover wider areas, so the ball then goes inboard (unless overlap occurs) and suddenly you have more space as the entire ground opens up as soon as that comes off. We're still stuck with going down the line slowly which usually ends with the contest being killed or it opening up around true CHF (2 kicks out from goal).

I can see what Watters is trying to do as "Plan A" re movement, we just don't have the speed (runners from behind surging forward to create imbalance) or the skills atm to pull it off under sustained pressure. This is why someone like Sippa will be persisted with this year, because he has the "skills" to pull it off, he just needs to find a work ethic.

The voice of reason, even though he is driving a bus to take out those who can't see the bigger picture. Well said.
 

IllBeTheJudge

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Both defences effectively got destroyed in most of the key one-on-ones.

They just had a bit more class with the ball, I watch in frustration as our guys run and contest, and they just kick from stand still the most accurate passes.

Cyril was always going to have that game, you could tell the way the Hawks got around him that it was significant.

Ben is a big loss, but I feel we missed Fisher desperately in the last?

Just shows I don't notice him enough when he is there, sorry Fish.
Know what you mean, he would have been very handy settling the D when they were getting pumped.

Sometimes you see the stats and wonder what he did with all the possies he's racked up. Typically the answer is, delivered it to a team mate! Just not on his left ... :p
 

stkildathunda

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Scott Watters on the late changes:

“When we named our 25 we thought Ben McEvoy was going to play part in it. Other changes were how we wanted to line up on the night.”

“If you look under the AFL rules, 90 mins prior to the game you make your call. So that’s what we did.”
 

Tongue In Cheek

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The thing that cost us tonight was crucial clearances, particularly centre clearances.

Mitchell and Sewell and a few other Hawks dominated the centre clearances.

Our forwards were killing the Hawks defenders but we didn't get it there enough. Really disappointing. Make no mistake, this game was there for the taking and despite positive signs (Milera, Saad who looked very dangerous can't believe people are talking his game down, Simpkin, Steven) we let ourselves down tonight.

We need to win games like this or basically we will slip to a no-hoper side again. I'm really shattered about this loss. I'm also a bit concerned about Watters' coaching, we were consistently flogged by Mitchell throughout the match and we still couldn't match up on him. This was also the kind of game that Armitage could stand up and show something, but instead he was pathetic. The fact that Simpkin never got moved onto either Cyril or Buddy is beyond me.

As for the umps, they've murdered us lately, but it's very hard to win when you're losing EVERY centre clearance. The whole midfield needs to take a good look at itself after this match and realise that they are a team within a team, we would have won tonight if we'd been able to get it forward with purpose.
For the most part this is exactly what I'm thinking, the game was still there to be won at 3/4 time, then from that point the Hawks smashed clearance after clearance and emerged from pack after pack.

I'll give Watters a break, minding Mitchell was CJ's job and he's certainly done better jobs than last night's. Interesting that Watters gave Dal a direct spray in the post-match presser.

We can't have all of Armo, CJ, Dal and Joey having a bad night. This has all the hallmarks of a game lost "between the ears" and it doesn't matter who's playing or not playing and how talented they are until this is fixed. A slow start against Port and a bad day in front of goals against Freo are somewhat excusable but last night the Saints lived up to the public's expectations of being a team on the slide.

PS. Arsenal, ouch, damn that last goal from Norwich.
 

SAINTKILDA

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We had way too many passengers last night and most of them were experienced players. Milney looks like he's lost it and Dal looks to be back to his old ways of dogging it when the heat is on. He is our barrometer and can not keep disappearing when tagged. Montagna is really starting to piss me off and im convinced he is a down hill skier and wouldnt mind seeing him go. Umps were a disgrace too!!! Riewoldt needs to look in the mirror for this loss, 23 points down in the 3rd and we storm back into it with 2 quick goals and he had the chance to make it 4 points and all the momentum going into the huddle and he sparays it from 30-40 out directly in front - **** me!!! well done to Kosi, BJ, Jack, Simpkin, Lenny, Blakey and Gram eneryone else was clearly beaten on the night.
 

One 2 Roo

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I watched the replay again this morning, loved the effort from the boys. A big ask to go up against a quality side, missing your only ruckman and then losing your key defender before half time.

The simple fact is that we are a fair bit off the pace this year, the sooner some people come to grips with that the better.

Wholesale changes are probably not on the agenda at this point, the idea will be to get game time into the inexperienced and middle tier players whilst the likes of Lenny, Roo and Chipps are still around to learn from.

To those calling for changes - please provide solutions. My preference would be to stick with the kids and mid tier players, even though they will be up and down at times. You need only to look at Jack to see that persistence can be rewarded.

Milne needs to stay in the side, he is remember, the greatest at his position of the modern era. His in game knowledge is immeasurable, and whilst his stats are down, he can help bring Milera and Saad through.

Look I am not saying everything is perfect, because its not, but that is always the case when the losses mount. Dal was down last night, and seems unable to cope with a heavy tag, Joey was also down last night.

More concerning to me though is BJ. whilst i thought he was far from our worst last night, I think he could influence the game much much more than he currently does. A player of his ability should easily be in the top 5 in the comp, at the moment he is far from it. I know that he is great at the sweeping role and collecting possessions at will and the delivering the ball with absolute precision - which is great.

What I want to see from him, which will move him into the absolute elite, is more contested ball, more contested marks, more clearances, more inside 50's and more goals. Become more like Bartel, Kenendy and Pendles as opposed to playing like Davey. He does it a times, but I think he gets too carried away with trying to get the uncontested posi. Am i too harsh?
 

Falchoon

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More concerning to me though is BJ. whilst i thought he was far from our worst last night, I think he could influence the game much much more than he currently does. A player of his ability should easily be in the top 5 in the comp, at the moment he is far from it. I know that he is great at the sweeping role and collecting possessions at will and the delivering the ball with absolute precision - which is great.

What I want to see from him, which will move him into the absolute elite, is more contested ball, more contested marks, more clearances, more inside 50's and more goals. Become more like Bartel, Kenendy and Pendles as opposed to playing like Davey. He does it a times, but I think he gets too carried away with trying to get the uncontested posi. Am i too harsh?
Not at all, watching last night i was thinking he's getting a little too much outside and not enough inside, needs to start using that ample arse to effect.
 

goodie23

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Milne's best work has mostly been when he's had a partner like Guerra or Schneider. Last two weeks we've been exposed when the ball hits the deck in the forward line, might be time to give Saad a start and have them work the packs together.

That'll also help with my other major concern from last night, leg speed. Hawks killed us on the rebound because they were so much quicker. The game was played on their terms on a big ground, bringing Cripps and Ledger in could really help counter this. Even Farren could be a decent option (VFL form permitting).

Of course we're back at Docklands next week where speed is less important, but we really should go shorter and quicker for the trip West the week after.
 

StFly

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After last week I think BJ being outside was an attempt to get him to get leather poisoning and some confidence in his own game, because he's suitably been an angry man focusing on brawling with his tagger first and foremost, with Chips then going down before half time, BJ then became the loose behind the play and no doubt lacked that same "contest" as far as backmen go. For that particular game, I thought BJ played the fine game, since we got smashed around the ground (something like 50-60 less uncontested possies), so him chasing arse instead of chasing a kick would change nothing that he was better served in that hole trying to marshall the defense.
 

JustKickIt

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I watched the replay again this morning, loved the effort from the boys. A big ask to go up against a quality side, missing your only ruckman and then losing your key defender before half time.
I know how you feel, we are missing our only ruckman as well, and our best key defender was out injured. You probably got better value bringing Kosi in for your injured ruckman anyway as it turns out. He did very well.
 

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hayes

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Milne's best work has mostly been when he's had a partner like Guerra or Schneider. Last two weeks we've been exposed when the ball hits the deck in the forward line, might be time to give Saad a start and have them work the packs together.

That'll also help with my other major concern from last night, leg speed. Hawks killed us on the rebound because they were so much quicker. The game was played on their terms on a big ground, bringing Cripps and Ledger in could really help counter this. Even Farren could be a decent option (VFL form permitting).

Of course we're back at Docklands next week where speed is less important, but we really should go shorter and quicker for the trip West the week after.
The Hawks used short kicking to move the ball forward. I don't think speed was a problem at all, I just don't think we put enough pressure on them. The tall forward line may be why though.
 

Half Back Pocket

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The Hawks used short kicking to move the ball forward. I don't think speed was a problem at all, I just don't think we put enough pressure on them. The tall forward line may be why though.
I wasn't at the game, and couldn't see on tv...did we zone, or play man on man? Whichever, the Hawks prescient passing and commitment to run and spread was too much for us. Did some not want to chase? Are we not fit enough?
 

goodie23

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I know how you feel, we are missing our only ruckman as well, and our best key defender was out injured. You probably got better value bringing Kosi in for your injured ruckman anyway as it turns out. He did very well.
Not quite the same. You had Hale to carry the ruck. We had Jason Blake (valiant but conceding 10-15 cm). And at least you lost Gibson before the game and could bring in another player, losing Big Fish halfway through really hurt.

The Hawks used short kicking to move the ball forward. I don't think speed was a problem at all, I just don't think we put enough pressure on them. The tall forward line may be why though.
I was talking about on the rebound, but also in general play they spread, scattered and lead much better. We'd be banging it long to a 50/50 contest, they found and exploited gaps in our press. How many times were we lazy and not guard a man 20 metres closer to goal when we thought they were going to take a set shot?
 

touchwood27

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I thought you guys really but up a good fight.
I have adopted the Saints as my wife's family are all avid supporters, so I end up tagging along to most games.

I thought Blake was serviceable in the ruck and really worked hard. The loss of Fisher really hurt and made a massive difference.

Love the way Jack Steven goes about it and loved Kosi's game.

Also impressed with Simpkin down back as he looks slightly undersized but really manages to kill the ball well in the air.

Would Archer be an option to come in and give a chop out in the ruck?

Also thought you guys were absolutely crucified by shocking umpiring. Buddy kicked a goal late in the game after clearly having a massive chunk of Dempsters jumper in the marking contest.
 

Mat Mann

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More concerning to me though is BJ. whilst i thought he was far from our worst last night, I think he could influence the game much much more than he currently does
...
Am i too harsh?
I was going to say something last night then saw he had 26 posses, but i thought he lacked enthusiasm. Just doesn't seem to enjoy it. Happy to plod around but when he had the chance to chase, couldn't be stuffed.

Also another thing i noted, too many seem happy to do their role, it seemed ok that if they appeared to do the right thing thats ok, with out fully committing to doing it.

And Gram's disposals were shocking, for a player of his experience, it's pretty poor
 

Kozivan

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Polo needs to come out for ledger/cripps/ross/peake/ray. Last night he was slow, lost his temper (which cost us dearly) and made some really bloody awful decisions.

We need somebody that can find space as well as jones but then be able to user it... there were a number of times we got it to him in space and he just seemed to jog on the spot for 10 seconds until a player came near and he handballed it to the worms!

Lenny's decision making was down, Geary was sloppy, Roo and Kozi played awesome games (particularly roo's chasing and tackling) but in the last quarter something happened to our setup and they kept leading to the exact same place, spoiling each other and then a small hawk defender would crumb and rebound 50, happened a hell of a lot.

HAVING SAID THIS. We had a crack, we were good enough to win with a few good players being down on form. Injuries cost us. Also, hawks will be top 4 this year, there is little doubt. They had one bad (albeit VERY bad) half against sydney and people thought they were done? what a joke. On another night we could have won that and everyone would be talking about our top 4 hopes but we have a bad quarter against arguably the best side and now we aren't making the 8?

Basically, we need a little more positivity.

ALSO, i was sitting in general admin teir 3 with all the hawks supporters and was directly in front of the douche bag that wouldn't shut up about milne and jail the whole match, this eventually led to half the area telling him to shut the F up and he tried to pick a fight with everyone (even his own supporters) until the cops came and he shut up (late in the fourth Q) were any of oyu sitting near this??? what a douche.
 

mysainters

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I'd stick Dal in the forward 50 v Carlton.

I really would.

They are going to put a hard tag on him if he goes in the midfield. Can't be bothered with the whole 'let him learn to deal with it' business.

Meantime we lose another game.

I reckon he has a good goal sense, will be a bit of fun for him, maybe pop him back in for bursts and take them unawares.

Left field, but I like it anyway ;)
 

Half Back Pocket

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If i said....

1). Big Ben is out injured
2). Fish is off at 1/2 time with a hammy
3). Lenny, Dal and Joey all had below average nights.
4). Milne, Gilbert & Sippos were poor
5). 2 opposition forwards would kick 11 goals between them
6). Our 3 stoppers (Dempster, Jones & Geary) all got smashed by their opponents (Mitchell was very good).....

we'd be lucky to beat anyone, let alone a terrific team like the Hawks.

Be proud that our boys put up such a sterling effort!!! At 3 qtr time the game was still in the balance (even though they had sliced through us like butter through the middle).
 

Persevering Saint

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The only problem with that assessment, HBP, is that while 1&2 can't be helped, almost all the others were about our players' abilities and performances on the night. Essentially, we're saying that Lenny, Dal, Joey, Milne, Gilbert, Sippos, Dempster, Jones and Geary were off their game - can't afford to have 40% of your team, including 5 of your backbone, having a bad one.
 

Rors

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This was the first game of the year i've been down for & my one hope was that it would be a good hard contested game with the umps putting their whistles away & letting good footy shine through... that didnt really turn out as i'd hoped :(

Wow! I hate to say it, but Cyril was amazing... Unfortunately for us, that was the best game he's ever played.

Very disappointed again that NO ONE in our team bothers to run & bump or block Dal Santo's tagger!!! This is really pissing me off!!! Why arent our boys flying the flag a bit. FFS, get in there & make it known that we dont like the close attention you're giving Dal, so we will make your night a bit rough!!!!

Once again, we were crucified with the most pathetic, petty 50m penalties against us... I especially liked Polo's one for saying "What the ___ was i supposed to do?" when Cyril ran head-first into his chest to draw a free... :mad:

Also learnt that Armitage, like Nick Riewoldt, is still looking for his head somewhere on the broadcast side wing after getting it coat-hangered & torn off... There are 3 umpires out there, how do they NOT see this sh*t happen!!!
 

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