Autopsy Round 8, 2021: Gold Coast v St.Kilda

[flyingmagic]

I just dont understand this.

For me, JWebb should be the clear number 1 option here.

In case anyone needs a reminder, see below. But don't look at the goal. Look at the delivery. That has always been the brilliance in this clip!

Dont get me wrong, I understand when Pato went down and JWebb wasnt fit, why they might have looked at Howard. Stability in this role is important, and Howard plays every week. Tick. But Coffield is more than capable. Battle also capable and a lovely kick (if it occurred to anyone that he is actually a defender and not a wingman). There is simply no good reason why Howard should STILL be doing this. Yes he is a long kick. But the extra 10-25 metres can more then easily be made up by playing on.

What is Rath seeing that we (and every other team) aren't? Utterly bizarre. Or is this Hamill's call? Either way, just makes no sense to me

I presume the reasons would be:

a) Howard is probably our longest kick.
b) He probably plays closest to goal which decreases the amount of time to take the kick in and therefore allows less time for the opposition to set up.

But I don't really understand it. Whilst I think Howard gets a bit of an unfair wrap (I don't think his kicking is THAT bad), I still wouldn't say he is one of our best kicks.

With that said, I do think he has probably been our second best player this season, which is what the AFL player ratings have him as. Also rated as the third best key defender in the competition. He's been massive for us and I don't know where our defence would be without him. Still young with plenty of leadership material, it's been a great trade for us.

 

[flyingmagic]

I think we are so impatient for another A grade key forward that we sometimes forgot how young and inexperienced he is. There wouldn't be many key forwards 25 games into their career that receive as much attention on field that Max does, yet his output this far into his career is still pretty good. The fact he still needs to work on so many basics of his game yet still demands the ball and the opposition need to put time into his is just a testament to how much talent he has.

It's easy to compare him to say Bing, Naughton and McKay as the up and coming key forwards of the comp but those 3 have all played to much more football than him over recent years.

Agree it appears to be a confidence issue right now, especially his kicking. He seems very in his head about it because he knows its been an issue this year. He just needs one of those games where everything bounces his way to get that confidence back.

He has been great. Kicking 1.7 goals a game in his second season is a pretty good effort. The only difference between him and bing is his accuracy.

Max is kicking 1.7 goals and 1.9 behinds a game. Ben is kicking 2.9 goals and 1 behind a game.

Considering he has missed a year, it's not a bad effort especially when he is at least 2-3 years from really hitting his stride and having a big body.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Jones started last year like a star but ended it like he was just going. His body is a bit injury prone and I think he struggled when sides put a lot of time into him. Crouch is probably the player that helps him most because if you sit on one the other gets free. Just needs to stay healthy now.

I think it was after Gresham went down he struggled.

To me Jones almost does his best work a bit more outside, but if the ball is there to be won he digs in and gets it.
You can almost see it when he's got time and space, he lines up his kicks more carefully and hits targets. If he's in to tight it might spray anywhere.

Contested Possessions against the Suns.
Marshall and Steele , 11
Jones 10.
Sinclair , Crouch , Webster and King 9.
Butler , Ryder and Higgins 8.
Battle , Billings and Byrnes 6.

I'm pretty happy seeing those sort of numbers from the likes of Sinclair, Butler, Higgins and Byrnes.

 

[gringo2011]

We're not very good at brothers. Some brothers we've had on our lists, along with whether they're the better brother:

- King - ?
- McCartin - NO
- Crouch - MAYBE
- Jones - MAYBE
- Phillips - NO
- Weller - NO
- Murdoch - NO
- Crocker - NO
- Simpkin - NO
- Connors - NO
- Clarke - doesn't count because we had them both
- Ball - YES
- Houlihan - NO
- Schwarze - doesn't count because we had them both
- Voss - NO
- Carr - NO
- Gowans - doesn't count because we had them both

Not to mention of course Aaron Hamill who never reached the heights of his much older brother Mark Hamill.

Have I missed any in there? Maybe we should just stop picking guys who have brothers.

Wakelins too.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Wow that’s massive if true.

Dad's don't always know everything though.

On Talent. Ben may be aware of a talent gap, and depending on his nature , may work hard to close that gap. I reckon a good portion of Garry Ablett Jr's ability came from a desire to prove himself to the old man.

People change, and GC have taken a gamble with it. If Ben has a good experience with Gold Coast and settles in nicely there , then his childhood team may take less of a priority in his life. It only takes a "local" girl and everything can be derailed.

 

[Minga]

Been super impressed with Crouch so far. If he can keep his body injury free then he’s doing exactly what we brought him in for. A consistent no-fuss mid of his calibre for the price we got him is , just hope he stays at it. Could be very handy against Geelong...

 

[gringo2011]

I think we are so impatient for another A grade key forward that we sometimes forgot how young and inexperienced he is. There wouldn't be many key forwards 25 games into their career that receive as much attention on field that Max does, yet his output this far into his career is still pretty good. The fact he still needs to work on so many basics of his game yet still demands the ball and the opposition need to put time into his is just a testament to how much talent he has.

It's easy to compare him to say Bing, Naughton and McKay as the up and coming key forwards of the comp but those 3 have all played to much more football than him over recent years.

Agree it appears to be a confidence issue right now, especially his kicking. He seems very in his head about it because he knows its been an issue this year. He just needs one of those games where everything bounces his way to get that confidence back.

It's hard when there is a direct comparison in his twin brother that is going better. Max looks low on self confidence, he rushes little stabs at goal like he doesn't want time to think about it. Ben looks like he's got no pressure on him ever and seems to slow down before kicking.

Naughton just looks so exciting so far and easy to get sucked into the hype. His marking is like vintage Carey and he splits packs like a classic power forward. He's a real alpha type who seems to relish the attention where Max almost looks shy on field.

 

[#gosaintas]

It's hard when there is a direct comparison in his twin brother that is going better. Max looks low on self confidence, he rushes little stabs at goal like he doesn't want time to think about it. Ben looks like he's got no pressure on him ever and seems to slow down before kicking.

Naughton just looks so exciting so far and easy to get sucked into the hype. His marking is like vintage Carey and he splits packs like a classic power forward. He's a real alpha type who seems to relish the attention where Max almost looks shy on field.

Max looks terrified on the field. He fumbles and bumbles his marks and hates himself for it. He knows he's gonna miss sitters and hates himself for it. Walks off the field after a win knowing he dropped sitters again and missed sitters again. Looks like he hates footy altogether. Looks utterly dejected.

 

[Noidenous]

Good for you then ,

 

[BrutThough]

It's hard when there is a direct comparison in his twin brother that is going better. Max looks low on self confidence, he rushes little stabs at goal like he doesn't want time to think about it. Ben looks like he's got no pressure on him ever and seems to slow down before kicking.

Naughton just looks so exciting so far and easy to get sucked into the hype. His marking is like vintage Carey and he splits packs like a classic power forward. He's a real alpha type who seems to relish the attention where Max almost looks shy on field.

I think we need to stop comparing Max to Ben - and we are all guilty of it - especially since they are at different points of their development right now. Max essentially missed 2 years of football with his injuries while Ben was developing and improving his game that entire time. And it is always said that it takes around 50 games for young players to find consistency in their games - Max is only half way to that mark while Ben should hit it this year.

Naughton looks really good but he is still developing and having bad moments in games too, we just don't dwell on them as opposition supporters the way we do with King. He's also someone 60 games into his career and played senior football in the WAFL before being drafted so naturally he's going to be more confident at AFL level.

As much as we all want Max to come out and be the most dominant young player in the comp right now, we just need to keep be patient with him and stop judging him so harshly.

 

[Tyrian Lonestar]

Max looks terrified on the field. He fumbles and bumbles his marks and hates himself for it. He knows he's gonna miss sitters and hates himself for it. Walks off the field after a win knowing he dropped sitters again and missed sitters again. Looks like he hates footy altogether. Looks utterly dejected.

Max needs a hug from Ratts & Ruffy

 

[stfan]

The use of King is very questionable. Would rather Roma parked under the high ball.

You are polite. I think it just plain stupid. He is a young and talented key forward, but who is still lacking experience and strong body. Even for a Charlie Dixon type it would be silly.

Roma may go better with it, but the opposition would still just provide an outnumber at the contest make it a low % ploy.

Bombing it in this way should just be a Hail Mary option you do when forced to, rather than being the go to option.

 

[The_Steadier]

Unbelievable terrible game

The new stand on the mark rule this year has made football = netball.

Simply because now you don't need to kick up and over someone in front of you to pass to a teammate.
You can now kick a low pass to a teammate (if you're skills are good enough) with clear air in front of you all over the ground.

Pass, pass, pass, pass, shoot.

Turnover (or goal)

Then the other team get a turn:

Pass, pass, pass, pass, shoot.

Turnover

Etc etc.


At least we are getting with the program now and playing keepings off too.
It's good to get a win against a team playing keepings off- but we'll need to be much better next week.

The cats are way better at netball than the suns.

The cats have been playing netball style football for years, no surprise they are thriving with the new stand rule.

 

[Browny2Carlisle]

Dewey has Ben leading to the ball while we have Max leading away from the ball most the time.

 

[FQFjt]

The way King is being used, I am half expecting it to be leaked at some point during the season that Max is playing with some injury that prevents him from sprinting.

 

[Mangus]

It's hard when there is a direct comparison in his twin brother that is going better. Max looks low on self confidence, he rushes little stabs at goal like he doesn't want time to think about it. Ben looks like he's got no pressure on him ever and seems to slow down before kicking.

Naughton just looks so exciting so far and easy to get sucked into the hype. His marking is like vintage Carey and he splits packs like a classic power forward. He's a real alpha type who seems to relish the attention where Max almost looks shy on field.

The number of times Max gets himself clear hands on the ball in contested marking contests and out of the reach of his opponents is where the hype comes from. For now he is dropping more than he is taking of those clear cut opportunities, mostly I think due to a lack of core strength. The moment he gets body contact the ball is jarred loose he needs more time in the gym and game time learning how to take the bumps and still hold his position. He is still a kid with plenty of growth to come. Takes a long time for Key Forwards to fully develop. (Plugger the obvious exception to this rule) 25 games in he is getting the best defender each week we are all a little impatient.

 

[snails13]

Saad has been pretty good and Williams injuries haven't helped. It's not like the Mitch Mc Govern trade which is Bryce Gibbs like bad. I think they are paying Mc Gov about $900,000 a year to play reserves.

McGovern was a bad Trade

 

[StCicatriz]

The way King is being used, I am half expecting it to be leaked at some point during the season that Max is playing with some injury that prevents him from sprinting.

i think he's struggling at time to run the games out at a level that allows him to compete. the bombing it on his head doesn't exactly work all the time.

what we really are missing is a genuine lead up forward. membrey like the ball at this head, from a standing jump. he's not getting on a lead.

marshall shows signs of it and does it. battle shows signs but goes missing.

if we can get a genuine lead up forward, it means king will no longer have to compete against 2-3 defenders. right now, they play king with two talls on him, knowing the ball is coming in high and there is a low chance of a lead getting honoured from the other forwards in membrey, battle, marshall. king's life gets easier when someone like membrey or marshall is clunking them and converting.

right now it's hard because we are not getting the plays out of the others.

i'd kill for a kennedy type. he'd compliment King to no end. similar to what kennedy has done for Darling and Allen.

maybe the long term plan is Ben at CHF and King deep. playing membrey on the flank and marshall pinch hitting. there's no way a defence would cover that setup. it's just too tall.

 

[plugger66]

The new stand on the mark rule this year have made football = netball.

Simply because now you don't need to kick up and over someone in front of you to pass to a teammate.
You can now kick a low pass to a teammate (if you're skills are good enough) with clear air in front of you all over the ground.

Pass, pass, pass, pass, shoot.

Turnover (or goal)

Then the other team get a turn:

Pass, pass, pass, pass, shoot.

Turnover

Etc etc.


At least we are getting with the program now and playing keepings off too.
It's good to get a win against a team playing keepings off- but we'll need to be much better next week.

The cats are way better at netball than the suns.

The cats have been playing netball style football for years, no surprise they are thriving with the new stand rule.

The new rule has moved it back to footy. Everyone loves the old footy well most seem to say so. You know what the man on the mark did back then. Yep you guessed it or at should have. He did nothing. Just stood there. Then coaches got smarter and got the player on the mark to go inboard so the player with the ball just went long down the line. Great rule.

 

[FQFjt]

i think he's struggling at time to run the games out at a level that allows him to compete. the bombing it on his head doesn't exactly work all the time.

what we really are missing is a genuine lead up forward. membrey like the ball at this head, from a standing jump. he's not getting on a lead.

marshall shows signs of it and does it. battle shows signs but goes missing.

if we can get a genuine lead up forward, it means king will no longer have to compete against 2-3 defenders. right now, they play king with two talls on him, knowing the ball is coming in high and there is a low chance of a lead getting honoured from the other forwards in membrey, battle, marshall. king's life gets easier when someone like membrey or marshall is clunking them and converting.

right now it's hard because we are not getting the plays out of the others.

i'd kill for a kennedy type. he'd compliment King to no end. similar to what kennedy has done for Darling and Allen.

maybe the long term plan is Ben at CHF and King deep. playing membrey on the flank and marshall pinch hitting. there's no way a defence would cover that setup. it's just too tall.

Small sample size, I know, but Geary showed some very good leading ability when he played that game against Carlton last year (while also doing a defensive role on Docherty). Geary also said this week that he spent the preseason training with the forwards. He's back playing for Sandy this week.

 

[CaptainRisky]

 

[gringo2011]

Max looks terrified on the field. He fumbles and bumbles his marks and hates himself for it. He knows he's gonna miss sitters and hates himself for it. Walks off the field after a win knowing he dropped sitters again and missed sitters again. Looks like he hates footy altogether. Looks utterly dejected.

He definitely looks like it's not enjoyable right now. He needs a good sports psych. They should chase down that woman that does mindfulness at the Tigers Emma Murray. I'm pretty sure she was involved with us at one point.

 

[gringo2011]

i think he's struggling at time to run the games out at a level that allows him to compete. the bombing it on his head doesn't exactly work all the time.

what we really are missing is a genuine lead up forward. membrey like the ball at this head, from a standing jump. he's not getting on a lead.

marshall shows signs of it and does it. battle shows signs but goes missing.

if we can get a genuine lead up forward, it means king will no longer have to compete against 2-3 defenders. right now, they play king with two talls on him, knowing the ball is coming in high and there is a low chance of a lead getting honoured from the other forwards in membrey, battle, marshall. king's life gets easier when someone like membrey or marshall is clunking them and converting.

right now it's hard because we are not getting the plays out of the others.

i'd kill for a kennedy type. he'd compliment King to no end. similar to what kennedy has done for Darling and Allen.

maybe the long term plan is Ben at CHF and King deep. playing membrey on the flank and marshall pinch hitting. there's no way a defence would cover that setup. it's just too tall.

Yeah someone like Josh Bruce to take the heat off him and let him develop at his own pace.

 

[FQFjt]

Yeah someone like Josh Bruce to take the heat off him and let him develop at his own pace.

If we had kept and played Bruce, then our VC Membrey would be doing the same thing that the Dogs' VC Wallis is doing now - playing reserves.

 

[Yawkey way]

????

I think we need to stop comparing Max to Ben - and we are all guilty of it - especially since they are at different points of their development right now. Max essentially missed 2 years of football with his injuries while Ben was developing and improving his game that entire time. And it is always said that it takes around 50 games for young players to find consistency in their games - Max is only half way to that mark while Ben should hit it this year.

Naughton looks really good but he is still developing and having bad moments in games too, we just don't dwell on them as opposition supporters the way we do with King. He's also someone 60 games into his career and played senior football in the WAFL before being drafted so naturally he's going to be more confident at AFL level.

As much as we all want Max to come out and be the most dominant young player in the comp right now, we just need to keep be patient with him and stop judging him so harshly.

I don’t think most posters are being too harsh on Ming.

My expectations are fairly modest, I want him to lead and use his pace. I want him to mark the ball when he should for example dropping uncontested marks is just not good enough. I want him to have a goal kicking routine and to stick with it and kick for goal like he wants the ball in his hands.

Imo that’s a pretty reasonable list of expectations, if he can meet those the rest of his game will follow.