Autopsy Round 7 - St Kilda v Brisbane

[mad-saint-guy]

Not sure what to make of the Garcia fiasco. I get he needs to make a statement etc - but let's face facts, no one gives a damn if you drop a 15 game player.

I hope that he has stern words with Steele and a few other senior players as for people clapping at his performance, maybe take a look at what his opponent in Neale had for his output. 31 touches 3 goals and 12 score involvements. It's all well to look at stat's but look at the damage his opposite player done. Dunkley and Macrae pretty much cancelled each other stats wise, but one had 8 score involvements while the other had 2. Windy was sitting on McCluggage who had 21 and a goal but 6 clearances and 9 score involvements.

Between the 3 starting mids that we fielded it was the Lions with 4 goals and 29 score involvements to our guys 0 goals and 9 score involvements.

No point looking at anything else when your 3 in the middle get absolutely destroyed. 26 minutes of Garcia made no dent in what actually happened in the middle of the ground. Im Ross' biggest fan, but he needs to get his act together. Have not been happy with selections and dropping of some players and not others. Arie gets dropped after the crows and dogs games, yet I can name 10 players that played worse in each.

Arie averaging 18.5 disposals, 76% efficiency, 4 marks, 7 rebound 50s, 7 intercepts, 435m gained and 100% dropped rate

 

[The Punter]

He’s playing as a forward FFS what would you like him to do. Where a cape and fly to where the ball is.

Play effectively in his best role, which is forward and which he has generally done so far this season.

 

[Browny2Carlisle]

IMO he just doesn't get enough of the ball wherever he plays. He gets midfield minutes when rucking and occasionally at other times. The comparison is Aaron Hamill, and as a third forward I think is where we will get the most production out of him.

I don't think he's the burst from stoppage mid we need. We have all the others IMO to some extent.

He had 0 CBAs last week but in the 3rd quarter was rushing in from the forward 50 and getting more involved around stoppage. His brute force was a big change in the 3rd where he got 8 disposals and 5 score involvements.

 

[Ads734]

Play effectively in his best role, which is forward and which he has generally done so far this season.

Great, so why would you not want to move some of that quality on the ball.

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

You got four right. Owens at 59 games played at 13 disposals per game. Those aren't "could potentially move into the midfield" numbers.

Being played forward right now. Once we have more options I reckon he’s a heeney style mid forward

 

[Browny2Carlisle]

Play effectively in his best role, which is forward and which he has generally done so far this season.

So no nas midfield then?

 

[MordySaint]

No, I don't have a problem with a coach giving a player a serve. I was talking about Garcia being dragged so early in the game. I don't know what the world record is for a non injured player to be subbed out of a game but Garcia's must be pretty close to it.

I only commented on it because I thought is was unusual.

Our weakness is well and truly our midfield... and we are getting smashed there week in week out. To sub a midfielder off then replace with a midfielder says Lyon is happy with the midfield numbers and just wants to try something different. Then we put more numbers around the ball. Mmmm

P.S I like Jones, he should be starting anyway

Arie averaging 18.5 disposals, 76% efficiency, 4 marks, 7 rebound 50s, 7 intercepts, 435m gained and 100% dropped rate

Putting Arie on Bont was a huge job. Bont's ball use actually dropped after half time. He's got one huge strength which is his kick, which is more than some other players on our list.

 

[The Punter]

Great, so why would you not want to move some of that quality on the ball.

Because I don't think the quality will translate the way you want it to. I think he's better constantly on the move than from stationery, and everyone starts stationery around stoppage. Despite that, he doesn't get much easy ball either.

So no nas midfield then?

NWM has shown an ability to get high possession numbers already. He's now playing more midfield time so we will see how he goes. On evidence of things seen, NWM seems a better potential mid than Owens.

 

[Ads734]

Because I don't think the quality will translate the way you want it to. I think he's better constantly on the move than from stationery, and everyone starts stationery around stoppage. Despite that, he doesn't get much easy ball either.

NWM has shown an ability to get high possession numbers already. He's now playing more midfield time so we will see how he goes. On evidence of things seen, NWM seems a better potential mid than Owens.

Well yes he’s not going to dominate straight away. Also I dissagree, I think Chito standing start, especially on ball is quite effective.

Hence why he’s sometimes good in the ruck.

 

[SG34]

This guy has a good show on SaintsTV..take home message. 1) we need to win clearance, 2) we are not that bad.

 

[saintbill]

You got four right. Owens at 59 games played at 13 disposals per game. Those aren't "could potentially move into the midfield" numbers.

Not easy getting a kick in our forward line. He hasn't been given enough opportunities to be ruled out as a mid.

He may never be a high disposal mid, but he has the potential to be a centre clearance beast.

 

[Premium]

Play effectively in his best role, which is forward and which he has generally done so far this season.

Owens has never been given a role in the midfield , only as a ruckman which is a joke.
Everyone said he needs to be in the midfield from Hannerberry to even Steele.
But for some reason they have never given him a chance and with our midfield being crap it is mind blowing he is not given that inside mid role.

Surely he would be better than Steele atm.

 

[Premium]

Not easy getting a kick in our forward line. He hasn't been given enough opportunities to be ruled out as a mid.

He may never be a high disposal mid, but he has the potential to be a centre clearance beast.

The thing is atm any one we have would do better than what are mids are doing - not counting Macrae

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

Not easy getting a kick in our forward line. He hasn't been given enough opportunities to be ruled out as a mid.

He may never be a high disposal mid, but he has the potential to be a centre clearance beast.

Owens has never been given a role in the midfield , only as a ruckman which is a joke.
Everyone said he needs to be in the midfield from Hannerberry to even Steele.
But for some reason they have never given him a chance and with our midfield being crap it is mind blowing he is not given that inside mid role.

Surely he would be better than Steele atm.

Nat Fyfe I hope he plays like

 

[Premium]

Nat Fyfe I hope he plays like

We need to go through all our options - Owens / Phillipou / Boxsell and Macrae you has been our only true midfield performer.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Owens has never been given a role in the midfield , only as a ruckman which is a joke.
Everyone said he needs to be in the midfield from Hannerberry to even Steele.
But for some reason they have never given him a chance and with our midfield being crap it is mind blowing he is not given that inside mid role.

Surely he would be better than Steele atm.

Unlikely to beat the 19 contested possessions and 9 clearances Steele had against Brisbane.

 

[The Punter]

Unlikely to beat the 19 contested possessions and 9 clearances Steele had against Brisbane.

And Owens has had 19 contested possessions in a game once.

Don't get me wrong: I love me some Owens. Perhaps the most competitive Saint I've ever seen. A gun. But a gun third forward.

 

[Saintbloke]

Unlikely to beat the 19 contested possessions and 9 clearances Steele had against Brisbane.

But Steele's possessions were not effective, and his opponent Neale's were, and set up goals. We need not only to get the ball, but use it effectively, not just chip it around or cough it up with the next movement after winning possessions. I would like Owens to at least spend more time in the middle, but Lyon is not an adventurous coach, never has been and will not break out of his system regardless.

 

[thekizzler]

Arie averaging 18.5 disposals, 76% efficiency, 4 marks, 7 rebound 50s, 7 intercepts, 435m gained and 100% dropped rate

Man, I'm sick of people just rolling off stats. If stats were all that mattered, Riley Bonner would be All Australian and not playing VFL.

Have some awareness.

 

[thekizzler]

And Owens has had 19 contested possessions in a game once.

Don't get me wrong: I love me some Owens. Perhaps the most competitive Saint I've ever seen. A gun. But a gun third forward.

You very well could be right. In fact, I tend to lean in agreement to your point.

But it's definitely worth giving him some time through the midfield to see if he has it. He hasn't really had the opportunity to show his wares aside from the ruck stints. It probably won't work but I've seen more ridiculous experiments succeed.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

But Steele's possessions were not effective, and his opponent Neale's were, and set up goals. We need not only to get the ball, but use it effectively, not just chip it around or cough it up with the next movement after winning possessions. I would like Owens to at least spend more time in the middle, but Lyon is not an adventurous coach, never has been and will not break out of his system regardless.

I know that effective disposal stats are sus, but i don't want to watch that game again to go through steele's disposals one at a time.

Stats say that Steele had 23 effective disposals and Neale had 24.
Ashcroft had 29.
Metres gained was the big difference, Steele only had 150 metres, Neale had 493.
That could mean that Steele was palming it off to Nas or Hill.
Personally i think that handballing it to Nas is one of the most damaging things you could do.

Their movement into 50 was better than ours.
They locked it into their 50 better than we did.
Raynor, Ashcroft , Neal and McLuggage, had 31 inside 50s and 32 score involvements.
Hall, Windhager, Nas, Marshall and Macrae had 21 inside 50s and 26 score involvements.

It would be great to have Neale, but if you don't have someone who can win it on the inside and make an effective kick to the forwards, you have to find other methods.
We didn't have more turnovers than they did, but i'd argue that a lot of our turnovers were after we worked it forward.
If we'd had that last link in the chain we'd have done better.

 

[Premium]

I know that effective disposal stats are sus, but i don't want to watch that game again to go through steele's disposals one at a time.

Stats say that Steele had 23 effective disposals and Neale had 24.
Ashcroft had 29.
Metres gained was the big difference, Steele only had 150 metres, Neale had 493.
That could mean that Steele was palming it off to Nas or Hill.
Personally i think that handballing it to Nas is one of the most damaging things you could do.

Their movement into 50 was better than ours.
They locked it into their 50 better than we did.
Raynor, Ashcroft , Neal and McLuggage, had 31 inside 50s and 32 score involvements.
Hall, Windhager, Nas, Marshall and Macrae had 21 inside 50s and 26 score involvements.

It would be great to have Neale, but if you don't have someone who can win it on the inside and make an effective kick to the forwards, you have to find other methods.
We didn't have more turnovers than they did, but i'd argue that a lot of our turnovers were after we worked it forward.
If we'd had that last link in the chain we'd have done better.

Steele is having a good game today tagging Brayshaw , great but we need to have players who take the game on.
Time to try something different , Lyons game plan is working today but as we saw the last 2 weeks it didn't.
Steele has been brilliant for this team but he has been no where his best for many years and it' time now to find something more than playing a midfield that is basically just trying to tag the other teams mids..