Autopsy Round 7, 2025: Positives and Negatives vs Hawthorn

[Time To Hunt]

Sorry to tell you this, but we actually aren't getting worse.

Clearances are improving, contested possessions are improving, inside 50's are improving. Round 1-4 the ball lived in our backline, we lost field position from clearance and then got pinned in D50.

We're moving the ball alot better, we're conceding less field position from clearances. We're still getting scored heavily by oppo moving the ball D50-F50, but there are clear and obvious improvements in the last few weeks,

Quote stats all you like to justify yourself, the only one that matters is the scoreboard and we aren’t improving there.

 

[UseR2006]

I really do think we need to find a way to get Ginbey into games more.

3rd year player, first round draft pick, we know all about his frame etc. Nothing particularly wrong with how his season has played out so far, he's been solid, I just don't think we're really optimising him.

I know everyone looks like a hero in pre season but Ginbey really looked like he might be on the verge of a serious breakout this year, in follow up to his strong finish to the season last year.

He's failed to get over 11 disposals the past 3 weeks. He had 8 touches last week. He's been under 15 touches in 5 of 7 games so far, with his others being a 16 and 17D effort.

Numbers wise he's putting up career low disposals, contested possessions, tackles etc etc... All the things you'd expect to drop off a bit potentially now he's not playing midfield. Only thing is... You'd think that would mean other areas would improve, only they haven't really. Rebound 50's and 1%'s are about the only bump.

My question is.. do we actually want this? Is it worth it? I feel with his fairly "subdued" 2025 he's not impacting games in defense lately, and I'm almost thinking the midfield shift SHOULD actually be back on the cards as the QB role he had in the offseason no longer exists.

The teams best passage of play vs Hawthorn was when Ginbey borderline looked like he'd ran himself into trouble, tucked it under the arm and legged it out of defense to link up by hand and create a very important scoring chain... Which Ryan cooked from memory? After a sloppy Duggan handball?

Either way it was about Ginbeys only real impact on the game IMO. That and a good HTB tackle on Hardwick and a couple other hits.

Can't we get it into his hands more or something, like we did during preseason? Bloke looked like a menace and would constantly get the give and gos out of defense to launch scoring attacks. It made is look unpredictable and a bit edgy and harder to defend against.

I think he's sacrificing his game a bit in order to play much deeper than we'd like him to because of our complete derth of KPDs. Without Gov it's basically Hough and Ginbey holding things up there. So opportunity to get on the move and impact further up the ground has been hard.

I think in part, this is why Allen back makes some sense while he's out of form. It might provide that cover to free Ginbey up more to play a bit higher and rebound more.

 

[BSD]

I really like Mcwalt and wont disrespect him by calling him mini.
The guy has great frame, isnt flustered and doesnt give too much where it isnt needed.

Possitives:
The boys had a crack and gave the game a shot. We werent left distraught and shamefull.

Hutchinson: This guy reminds me of libatore, and his turnover disposals doesn't determine his skill level. More so the fact he was the first to get the ball off the ground, and there was rarely options around him to give the ball to...

Maric: He is a hough 2.0, solid as a rock, has awesome 1v1 positioning, and beautiful disposals. Wish he chewed a bit more off.

Flynn: His work around the ground is very helpful given his such a big body. All we need now is him to lay a few tackles, which wouldnt expend too much energy if he just fell holding them.


Negatives:
Out coached and Sam has already discovered the best way to shut down the style of game. Next to zero ball movement other than down the line. Than when they had it they would make us work hard by switching to the other side of the field and playing keeps off.

Blatant allowing of the opposition to be the first to the ball, and leaves us on the back foot and exposed to give away frees which we did.

On the topic of frees, yeah we gave a few away, some hardly there, but what hurts most is when your team isnt being paid for what we are getting punished for. Blatant golden child and im feeling willy rioli about the Hawks

Flynns opponent winning 60 hit outs.

Lack of coaching moves by Mc walt and too late when he made them. I.E Dewar should have been subbed in the second quarter, or at least put him CHF so he can create goal scoring opportunities.

Usual crap inconsistent umpiring decisions. Harry McKay from Carlton gets run down and gets free kick for push in the back instead of holding the ball, Brady Hough tackled similarly on two occasions and as soon as he touched the ball got paid holding the ball, definitely no prior opportunity. I'd like to see The Razor explain that.

 

[omgfridge]

I really do think we need to find a way to get Ginbey into games more.

3rd year player, first round draft pick, we know all about his frame etc. Nothing particularly wrong with how his season has played out so far, he's been solid, I just don't think we're really optimising him.

I know everyone looks like a hero in pre season but Ginbey really looked like he might be on the verge of a serious breakout this year, in follow up to his strong finish to the season last year.

He's failed to get over 11 disposals the past 3 weeks. He had 8 touches last week. He's been under 15 touches in 5 of 7 games so far, with his others being a 16 and 17D effort.

Numbers wise he's putting up career low disposals, contested possessions, tackles etc etc... All the things you'd expect to drop off a bit potentially now he's not playing midfield. Only thing is... You'd think that would mean other areas would improve, only they haven't really. Rebound 50's and 1%'s are about the only bump.

My question is.. do we actually want this? Is it worth it? I feel with his fairly "subdued" 2025 he's not impacting games in defense lately, and I'm almost thinking the midfield shift SHOULD actually be back on the cards as the QB role he had in the offseason no longer exists.

The teams best passage of play vs Hawthorn was when Ginbey borderline looked like he'd ran himself into trouble, tucked it under the arm and legged it out of defense to link up by hand and create a very important scoring chain... Which Ryan cooked from memory? After a sloppy Duggan handball?

Either way it was about Ginbeys only real impact on the game IMO. That and a good HTB tackle on Hardwick and a couple other hits.

Can't we get it into his hands more or something, like we did during preseason? Bloke looked like a menace and would constantly get the give and gos out of defense to launch scoring attacks. It made is look unpredictable and a bit edgy and harder to defend against.

Been playing 3rd tall and looked okay earlier in the season but thought he was poor against Hawks. Sort of like when Nick Blakey plays 3rd tall and gets exposed, 190cm yes but not quite fit for that role.

I'm a massive Ginbey never again midfield advocate but I think he needs to be driving things off half back, that's where he looks best imo, sort of what you alluded too. One issue is Hough would be the 3rd tall but now hes shown something as an inside midfielder who can actually use the ball well.

To me this is the weekend to give Ginbey more freedom. Melbourne's forward line has been all over the place this season and they aren't brimming with talls. Gov/Oscar play KPD, have Maric be more accountable for a 3rd tall (still let him do his thing with the kick outs) and let Baker/Ginbey drive of HB.

 

[BSD]

Not surprizing. Skills are real bad.

We had 9 players with 10 or less possessions whereas Hawthorn only had 3.
It's time we got rid of "The Turnover Turkey" Tom Cole.

 

[Elite Pete]

I don't know whether you've realised, but there is no "development" to be had in our current set up. There really is nobody pressing underneath that is in a better position.

The one position you should be able still get decent development at WAFL level is an inside mid. Need to learn to read the tap work off your own ruck and opposition ruck, win a clearance or get it out no matter how thing are going.

It’s very different key forward or back where the ball is either not coming in there are much or too often.

 

[Smotie2]

In other news Liverpool are champions again.

You'll never walk alone!!!!

 

[Dom sheed pocket]

Quote stats all you like to justify yourself, the only one that matters is the scoreboard and we aren’t improving there.

After 7 rounds we’ve played 2,3,4,6,9,11,12 on the ladder.

If you can’t see the improvement then you’re not paying attention and if the score board is the only thing that matters to you then you’re going to be quite miserable following this team this year, next year and probably the year after that too.

 

[jdisc]

In other news Liverpool are champions again.

You'll never walk alone!!!!

congrats, cant wait to see how they go in the champions league

 

[daddy_4_eyes]

One massive negative is Harley's continued sniping. It's like he's trying to get himself suspended.

 

[Smotie2]

congrats, cant wait to see how they go in the champions league

We knocked out I'm pretty sure

 

[KERRPOW]

I really do think we need to find a way to get Ginbey into games more.

3rd year player, first round draft pick, we know all about his frame etc. Nothing particularly wrong with how his season has played out so far, he's been solid, I just don't think we're really optimising him.

I know everyone looks like a hero in pre season but Ginbey really looked like he might be on the verge of a serious breakout this year, in follow up to his strong finish to the season last year.

He's failed to get over 11 disposals the past 3 weeks. He had 8 touches last week. He's been under 15 touches in 5 of 7 games so far, with his others being a 16 and 17D effort.

Numbers wise he's putting up career low disposals, contested possessions, tackles etc etc... All the things you'd expect to drop off a bit potentially now he's not playing midfield. Only thing is... You'd think that would mean other areas would improve, only they haven't really. Rebound 50's and 1%'s are about the only bump.

My question is.. do we actually want this? Is it worth it? I feel with his fairly "subdued" 2025 he's not impacting games in defense lately, and I'm almost thinking the midfield shift SHOULD actually be back on the cards as the QB role he had in the offseason no longer exists.

The teams best passage of play vs Hawthorn was when Ginbey borderline looked like he'd ran himself into trouble, tucked it under the arm and legged it out of defense to link up by hand and create a very important scoring chain... Which Ryan cooked from memory? After a sloppy Duggan handball?

Either way it was about Ginbeys only real impact on the game IMO. That and a good HTB tackle on Hardwick and a couple other hits.

Can't we get it into his hands more or something, like we did during preseason? Bloke looked like a menace and would constantly get the give and gos out of defense to launch scoring attacks. It made is look unpredictable and a bit edgy and harder to defend against.

Im not an overly footy analytical person, i dont follow the stats/trends/game play. i'm just a low IQ footy fan.

what role is ginbey playing? is it 3rd tall down back, lock down defender? key back?

he has the body to play midfield, but it has been shown he didnt have the nous to play in the middle.

could he use his athleticism to be a wingman?

 

[KERRPOW]

One massive negative is Harley's continued sniping. It's like he's trying to get himself suspended.

yes and no.

Harley is being given the toby greene school of umpiring treatment.

they call his 50/50 frees whereas they put the whistle away when he's copped it.

theres only so much you can hold it in before giving it back.

 

[jdisc]

We knocked out I'm pretty sure

 

[jdisc]

Im not an overly footy analytical person, i dont follow the stats/trends/game play. i'm just a low IQ footy fan.

what role is ginbey playing? is it 3rd tall down back, lock down defender? key back?

he has the body to play midfield, but it has been shown he didnt have the nous to play in the middle.

could he use his athleticism to be a wingman?

Generic backman, can play 3rd tall but so can Maric, even has the height and frame to match up on certain 2nd talls, it's up to the coaches to decide how they want to match up against the respective forward line

I'm not a big fan of the narrative on here that every decent young talent needs to be shifted into the midfield. We need talent across the field, the backline is a very important line. Stopping your opponent from scoring effectively can win you games.

 

[Spongeycircles]

I really do think we need to find a way to get Ginbey into games more.

3rd year player, first round draft pick, we know all about his frame etc. Nothing particularly wrong with how his season has played out so far, he's been solid, I just don't think we're really optimising him.

I know everyone looks like a hero in pre season but Ginbey really looked like he might be on the verge of a serious breakout this year, in follow up to his strong finish to the season last year.

He's failed to get over 11 disposals the past 3 weeks. He had 8 touches last week. He's been under 15 touches in 5 of 7 games so far, with his others being a 16 and 17D effort.

Numbers wise he's putting up career low disposals, contested possessions, tackles etc etc... All the things you'd expect to drop off a bit potentially now he's not playing midfield. Only thing is... You'd think that would mean other areas would improve, only they haven't really. Rebound 50's and 1%'s are about the only bump.

My question is.. do we actually want this? Is it worth it? I feel with his fairly "subdued" 2025 he's not impacting games in defense lately, and I'm almost thinking the midfield shift SHOULD actually be back on the cards as the QB role he had in the offseason no longer exists.

The teams best passage of play vs Hawthorn was when Ginbey borderline looked like he'd ran himself into trouble, tucked it under the arm and legged it out of defense to link up by hand and create a very important scoring chain... Which Ryan cooked from memory? After a sloppy Duggan handball?

Either way it was about Ginbeys only real impact on the game IMO. That and a good HTB tackle on Hardwick and a couple other hits.

Can't we get it into his hands more or something, like we did during preseason? Bloke looked like a menace and would constantly get the give and gos out of defense to launch scoring attacks. It made is look unpredictable and a bit edgy and harder to defend against.

Great points.
I feel he couldn’t read the ball well enough in the middle and got caught out with the pace of elite mids getting their hands to it first. Defence is a great option for him to read the play, get used to the pace and use some of his skills.

It also look like, though, that he often gets caught having to play 3rd tall due to his strength and physicality, which denies him the chance to run and carry out of D50 to break the lines of the oppo set up.
What also doesn’t go in his favour is that we clearly aren’t running into positions to create enough options for him (or others like Maric) to use the ball out of defence. Ends up in kick down the line to a contest (our clear weakness as a side) and it gets pumped back in.

I think as we go in the season we’ll get better at those running patterns to use the rebound 50’s more to our advantage, but they suck right now. Also need a bigger key tall to be a lock down there to release Ginbey to run and carry more.

 

[Cornelius Roy]

I’ve actually been really impressed with mini in his post game pressers, despite having to front up immediately post game seems to have a very good grasp of what went well, what didn’t and what they need to work on.

I feel for him as his biggest problem is the same it’s been for the past four years. We just don’t have enough players who can halve a contested ball, let alone outcompete a player and break a line.

6-6-6 changed the game, you can’t expect to sit out in space while your team wins the ball for you and makes you look good all day, if you’re doing that your opponent runs rampant and then shuts you down on defence because he’s willing to work both ways.

Cole
Cripps
Hunt
Owies
Long
Dewar
Duggan
Maric

All these players are just receivers who need the ball to be won for them. If you put them one v one with a player in front of them with or without the ball I’d back the other player to outcompete them 9/10 times and either stop them or run past them.

I expect this was a big reason in prioritising Bo Allen despite him likely to compound our skill deficiency but what do you do in minis position right now? You can’t drop 8 players.

List still needs a real big turnover too many mid/undersizers who can’t get the defensive side right but then don’t have the athletic/skill capability to damage on the offensive side.

Tom Gross must play in this side, outworks a lot of these players and has the tenacity to win 1v1s which lifts his peers. Only excuse is load management, there’s no other possible reason not to have him in.

 

[Total_Juddshanks]

There are a fair few negatives and maybe a tiny number of positives.

Negatives

The margin isnt really the clearest indication of how bad we are, it could have been 80 if Hawthorn kicked more accurately or 30 if they hadn't got those late goals, fundamentally though they were in complete control of the game. The Barrass move summed it up, opposition view us as a sort of preseason intraclub level of opponent who they can **** around with, because they know even if we get a run on they can just melt us through 5 minutes of proper football.

If you want a clear indication of how shit we are its this- if we delisted Flynn, Owies, Graham, Hunt and Cole tomorrow not one of them would get a contract or even a rookie spot from any other team in the comp- so we are running around with 5 guys in our notional best 22 who would not get a game in the next worst team in the league. That is a historic level of shitness, not just by west coast standards but by all time AFL standards.

Flynn in particular I'm just ****ing done with. He and Bailey are not kids, they are mature bodied players in their physical prime, they try hard and they get destroyed every week by every other opposition ruck in the competition. You would think sheer random chance would suggest they'd occasionally have a game where they beat their opponent, but their record of failure is actually pretty astonishing from a statistical perspective. There is really not much point in dropping them for each other, just on the simple metric of 'how badly will you get beaten by their opponent' they may be two of the worst players ever to play regular games for an AFL team. Both need to be delisted with extreme prejudice.

Allen looks so done and so checked out. His only assignment at this point is to play well enough to get us band 1 compensation. Sad end to a guy who many saw as the future of the club a few years ago.

Although he won clearances and finished with a flourish I have to say this was one of the first games where I was genuinely starting to question if Harley should be in the team. Even for a second year, even allowing for all the extra attention and pressure etc, even allowing for the 'he likes to play close to the line' narrative, he needs to pull his ****ing head in and show he actually can play disciplined unselfish football if he puts his mind to it.

It's not just the free kicks (and honestly 6 free kicks against is ****ing dire, there's not much point in winning 7 clearances if you are gifting the other team 6 clean touches in the opposite direction) it's the insistence on trying to make every single possession he gets into a superb, game changing possession, even if in doing so he holds things up and runs into trouble doing so and even if what the team really needs is not a Harley highlight but just an immediate clean disposal to a teammate. Everyone thinks this is just a phase in his development but I'd like to see some indication he actually can pull his head in if told to do so. He's playing brainless football atm.

So after all that, positives?

Just one really. I think this is the second week in a row where you actually can see some hints of what McQualter is trying to do with the gameplan, and that the players are buying into it and trying to make it work. Even though we're still hopeless at clearances, the fast ball movement and hyper aggressive running game off turnovers meant we got a respectable number of inside 50s and gave the forwards some decent opportunities by getting the ball into them before the defence was set (admittedly still at the cost of some catastrophic turnovers in the other direction) You can see that a lot of the young guys, Ginbey, Maric, Hough, Hewett, Hutchinson are embracing that style of football and I liked that they kept playing that way even in the patches of the game where hawthorn were belting us - I loved in particular Ginbey's willingness to handball and run aggressively off the halfback line at all costs, and there were indications in the inside 50 numbers and our ability to string goals together, that they are starting to get some reward from this style.

It remains to be seen if the group we have has the ability to turn this into a winning formula, but at least they aren't just sitting on their hands- and you can see how, if it all clicks one week it would result in absolutely exhilarating game breaking football.

 

[Dom sheed pocket]

I really do think we need to find a way to get Ginbey into games more.

3rd year player, first round draft pick, we know all about his frame etc. Nothing particularly wrong with how his season has played out so far, he's been solid, I just don't think we're really optimising him.

I know everyone looks like a hero in pre season but Ginbey really looked like he might be on the verge of a serious breakout this year, in follow up to his strong finish to the season last year.

He's failed to get over 11 disposals the past 3 weeks. He had 8 touches last week. He's been under 15 touches in 5 of 7 games so far, with his others being a 16 and 17D effort.

Numbers wise he's putting up career low disposals, contested possessions, tackles etc etc... All the things you'd expect to drop off a bit potentially now he's not playing midfield. Only thing is... You'd think that would mean other areas would improve, only they haven't really. Rebound 50's and 1%'s are about the only bump.

My question is.. do we actually want this? Is it worth it? I feel with his fairly "subdued" 2025 he's not impacting games in defense lately, and I'm almost thinking the midfield shift SHOULD actually be back on the cards as the QB role he had in the offseason no longer exists.

The teams best passage of play vs Hawthorn was when Ginbey borderline looked like he'd ran himself into trouble, tucked it under the arm and legged it out of defense to link up by hand and create a very important scoring chain... Which Ryan cooked from memory? After a sloppy Duggan handball?

Either way it was about Ginbeys only real impact on the game IMO. That and a good HTB tackle on Hardwick and a couple other hits.

Can't we get it into his hands more or something, like we did during preseason? Bloke looked like a menace and would constantly get the give and gos out of defense to launch scoring attacks. It made is look unpredictable and a bit edgy and harder to defend against.

I feel like his role changed when Harley went in to the backline and we started messing around with our KPD. He went from playing as a rebounding half back to a pseudo KPD and his numbers probably reflect this a little bit. I thought he started running and gunning a bit more yesterday, something we hadn't seen for a couple of weeks.

I’ve actually been really impressed with mini in his post game pressers, despite having to front up immediately post game seems to have a very good grasp of what went well, what didn’t and what they need to work on.

I feel for him as his biggest problem is the same it’s been for the past four years. We just don’t have enough players who can halve a contested ball, let alone outcompete a player and break a line.

6-6-6 changed the game, you can’t expect to sit out in space while your team wins the ball for you and makes you look good all day, if you’re doing that your opponent runs rampant and then shuts you down on defence because he’s willing to work both ways.

Cole
Cripps
Hunt
Owies
Long
Dewar
Duggan
Maric

All these players are just receivers who need the ball to be won for them. If you put them one v one with a player in front of them with or without the ball I’d back the other player to outcompete them 9/10 times and either stop them or run past them.

I expect this was a big reason in prioritising Bo Allen despite him likely to compound our skill deficiency but what do you do in minis position right now? You can’t drop 8 players.

List still needs a real big turnover too many mid/undersizers who can’t get the defensive side right but then don’t have the athletic/skill capability to damage on the offensive side.

Tom Gross must play in this side, outworks a lot of these players and has the tenacity to win 1v1s which lifts his peers. Only excuse is load management, there’s no other possible reason not to have him in.

Agree with the general thrust of you post, I don't think it necessarily means we need to get Gross in the team and play him out of position. It's not a week to week fix, it's something we can only fix over a number of seasons.

 

[Deplorable trumpster]

I think the biggest negative for me is that even after the game was in the bag for Hawthorn they were still beating us for intensity, pressure and effort. You could both see it with your own eyes and you could see it in the pressure gauge stat that Channel 7 has. They were more desperate. Way more tackles despite them having the ball for more time than us, more men at the coal face at every contest than we had etc etc. I can accept my team losing. We had a decade of absolutely awful management and decisions at the club from people who are now gone and now we are paying the piper for that. But being beaten for effort is hard to take. And it is hard to figure out why? Are we less fit than the other teams and if so why? Is it a psychological thing where we have been copping hidings for so long and having the club make excuses for it that it is now just ingrained in the playing group that trying doesn't matter and it is OK to lose?

 

[Grahame]

Quote stats all you like to justify yourself, the only one that matters is the scoreboard and we aren’t improving there.

One stat to do with the scoreboard: we lost the second quarter by 28 pts and gave up three goals in the last seven minutes. And they won by 50.

So for the remaining ~2.75 Qs they outscored us by four points.

And this is a problem we have - stopping teams getting a run on - which is a characteristic of a side lacking experience and … synergy.

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

The Congratulations for competing is rather nauseating. What a pathetic standard to have

Positives

• Harley Reids 2nd half
• Hough okay start as a midfielder
• Duggan had his first good game in forever

Negatives

• Archer Reid up forward..... Guy is 100% a defender. EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING about this guy screams KPP. His strength is reading the play, his weakness is goalkicking. His other strength is decision making, his weakness is defensive pressure/tackling. Figure it out ffs
• Dewars form drop off. He isnt fit enough for a winger at this stage. Give him 2 weeks off and bring him back as a HF I feel.
• Ginbeys lack of run from defense. Maric only one who runs.... which is insane

First one is my biggest issue. We cant even get the basic positioning of players correct....

 

[Astro7]

One massive negative is Harley's continued sniping. It's like he's trying to get himself suspended.

Doubt he's trying to get himself suspended - counterproductive?
He's partial to a coat hanger or three... he's just a very competitive beast.
But you don't want to see it descend into continual dirty play, he'll pay the price from oppo and umps. (that target on the back will haunt him) Maturity and experience required, without suppressing his natural ability and competitive edge.

 

[Dom sheed pocket]

Doubt he's trying to get himself suspended - counterproductive?
He's partial to a coat hanger or three... he's just a very competitive beast.
But you don't want to see it descend into continual dirty play, he'll pay the price from oppo and umps. (that target on the back will haunt him) Maturity and experience required, without suppressing his natural ability and competitive edge.

It's something that put alot of unnecessary attention on him, something that was partly responsible for him being moved out of the midfield, that he got out of his game while playing down back, and is now back again.

I'm pretty sure at least 3 of his free kicks ended up directly in goals. It's fine to say "we lost by 10 goals anyway' but hopefully one day we won't, and those goals from silly free kicks could be the difference.

 

[PerthBoy86]

Anthony Hudson's biased commentary irritated me all day. It does every time we get stuck with him commentating any of our games. I would bet money that if you could run an AI program over his commentary for all the games he has commentated with us vrs a Victorian side that the number of times he suggests a free kick should have been pad to the Victorian side vrs when he suggests the same about us would be at least 3 to 1. Maybe even 10 to 1 plus. Ditto with the ratio of the number of times he disagrees with a free kick that was paid. I am sure he knows he is biased and thinks he is hiding it well but it is so obvious.

Interesting, he always seemed like one of the less biased ones. Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention. Is this a decent thing?