Autopsy Round 7, 2021: Hawks refuse to take the field

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Judd2Sewell

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 31, 2008
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Of course it does. Come on, man.

We had a 3 gamer running with their best mid to try and curtail him. Our best mid was a 22yr old, with a tick over 50 games.

We had 2 key forwards with less than 7 games between them, our most offensive weapon from the back half is 13 games into his career.
True, but that's half the story.

We had very experienced defenders like Hartigan and Frost playing on their key KPF's in King (24 games) and Marshall (33 games), absolutely dwarfing them in experience. Throw TOB in there too who has played more games than both combined, though granted most have been up forward.

Our midfield included an experienced Brownlow medalist and a extremely experienced three-time premiership player.

Another three-time premiership player was brought in, apparently a bit underdone though, to bolster that forward line that already boasted having Breust.

In the end both teams had inexperienced and young players, hence the similarities in age/games played.
 
Last edited:

Lickmesocks

Club Legend
Oct 2, 2019
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Did he say we are more inexperienced than St Kilda or that we are inexperienced? The latter is just correct, we fielded an inexperienced side and replaced 3 very experienced players with 3 inexperienced guys. The outcome wasn’t pretty
Clarko is deflecting at the moment. That effort yesterday was total garbage. He is not going to throw the side under the bus in a presser but yeesh Zac Jones, Ryder and Hill tore us a new one and we didn’t even give a yelp.
 

Mercy Seat

Premiership Player
Sep 23, 2008
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Don't like the fact Clarko is spinning sh*t in his presser about how inexperienced we were compared to the Saints

Saints average age off 22 was 25 years and 0 months, ours was 24 years and 11 months

Average games Saints 83.1 Hawks 86.9.

Talk about actual facts clarko rather than making up myths.
That’s one way to spin it. Another way is we had 9 players with less than 30 games. Saints had 4. Our older guys punch up that average. Our list profiles are quite different when you break it down.
 

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Brishawk

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Don't like the fact Clarko is spinning sh*t in his presser about how inexperienced we were compared to the Saints

Saints average age off 22 was 25 years and 0 months, ours was 24 years and 11 months

Average games Saints 83.1 Hawks 86.9.

Talk about actual facts clarko rather than making up myths.
You are posting dire nonsense. Please stop.

Averages only make sense if the data is normally distributed. Age profiles are not normally distributed so averages are incredibly misleading.

We had 4 extra players under 25 and 8 extra players between 25 and 27. So yes, the distribution of our age distribution tends to be younger for us but we also have an older group of 29+. Our sub 25s are largely trying to compete with experienced players in their prime.
1619923763763.png

We carried an additional 2 players 50 or less games while they had an additional 2 players in the 50-100 games and an additional 2 players in the 100-150 game range i.e. the sweet spot where age and experience combine for career best performance. The games played by our 200-250 game veterans can't simply be traded to our youth to even things out.
1619923951012.png


EDIT you might notice but the 26,27,28 aged player gap we have...that was likely intended to be filled by free agents. It shows the impact of not landing them.
 

CaptainWorpedo

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Feb 15, 2021
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Wow a lot of negative here, i am surprised by some Hawk fans shock that were shitty.

Kids got valuable experince individual and as a team. We did improve each quarter as we settled.

Finn got better as the game went on and worked his way into the contest. Needs a few more games with the senior team.

Jeka continued to lead despite being out numbered or overlooked by team mates.

Kosi was impressive, his work rate was good.

Worpel is finding some touch.

We need to continue down this track to depth and who stays for 2022.

Back youth in over fringe players
Jeka / Obrien
Maginess / Howe
Downie / Phillips
Barras / Hartigan

Greaves, Brockman, Bramble, Reeves and Pepper need a few games as well at some stage in 2022.

Would love for us to look for the next poppy and stratton in the mid season draft. Sick of recycled AFL players who have failed at other clubs.
 

CaptainWorpedo

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Feb 15, 2021
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Wow a lot of negative here, i am surprised by some Hawk fans shock that were shitty.

Kids got valuable experince individually and as a team. We did improve each quarter as we settled.

Finn got better as the game went on and worked his way into the contest. Needs a few more games with the senior team.

Jeka continued to lead despite being out numbered or overlooked by team mates.

Kosi was impressive, his work rate was good.

Worpel is finding some touch.

We need to continue down this track to find list depth and who stays for 2022.

Back youth in over fringe players
Jeka / Obrien
Maginess / Howe
Downie / Phillips
Barras / Hartigan

Greaves, Brockman, Bramble, Reeves and Pepper need a few games as well at some stage in 2021.

Would love for us to look for the next poppy and stratton in the mid season draft. Sick of recycled AFL players who have failed at other clubs.
 

Billyc

Premiership Player
Oct 17, 2009
4,578
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That’s one way to spin it. Another way is we had 9 players with less than 30 games. Saints had 4. Our older guys punch up that average. Our list profiles are quite different when you break it down.
I think one thing everyone could agree on is this: if you are playing 9 guys under 30 games, you are expecting a lot from your experienced guys or you’re going to get pumped. The output we are getting from experienced footballers like Mcevoy Shiels Breust Mitchell Hartigan Frost is unacceptably poor (I give Gunston a pass for yesterday as returning from injury).
 

satan1

Club Legend
Mar 24, 2011
1,322
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I think Worpel offers more than Mitchell winning the ball first, he is less predictable.
You are posting dire nonsense. Please stop.

Averages only make sense if the data is normally distributed. Age profiles are not normally distributed so averages are incredibly misleading.

We had 4 extra players under 25 and 8 extra players between 25 and 27. So yes, the distribution of our age distribution tends to be younger for us but we also have an older group of 29+. Our sub 25s are largely trying to compete with experienced players in their prime.
View attachment 1116806
We carried an additional 2 players 50 or less games while they had an additional 2 players in the 50-100 games and an additional 2 players in the 100-150 game range i.e. the sweet spot where age and experience combine for career best performance. The games played by our 200-250 game veterans can't simply be traded to our youth to even things out.
View attachment 1116809

EDIT you might notice but the 26,27,28 aged player gap we have...that was likely intended to be filled by free agents. It shows the impact of not landing them.
Great post.
A large portion of the opposition is right in the age profile to be in there prime.
The Hawks are primarily either side of the peak.
 

HODGEYROAD

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Wow a lot of negative here, i am surprised by some Hawk fans shock that were shitty.

Kids got valuable experince individually and as a team. We did improve each quarter as we settled.

Finn got better as the game went on and worked his way into the contest. Needs a few more games with the senior team.

Jeka continued to lead despite being out numbered or overlooked by team mates.

Kosi was impressive, his work rate was good.

Worpel is finding some touch.

We need to continue down this track to find list depth and who stays for 2022.

Back youth in over fringe players
Jeka / Obrien
Maginess / Howe
Downie / Phillips
Barras / Hartigan

Greaves, Brockman, Bramble, Reeves and Pepper need a few games as well at some stage in 2021.

Would love for us to look for the next poppy and stratton in the mid season draft. Sick of recycled AFL players who have failed at other clubs.
Question, did you make the effort to attend the game yesterday to watch the Saints run in waves unattended 5 mins into the first quarter like I did ?
 

CaptainWorpedo

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Feb 15, 2021
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True, but that's half the story.

We had very experienced defenders like Hartigan and Frost playing on their key KPF's in King (24 games) and Marshall (33 games), absolutely dwarfing them in experience. Throw TOB in there too who has played more games than both combined, though granted most have been up forward.

Our midfield included an experienced Brownlow medalist and a extremely experienced three-time premiership player.

Another three-time premiership player was brought in, apparently a bit underdone though, to bolster that forward line that already boasted having Breust.

In the end both teams had inexperienced and young players, hence the similarities in age/games played.
Hartigan is hardly a super star, his 29 years old with 120 games experince gained in 8/9 years.

As for our midfield individually they look sweet, but they are not playing as a team at the moment and this show in the results.
 

HODGEYROAD

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You are posting dire nonsense. Please stop.

Averages only make sense if the data is normally distributed. Age profiles are not normally distributed so averages are incredibly misleading.

We had 4 extra players under 25 and 8 extra players between 25 and 27. So yes, the distribution of our age distribution tends to be younger for us but we also have an older group of 29+. Our sub 25s are largely trying to compete with experienced players in their prime.
View attachment 1116806
We carried an additional 2 players 50 or less games while they had an additional 2 players in the 50-100 games and an additional 2 players in the 100-150 game range i.e. the sweet spot where age and experience combine for career best performance. The games played by our 200-250 game veterans can't simply be traded to our youth to even things out.
View attachment 1116809

EDIT you might notice but the 26,27,28 aged player gap we have...that was likely intended to be filled by free agents. It shows the impact of not landing them.
Yeah so it shows that our list is a complete mess, thanks for posting the graph BTW. Basically our list is a mixture of washed up senior players who are past thier best and lots of younger types that may or may not make it.

Praying that Jaeger and Chad return next week to add some much needed class.
 

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burner1

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Am sure you guys can spend another 10 pages arguing about how young we are.

This was not a team full of kids playing a premiership contender. We had more top end experience (including premiership players) and skewed younger but it’s hard to look at the differences and definitely say it was youth.

We got smashed by a better team and appeared to get shown up for speed and talent. Unfortunately this better team is likely not going to make finals which is the bigger concern. It’s fine for the tiges, port, dees etc to make us look silly but when another average team does that’s a real concern.
 

Rev08

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Feb 12, 2008
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No it's by playing 4 grand finals in a row and two top four finishes either side.

Only player Richmond have recruited since they won a flag of any note is Balta, it's like winning flags makes it really hard to draft elite talent or something.
Without doubt, we were always going to drop away after a period of success. We should be in a better state than we are now though.

Plunging time, money and games into Vickery, Patton, Scully and Hartigan has been a disaster. Our trade for Chad hasn’t worked out - sure, his best is incredible but I’m not sure we’ve seen it here and we certainly haven’t seen enough of it. Added to that, we stuck with some of our older heads for too long.

From 2016-2019 we took a total of 10 players in the National Draft, 1 of those being in the first round and 1 in the second round. Compare that to Port who have taken 18 players in that same period, 7 of which are first rounders and 4 second rounders. Sure, there are no guarantees at the draft but 11 first and second rounders versus 2?

We played a high risk, top up strategy and it has failed miserably. It has set us back years.
 

CaptainWorpedo

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Yeah so it shows that our list is a complete mess, thanks for posting the graph BTW. Basically our list is a mixture of washed up senior players who are past thier best and lots of younger types that may or may not make it.

Praying that Jaeger and Chad return next week to add some much needed class.
We have a nice draft hand for 2021, we are a work in progress. It is our fringe i have issues with as they have had long enough. Happy to give kids time to develop.

We need another clean out at seasons ends. OBrien, Howe, Cousins, Hartley, Brooksby and Nash.
 

satan1

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Mar 24, 2011
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Yeah so it shows that our list is a complete mess, thanks for posting the graph BTW. Basically our list is a mixture of washed up senior players who are past thier best and lots of younger types that may or may not make it.

Praying that Jaeger and Chad return next week to add some much needed class.
It's probably the list profile you would expect in 16/17. We definitely made a few mistakes there and didn't take the medicine.

Still could be ok in the next few years. Will have to wait and see.
 

HODGEYROAD

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Am sure you guys can spend another 10 pages arguing about how young we are.

This was not a team full of kids playing a premiership contender. We had more top end experience (including premiership players) and skewed younger but it’s hard to look at the differences and definitely say it was youth.

We got smashed by a better team and appeared to get shown up for speed and talent. Unfortunately this better team is likely not going to make finals which is the bigger concern. It’s fine for the tiges, port, dees etc to make us look silly but when another average team does that’s a real concern.
These are my sentiments exactly mate.
 

LMGjr

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Jul 25, 2020
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Get the eff over it - we're not good enough - our list needs work - get on with it like the club is. Looking back is so boring - anybody with eyes can see what happened and why - but some of you just want to keep going on and on and on about it like repeating the effing obvious makes you smarter than the people running the club - GET OVER IT - or go for a job at the club - geezis talk about sooking it up.
 

danielG

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That was one of the most insipid performances I have ever seen live I would have to go back to 2005. I could hang half the side on there performance but it all goes back to leadership they dropped there heads.
Half a dozen blokes are not up to the afl standards but we need change asap starting with the skipper down.
We have a nice draft hand for 2021, we are a work in progress. It is our fringe i have issues with as they have had long enough. Happy to give kids time to develop.

We need another clean out at seasons ends. OBrien, Howe, Cousins, Hartley, Brooksby and Nash.
a few posts back someone mentioned going past recruiting recycled players to patch holes.. I’m in complete agreeance.. I am over the club bringing the Hartiagns and the Heatleys of this world.. and Frost to a lesser degree. And Phillips.. It’s just one less this spot and senior team position that is open to try someone that might actually make a difference in years to come.. Maybe it helps marginally now but it’s a futile exercise. No disrespect to those guys but they’re just not the answer long term..
I’m also in the camp of trading an experienced midfielder to change the balance of our list.. Tom Mitchell would be the player Id be looking at what the club can get for him.. He’s a very good player but he should not be the player we build a midfield around.. I can’t think of a less impactful player per possession in the comp..we need to build around players that hurt the opposition with their touches, sorry Tom that’s not you.
 

Brishawk

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Yeah so it shows that our list is a complete mess, thanks for posting the graph BTW. Basically our list is a mixture of washed up senior players who are past thier best and lots of younger types that may or may not make it.

Praying that Jaeger and Chad return next week to add some much needed class.
But you accept that Clarko isn’t speaking bs when he says we were a younger side?
 

Nastyfish

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Sep 14, 2018
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I don’t think he can bag the playing group in his presser. Has to say something. The coughing fit was a good strategy!


Sorry I wasn't meaning to direct it at you really, think it just annoyed me hearing Clarkson call us a lot more inexperienced than St. Kilda in his presser when the truth indicates we had similar levels of experience.

I suppose he has to say something though to give hope to the fan base.
 

theiaofseed

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Jun 17, 2019
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Yeah so it shows that our list is a complete mess, thanks for posting the graph BTW. Basically our list is a mixture of washed up senior players who are past thier best and lots of younger types that may or may not make it.

Praying that Jaeger and Chad return next week to add some much needed class.
Like every new player? Who and what do you want in the team exactly?
 

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