Autopsy Round 8, 2021: Gold Coast v St.Kilda

Interestingly enough, their stats and their heat mates are close to identical. So even if the clubs are using them as differently as you say, they are still getting close to the same amount of possessions in similar areas each week. The only real difference is Ben's goal kicking is very accurate this year while Max keeps missing easy ones.

And funnily enough, the only game with a completely different heat map where Max stays completely inside 50 and every close to goal was the West Coast game which is the best game of his career so far.

They look completely different when you watch though, the ball literally falls on Max's head repeatedly with him flat footed. Most of Ben's work seems to be on a lead. It looks as if it's the coaches not him any way. We are using our race horse to pull a plough.
 

Tyrian Lonestar

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They look completely different when you watch though, the ball literally falls on Max's head repeatedly with him flat footed. Most of Ben's work seems to be on a lead. It looks as if it's the coaches not him any way. We are using our race horse to pull a plough.
That last sentence is absolutely spot on Gringo. We'll kill him if we don't set him free to lead, lead and lead again.
 
Wasn't that Richo's 2108 game?


Richo for a long time had a game plan where every player ran back to sure up defence then ran back to overlap run the ball forward. Then the game plan changed around 2018 to a more structured game plan where forwards tried to stay forward and each line tried to stand on their own and we went backwards and so went back to what we knew. Ratts was probably brought in to try to move away from the Richo chaos game plan.

Now it's the current trend. Also think that when we thrashed Richmond we caused Hardwick to adapt a more roll the ball forward with with run and gun game plan. Richo was before his time, just never had the quality on the list to execute it effectively.
 

bergholt

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Saad has been pretty good and Williams injuries haven't helped. It's not like the Mitch Mc Govern trade which is Bryce Gibbs like bad. I think they are paying Mc Gov about $900,000 a year to play reserves.

The McGovern trade was like a weird reverse moneyball. He never did much, stats not particularly impressive - except that he kicked 5.3 (his highest score) against Carlton, so they traded for him.
 
Rather than trying to turn Max into Ben can we just get Ben. Imagine our forward line with one on the lead and the other deep in the square.

Imagine Ben marking on the lead and then using the new stuck in the mud laws to turn and go quickly...I’ll bet his twin might have an inkling of what’s about to happen.
 
Dec 4, 2000
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I don't need to know what context it was said in , you dont rank your children , simples
Was ranking their football ability not the kids themselves. One of my daughters is a better dancer than the other, I must be a s**t father :thumbsu:
 
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The McGovern trade was like a weird reverse moneyball. He never did much, stats not particularly impressive - except that he kicked 5.3 (his highest score) against Carlton, so they traded for him.

"Who is that player Smithers."?
 
Probably suggests that there is no need to catastrophize a few weeks of bad form, especially when a player is returning from injury.

Jones was very good last year and has shown again this year how important he is to our midfield. In 3 of our 4 wins, he has been a major part of our midfield getting on top and turning the momentum our way.


Jones started last year like a star but ended it like he was just going. His body is a bit injury prone and I think he struggled when sides put a lot of time into him. Crouch is probably the player that helps him most because if you sit on one the other gets free. Just needs to stay healthy now.
 
Saad was a stupid trade to get someone who is nothing more than a runing hbf.

At least Zac Jones looked (and is now proving) capable of stepping up to a midfield position.

Here's what Carlton could have got for virtually nothing to get tne same style of player.



Hind was a bargain in comparison but Carlton needed some run off half back and paid up big to get a guaranteed one. We had Hind and didn't use him in his best spot, Essendon could remember his VFL form from the past so knew what they were getting. I think Williams and Saad have improved them despite not helping get a win yesterday. They paid top dollar for them and they were no bargains but they haven't been total busts either.
 

LiterallyNobody

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Was ranking their football ability not the kids themselves. One of my dauggters is a better dancer than the other, I must be a sh*t father :thumbsu:
One of my sons is better than the other at basketball. The other one is a better soccer player. I’m probably worse than Hitler right?
 
Was ranking their football ability not the kids themselves. One of my dauggters is a better dancer than the other, I must be a sh*t father :thumbsu:
So i take it you have told her she is not as good as her sister ,,,, Yeah right .
Its one thing to have those thoughts but its another thing to say it ,
 
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So i take it you have told her she is not as good as her sister ,,,, Yeah right .
Its one thing to have those thoughts but its another thing to say it ,

Of course I have said, it, it is ******* obvious. She says it herself. What fairly land do you live in?
 

bergholt

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We're not very good at brothers. Some brothers we've had on our lists, along with whether they're the better brother:

- King - ?
- McCartin - NO
- Crouch - MAYBE
- Jones - MAYBE
- Phillips - NO
- Weller - NO
- Murdoch - NO
- Crocker - NO
- Simpkin - NO
- Connors - NO
- Clarke - doesn't count because we had them both
- Ball - YES
- Houlihan - NO
- Schwarze - doesn't count because we had them both
- Voss - NO
- Carr - NO
- Gowans - doesn't count because we had them both

Not to mention of course Aaron Hamill who never reached the heights of his much older brother Mark Hamill.

Have I missed any in there? Maybe we should just stop picking guys who have brothers.
 
We were at the ground on the weekend and watched Max King intently.

His body language is representative of the teams, looking lethargic and flat for most of the game. He is getting to contests only to drop marks, and when he does take them, miss the goals. Not for one second am I writing him off, more of an observation of where he is at. Lacking desire - that killer instinct to tear a game apart - more happy to play a role and take satisfaction from another 'what if' game.

Gold Coast were intent on getting a lot of numbers back to slow down any slingshot scoring, which seems their MO for this season - which obviously doesn't help.
 

AirWinmar

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Haven't watched Ben play that much, but my impression is he does everything you would teach a key forward to do and does it very well.

Where as Max doesnt yet have those key forward basics down - the goal kicking needs work, needs to hold more marks, needs to lead more - but he has a huge bag of tricks that are just sublime and not like what any other key forward can do.
The upside is Max is currently 17th in the league for contesteded marks while also dropping a few per game he should take. I'd say this is more a mental thing and he will soon be cluncking a lot more. Probably similar with his kicking as he is a ripping field kick.
 

Saintbloke

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We were at the ground on the weekend and watched Max King intently.

His body language is representative of the teams, looking lethargic and flat for most of the game. He is getting to contests only to drop marks, and when he does take them, miss the goals. Not for one second am I writing him off, more of an observation of where he is at. Lacking desire - that killer instinct to tear a game apart - more happy to play a role and take satisfaction from another 'what if' game.

Gold Coast were intent on getting a lot of numbers back to slow down any slingshot scoring, which seems their MO for this season - which obviously doesn't help.
He is no Lockett or Loewe who can out-muscle their man to mark, he is an athletic tall who needs to be mobile and IMO, a total waste standing like a witch's hat at FF.
 
We're not very good at brothers. Some brothers we've had on our lists, along with whether they're the better brother:

- King - ?
- McCartin - NO
- Crouch - MAYBE
- Jones - MAYBE
- Phillips - NO
- Weller - NO
- Murdoch - NO
- Crocker - NO
- Simpkin - NO
- Connors - NO
- Clarke - doesn't count because we had them both
- Ball - YES
- Houlihan - NO
- Schwarze - doesn't count because we had them both
- Voss - NO
- Carr - NO
- Gowans - doesn't count because we had them both

Not to mention of course Aaron Hamill who never reached the heights of his much older brother Mark Hamill.

Have I missed any in there? Maybe we should just stop picking guys who have brothers.


I remember Grant Thomas saying that we had the best Houlihan brother.
 

LeonardHayes87

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For context I met Brook King at the races and spent some time with him at the pub afterwards. He wasn’t degrading Ben he just simply said Max has always been the more talented (at football) of the two. Ben may end up having a better career but he was just stating his view to date. He also said it was inevitable Ben returns to VIC to play with Max as it’s been their lifelong dream.
 
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Jones started last year like a star but ended it like he was just going. His body is a bit injury prone and I think he struggled when sides put a lot of time into him. Crouch is probably the player that helps him most because if you sit on one the other gets free. Just needs to stay healthy now.
A lot of players struggle once they start being tagged for the first time. At least that took the attention off Steele. Feels like Crouch has allowed him to be more an outside runner the past few weeks which adds great dimension to the midfield. His speed makes us much more dynamic.

Agreed, he needs to stay healthy and we will need to manage those hamstrings carefully. But I just cant see how anyone could put that trade in the Hill and Hanners category. Even with his slow start to the season, it has been a very very good trade for us.
 
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The upside is Max is currently 17th in the league for contesteded marks while also dropping a few per game he should take. I'd say this is more a mental thing and he will soon be cluncking a lot more. Probably similar with his kicking as he is a ripping field kick.
I think we are so impatient for another A grade key forward that we sometimes forgot how young and inexperienced he is. There wouldn't be many key forwards 25 games into their career that receive as much attention on field that Max does, yet his output this far into his career is still pretty good. The fact he still needs to work on so many basics of his game yet still demands the ball and the opposition need to put time into his is just a testament to how much talent he has.

It's easy to compare him to say Bing, Naughton and McKay as the up and coming key forwards of the comp but those 3 have all played to much more football than him over recent years.

Agree it appears to be a confidence issue right now, especially his kicking. He seems very in his head about it because he knows its been an issue this year. He just needs one of those games where everything bounces his way to get that confidence back.
 

LiterallyNobody

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For context I met Brook King at the races and spent some time with him at the pub afterwards. He wasn’t degrading Ben he just simply said Max has always been the more talented (at football) of the two. Ben may end up having a better career but he was just stating his view to date. He also said it was inevitable Ben returns to VIC to play with Max as it’s been their lifelong dream.
Wow that’s massive if true.
 
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