Autopsy Round 7, 2021: Hawks refuse to take the field

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darthmann

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and the captain hindsight takes are very boring

who cares if we should've done xxx, or other team did xxx. we didn't, and we are where we are now. so we need to work on improving our list, gameplan execution etc. from 2021 onwards, because having 3 first-rounders in the 2018 draft is going to do fu** all to help us now
 

eldorado

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and the captain hindsight takes are very boring
100% THIS

Honestly, everyone...what's the ******* point?

Why did we trade this guy? Why did we draft O'Rourke? this guy went to some other team, and now i think he would be good at our team...oh woe, oh wail...oh gnashing of teeth.

It's not valid discussion of any kind...it's just infantile tantrum throwing. Tiresome in the extreme.
 

Dipper

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So you read his lips from the stands?
During the 90/91 Ashes Phil Tufnell was bowling, batsman was well short running back to bowlers end, ball thrown to Tufnell, he dropped it, batsman made his ground.

Tufnell distraught, England captain Graham Gooch walks over to him, looks at him and simply says 'You campaigner'.

I didn't need to read his lips from the telly or stands, every other England player in the vicinity corroborated it over the years.

On moto g(7) using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

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JR33

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Apr 7, 2021
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This purely a gut feel only but I can’t shake the feeling that Worpel will eventually request a trade to Geelong. They do rate him and I’ve heard they see him as a natural replacement for Selwood. Comes from a large family in 20 mins out of Geelong so the go home factor is real (potentially)
Fair enough to feel like that, however that won’t happen. Worpel has very close mates at the club and there is a reason why he’s part of the leadership group
 

Rev08

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100% THIS

Honestly, everyone...what's the ******* point?

Why did we trade this guy? Why did we draft O'Rourke? this guy went to some other team, and now i think he would be good at our team...oh woe, oh wail...oh gnashing of teeth.

It's not valid discussion of any kind...it's just infantile tantrum throwing. Tiresome in the extreme.
It’s not tantrum throwing if people are analysing where we went wrong (which some are). Just because someone speaks negatively about the HFC doesn’t mean they are throwing a tantrum - some just have the ability to see that not all the HFC does is perfect.

You ask what’s the point though? In that case, what’s the whole point of this site? Nothing we say or do here has any impact on the fortunes of the HFC, so why bother?

We come here to discuss the Hawthorn Footy Club, the good and the bad. Some though, seem to think you can only discuss the good. To suggest areas we have gone wrong makes us a bad supporter somehow.
 

eldorado

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It’s not tantrum throwing if people are analysing where we went wrong (which some are). Just because someone speaks negatively about the HFC doesn’t mean they are throwing a tantrum - some just have the ability to see that not all the HFC does is perfect.

You ask what’s the point though? In that case, what’s the whole point of this site? Nothing we say or do here has any impact on the fortunes of the HFC, so why bother?

We come here to discuss the Hawthorn Footy Club, the good and the bad. Some though, seem to think you can only discuss the good. To suggest areas we have gone wrong makes us a bad supporter somehow.
It's only when they imply people at the club have f’ed up that it's just tiresome...

I mean, how easy is it?
" Look how good player x is? We should have picked him, instead of player y, who we delisted. You know what I would have done if I was in charge of Hawthorn? I would have only picked players who all develop into top 10 players! I wouldn't have picked those other players! If I can see it now, why couldn't Hawthorn 4 years ago?"

I mean, honestly... what's the point of repeatedly pointing out the obvious...that with the benefit of hindsight, the club's decisions might have been different?

It's a discussion forum, yes...but is that constructive to anyone now? Is it even discussion? Is there anyone here debating that Merrett ahead of Hartung might have been good? That it would have been better if Tom Lynch came?

There's no disagreement there, so what's the point except venting? It's like meeting someone at a bar, and impressing them by telling them about all your failed relationships from the last 4 years.

I wouldn't mind if such comments were prefaced with "With the benefit of hindsight..." but people just post as if every choice which didn't pan out was clearly forseeable and avoidable.
 
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The hands of stone

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True, but that's half the story.

We had very experienced defenders like Hartigan and Frost playing on their key KPF's in King (24 games) and Marshall (33 games), absolutely dwarfing them in experience. Throw TOB in there too who has played more games than both combined, though granted most have been up forward.

Our midfield included an experienced Brownlow medalist and a extremely experienced three-time premiership player.

Another three-time premiership player was brought in, apparently a bit underdone though, to bolster that forward line that already boasted having Breust.

In the end both teams had inexperienced and young players, hence the similarities in age/games played.
King is a high end draft pick who has already performed at AFL level .
Marshall would be regarded as one of the better ruck/forwards going in the competition.
They are established AFL players and more talented than our ' experienced' backs

Im not discounting your point , they just have more talent than us irregardless of games/age.
 

xmarksthespot

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It’s not tantrum throwing if people are analysing where we went wrong (which some are). Just because someone speaks negatively about the HFC doesn’t mean they are throwing a tantrum - some just have the ability to see that not all the HFC does is perfect.

You ask what’s the point though? In that case, what’s the whole point of this site? Nothing we say or do here has any impact on the fortunes of the HFC, so why bother?

We come here to discuss the Hawthorn Footy Club, the good and the bad. Some though, seem to think you can only discuss the good. To suggest areas we have gone wrong makes us a bad supporter somehow.
I think it's important to remember that context matters when posting. Both in the short term (e.g. describing disappointment in someone's performance in a game without resorting to personal attacks) and the long term (describing where we are as a club in the context of coming off the mountain top of a three-peat). Too often I see people on this board attacking the individual, rather than the decision/action/performance. The constant personal attacks (of fellow posters, players or the club) grow really tiresome, really quickly.

Perhaps, if we as a collective aspire to post with empathy, we'll be able to navigate our way through both praise and criticism without resorting to personal attacks.

We can't be on top all of the time. Disappointment during the rough patches is unavoidable. Insulting our players, club or each other is not.

P.S. This is not directed at you personally Rev08, it was just the post that spurred me to respond!
 

CHUBBSS

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It's only when they imply people at the club have f’ed up that it's just tiresome...

I mean, how easy is it?
" Look how good player x is? We should have picked him, instead of player y, who we delisted. You know what I would have done if I was in charge of Hawthorn? I would have only picked players who all develop into top 10 players! I wouldn't have picked those other players! If I can see it now, why couldn't Hawthorn 4 years ago?"

I mean, honestly... what's the point of repeatedly pointing out the obvious...that with the benefit of hindsight, the club's decisions might have been different?

It's a discussion forum, yes...but is that constructive to anyone now? Is it even discussion? Is there anyone here debating that Merrett ahead of Hartung might have been good? That it would have been better if Tom Lynch came?

There's no disagreement there, so what's the point except venting? It's like meeting someone at a bar, and impressing them by telling them about all your failed relationships from the last 4 years.

I wouldn't mind if such comments were prefaced with "With the benefit of hindsight..." but people just post as if every choice which didn't pan out was clearly forseeable and avoidable.
Hindsight in this case is fairly relevant, it’s where all the discussion links back to, the failed strategy and now the adaption. Not sure why so dismissive when people are just talking.

the game just highlighted all the areas of issues with a high beam, I’m sure by Wednesday the conversation will shift to the positive because theirs still a fair few
 

OnTheRocks

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Everything is easy in hindsight
Yes it is. For some it's the issue of foresight that has been wrong. Climbing a tree after a few ambers is not the best way to climb a tree, sure you may get to the top but there is a high risk you won't and will fall down quickly.
It's not hindsight to suggest that recruiting the known likes of Vickery or Patton is not a good way to climb to the top.
Hopefully the HFC have the right people in the recruitment process to not allow those kinds of decisions to be made again.
 

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Rev08

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It's only when they imply people at the club have f’ed up that it's just tiresome...

I mean, how easy is it?
" Look how good player x is? We should have picked him, instead of player y, who we delisted. You know what I would have done if I was in charge of Hawthorn? I would have only picked players who all develop into top 10 players! I wouldn't have picked those other players! If I can see it now, why couldn't Hawthorn 4 years ago?"

I mean, honestly... what's the point of repeatedly pointing out the obvious...that with the benefit of hindsight, the club's decisions might have been different?

It's a discussion forum, yes...but is that constructive to anyone now? Is it even discussion? Is there anyone here debating that Merrett ahead of Hartung might have been good? That it would have been better if Tom Lynch came?

There's no disagreement there, so what's the point except venting? It's like meeting someone at a bar, and impressing them by telling them about all your failed relationships from the last 4 years.

I wouldn't mind if such comments were prefaced with "With the benefit of hindsight..." but people just post as if every choice which didn't pan out was clearly forseeable and avoidable.
I get it, vitriol directed at players is not ok. Not everyone who criticises the HFC gets personal towards players though. Can you not see there is a difference?

And if you want everyone to start with “in hindsight”, then you’ll need everyone to start any post in the autopsy thread with “in hindsight”. Half the stuff we talk about on here is with the benefit of hindsight - the good and the bad.

Would you prefer we only posted positive comments about the HFC?
 

Rev08

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Yes it is. For some it's the issue of foresight that has been wrong. Climbing a tree after a few ambers is not the best way to climb a tree, sure you may get to the top but there is a high risk you won't and will fall down quickly.
It's not hindsight to suggest that recruiting the known likes of Vickery or Patton is not a good way to climb to the top.
Hopefully the HFC have the right people in the recruitment process to not allow those kinds of decisions to be made again.
I never said everything is easy in hindsight. If you don’t want to use hindsight though in discussions then it goes both ways. We’d better stop bagging David King for tipping against from 13-15. We’d better stop praising recruiters for picking Will Day. We’d better stop bagging the AFL for the way the hubs were managed last year. The list goes on...
 

eldorado

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Would you prefer we only posted positive comments about the HFC?
No. Nowhere in my post did I imply that.



But when I see people wanting to talk about what we did wrong 4-5 years ago, I genuinely don't see the point. I really can't see what's to be gained by saying obvious things that are only obvious now. Where's the discussion and insight to be gained from that? Complaining might be good for the soul of the complainer, but what's the benefit for the reader? (assuming this really is a discussion board, and not a venting board)

It's completely unlike analysing a game we just lost, which can lead to a good discusiion of what we might do differently next week. Maybe I'm odd, but i just don't get "What we should have done five years ago!" posts, when everyone can see, with hindsight, what went well, what didn't, and what we should have done.
 

Opens positions

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Yes it is. For some it's the issue of foresight that has been wrong. Climbing a tree after a few ambers is not the best way to climb a tree, sure you may get to the top but there is a high risk you won't and will fall down quickly.
It's not hindsight to suggest that recruiting the known likes of Vickery or Patton is not a good way to climb to the top.
Hopefully the HFC have the right people in the recruitment process to not allow those kinds of decisions to be made again.

Hawks gave it a shot to get I more flag before seniors retired, it didn't work. New footy boss and LM bring a changing of the guard.
 

Rev08

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No. Nowhere in my post did I imply that.



But when I see people wanting to talk about what we did wrong 4-5 years ago, I genuinely don't see the point. I really can't see what's to be gained by saying obvious things that are only obvious now. Where's the discussion and insight to be gained from that? Complaining might be good for the soul of the complainer, but what's the benefit for the reader? (assuming this really is a discussion board, and not a venting board)

It's completely unlike analysing a game we just lost, which can lead to a good discusiion of what we might do differently next week. Maybe I'm odd, but i just don't get "What we should have done five years ago!" posts, when everyone can see, with hindsight, what went well, what didn't, and what we should have done.
Ok, so just don’t respond? There is plenty on here I just skip over because it is not a discussion I am interested in. If people want to have the conversation, great. If not, no one will respond and that discussion will die a pretty quick death. It’s not worth getting your knickers in a knot like some (we all know who is the worst).
 

Roger Rogerson

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Without doubt, we were always going to drop away after a period of success. We should be in a better state than we are now though.

Plunging time, money and games into Vickery, Patton, Scully and Hartigan has been a disaster. Our trade for Chad hasn’t worked out - sure, his best is incredible but I’m not sure we’ve seen it here and we certainly haven’t seen enough of it. Added to that, we stuck with some of our older heads for too long.

From 2016-2019 we took a total of 10 players in the National Draft, 1 of those being in the first round and 1 in the second round. Compare that to Port who have taken 18 players in that same period, 7 of which are first rounders and 4 second rounders. Sure, there are no guarantees at the draft but 11 first and second rounders versus 2?

We played a high risk, top up strategy and it has failed miserably. It has set us back years.
Wow that is madness 10 players in 4 drafts. Always going to hurt. Can't develop what you ain't got.

I guess the opportunity lies to take 2 players this midseason draft to arrest the imbalance.
 

Roger Rogerson

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But it isn't garbage. The raw stats literally prove it, there was a negligible difference.

Most of our inexperience was found in our forward line, especially the KPF's. But it was hardly their fault we lost the game. They never had a chance, and experienced three-peat players in Gunston and Breust struggled to have any sort of impact.

Hartigan, Hardwick, Frost, Impey and TOB are all experienced players.

Big Boy, Mitchell, Shiels, Phillips and Worpel (despite his age) are experienced players.

Our inexperienced sub-50 game (arbitrary number) players were:
CJ
Scrimshaw

Finn
Morrison
Cousins

Hanrahan
Moore
Kosi
Jeka
Lewis

Their inexperienced players included:
Coffield
Battle
Wilkie
Joyce

Byrnes
Bytel

King
Marshall

The main issue for us was quality around the ball. Obviously JOM and Wingard were missed, but even if they were playing we are still losing that match. And then the average age/experience goes up.
It's a great post.
 

Roger Rogerson

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No. Nowhere in my post did I imply that.



But when I see people wanting to talk about what we did wrong 4-5 years ago, I genuinely don't see the point. I really can't see what's to be gained by saying obvious things that are only obvious now. Where's the discussion and insight to be gained from that? Complaining might be good for the soul of the complainer, but what's the benefit for the reader? (assuming this really is a discussion board, and not a venting board)

It's completely unlike analysing a game we just lost, which can lead to a good discusiion of what we might do differently next week. Maybe I'm odd, but i just don't get "What we should have done five years ago!" posts, when everyone can see, with hindsight, what went well, what didn't, and what we should have done.
Because it is discussion which identifies the list building strategy that has not worked which we hope has been identified by the club as not to be repeated. that's why.
 

tommyk72

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It's only when they imply people at the club have f’ed up that it's just tiresome...

I mean, how easy is it?
" Look how good player x is? We should have picked him, instead of player y, who we delisted. You know what I would have done if I was in charge of Hawthorn? I would have only picked players who all develop into top 10 players! I wouldn't have picked those other players! If I can see it now, why couldn't Hawthorn 4 years ago?"

I mean, honestly... what's the point of repeatedly pointing out the obvious...that with the benefit of hindsight, the club's decisions might have been different?

It's a discussion forum, yes...but is that constructive to anyone now? Is it even discussion? Is there anyone here debating that Merrett ahead of Hartung might have been good? That it would have been better if Tom Lynch came?

There's no disagreement there, so what's the point except venting? It's like meeting someone at a bar, and impressing them by telling them about all your failed relationships from the last 4 years.

I wouldn't mind if such comments were prefaced with "With the benefit of hindsight..." but people just post as if every choice which didn't pan out was clearly forseeable and avoidable.
I wonder whether it’s an issue that emerges because not everyone might be able to (or care to) think with as much nuance as others.
 

Brishawk

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Because it is discussion which identifies the list building strategy that has not worked which we hope has been identified by the club as not to be repeated. that's why.
The club acknowledged this already last off season. Honestly, it’s time to move on from the past and accept current reality and talk about how we get back on top.
 

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