Autopsy Round 8, 2021: Hawks stretched by Eagles

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savagelunchbox

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How do we execute this mythical fast style that we train for? Essendon seem to manage it. We can seem to only do it vs other bottom 4 sides when engaged in a shoot out.

Even if we train for a quicker offensive style, Clarko preaches defence (defend first, attack second) so am sure that’s always in back of players minds when making the 50/50 calls irrespective of what our offensive ball movement is meant to look like.

We could release the shackles and risk large losses but that’s not really in Clarkos playbook (or only really done at end of season). At some point we may have to as if we effectively spend a whole season not implementing our preferred game plan that seems a wasted year?

Having a crap list also doesn’t help.
Having forwards who are allowed to lead from the goal square up to the 70m area would give us an option to kick to and the midfield incentive to get it down there quicker. Unfortunately the only time our forwards lead is to get on the half back line.

Having a half forward line instead of a 6-man forward crowd would also help.
 

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Hawker55

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Congratulations on today’s positives if you believe in them, if you have the guts to call it out we are at 2005 if not worse. That’s not a bad thing if you confront it but the bullshit message from Kennett and Reeves not referring to rebuild is boring.
So we’re three years from a Premiership?
 

Carl Spackler

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North will probably not put us under the same pressure and are unlikely to punish as much as west coast. So I expect to see more fluid ball movement subject to having Gunston back so we have someone to kick to.

but in the medium term it is going to be a case of players getting slowly better at it. Some players will not get better and have to be left out of the side for someone else but it is hard to make full judgment s when the cohesion and execution under pressure is so poor. Buckle up as we will have more bad weeks than good this year but the investment is made for the future.
I agree with you about North. I expect more of an Adelaide/Essendon type contest with them. Hopefully not coming back from 5-6 goals down in the third quarter, though.

I have decided against the game plan, ignorant of the details though I may be. It appears to me from the results that it is either too difficult for the group to play or not appropriate for AFL-level competition. Could different players implement the plan better? Perhaps. But I'm starting to get the feeling that it may be too clever by half. There is so much indecision involved. Not skill errors but decision-making hesitation. After all this time guys are still hesitating? Either they don't get it or they do get it but the other team's pressure too easily disrupts it.

I'm starting to think the latter, that it is an easy setup to counter, because it seems the game plan never clicks except against the most lowly competition. Against top sides this year, or last season in the hub, I can't recall even a five-minute period where we got off the hook against good competition. I can recall a lot of keeping it close with strong defensive positioning, but can't recall being on top offensively at all. Sure, a bit jaded, but I still can't name a game.

Anyways, we'll see against North. If that's a brain-addled, low-effort slog then I guess I'll hibernate until the team makes a strategic move as I reckon that's about the need at this point. Hard to believe I'm saying it.
 

Brishawk

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I agree with you about North. I expect more of an Adelaide/Essendon type contest with them. Hopefully not coming back from 5-6 goals down in the third quarter, though.

I have decided against the game plan, ignorant of the details though I may be. It appears to me from the results that it is either too difficult for the group to play or not appropriate for AFL-level competition. Could different players implement the plan better? Perhaps. But I'm starting to get the feeling that it may be too clever by half. There is so much indecision involved. Not skill errors but decision-making hesitation. After all this time guys are still hesitating? Either they don't get it or they do get it but the other team's pressure too easily disrupts it.

I'm starting to think the latter, that it is an easy setup to counter, because it seems the game plan never clicks except against the most lowly competition. Against top sides this year, or last season in the hub, I can't recall even a five-minute period where we got off the hook against good competition. I can recall a lot of keeping it close with strong defensive positioning, but can't recall being on top offensively at all. Sure, a bit jaded, but I still can't name a game.

Anyways, we'll see against North. If that's a brain-addled, low-effort slog then I guess I'll hibernate until the team makes a strategic move as I reckon that's about the need at this point. Hard to believe I'm saying it.
My view is we don’t have enough foot speed forward of chb for it to function correctly, coupled with a very inexperienced forward line. If we had only on of those two issues it might work more often but at present we just don’t have the cattle. Of course the only way to gain experience is to play so we are going to suffer through it for a couple of years I’m guessing. But we will be better in the long run.

we aren’t doing anything that is entirely novel so I don’t see it as in appropriate for AFL level. Switch play, hit a runner in board and deliver it kpf either leading up or over the back. Smalls gather around for the crumbs.
 

Rev08

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Yeah, we weren't rebuilding the entire list with 22 selections in 1 draft.

Posters have forgotten how long it took to do the last rebuild. Hint: it didn't start in 2004
From 04-06 we brought in 17 players via the national draft. The other draft that was a big contributor was 01 when we took 6 players. That’s 23 players in 4 drafts, including 9 first rounders and 7 second rounders. We hit the draft hard to maximise our chances of a successful rebuild. That is how we rebuilt the list. Not by simply taking the 3 or 4 picks we are dealt each year by way of our finishing position. We were bold at the trade table and it reaped the richest of dividends.
 

TylerDurden

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From 04-06 we brought in 17 players via the national draft. The other draft that was a big contributor was 01 when we took 6 players. That’s 23 players in 4 drafts, including 9 first rounders and 7 second rounders. We hit the draft hard to maximise our chances of a successful rebuild. That is how we rebuilt the list. Not by simply taking the 3 or 4 picks we are dealt each year by way of our finishing position. We were bold at the trade table and it reaped the richest of dividends.
Many have potted Pelchen over the years. But he knew how to build a list.
 

Jazzfan

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From 04-06 we brought in 17 players via the national draft. The other draft that was a big contributor was 01 when we took 6 players. That’s 23 players in 4 drafts, including 9 first rounders and 7 second rounders. We hit the draft hard to maximise our chances of a successful rebuild. That is how we rebuilt the list. Not by simply taking the 3 or 4 picks we are dealt each year by way of our finishing position. We were bold at the trade table and it reaped the richest of dividends.
Fantastic post.
 

MrPremiership

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From 04-06 we brought in 17 players via the national draft. The other draft that was a big contributor was 01 when we took 6 players. That’s 23 players in 4 drafts, including 9 first rounders and 7 second rounders. We hit the draft hard to maximise our chances of a successful rebuild. That is how we rebuilt the list. Not by simply taking the 3 or 4 picks we are dealt each year by way of our finishing position. We were bold at the trade table and it reaped the richest of dividends.
thats 6 players per draft then.
Last year we added DGB, Mitchell, Downie, Brockman, Saunders, Bramble. That's 6. In a heavily compromised draft!

How many else do we need to take in 1 year?

The other issue is we don't have as many "assets" to trade away to get back into the draft. Realistically, how many players on our list get us top 10 picks?
 

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Rev08

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thats 6 players per draft then.
Last year we added DGB, Mitchell, Downie, Brockman, Saunders, Bramble. That's 6. In a heavily compromised draft!

How many else do we need to take in 1 year?

The other issue is we don't have as many "assets" to trade away to get back into the draft. Realistically, how many players on our list get us top 10 picks?
No no, that was only players taken in the national draft. If you take in rookie picks, we brought in 39 players across 4 drafts, almost 10 a year.

We have plenty of assets, we just have to be bold enough to use some of them.
 

HODGEYROAD

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thats 6 players per draft then.
Last year we added DGB, Mitchell, Downie, Brockman, Saunders, Bramble. That's 6. In a heavily compromised draft!

How many else do we need to take in 1 year?

The other issue is we don't have as many "assets" to trade away to get back into the draft. Realistically, how many players on our list get us top 10 picks?
Sicily ? JOM? Chad ? Mitchell? Day ? DGB ? Probably those 6 would be the chance. The 2 I'd have on the table would be Chad and Tom.
 

Pessimistic

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Our list is terrible but its the reason why which upsets most supporters. We chose to top up and overpaid severley "coz Hawthorn just gets the trade done" rubbish. The pics alone given for JOM and Wingard were staggering. JOM had a major question mark over a serious knee injury which haunts us as we speak. Wingard has dodgy calves which also haunt us to this day. We paid Burton, first rounder and second rounder for Wingard yet didn't follow through on our initial interest on AMON who would have then cost a bag pf chips - this year he is AA form

We all love to pot Essendon but last year they refused to hand over 2x 1st rounders for Dunkley. Their last offer was 1x first rounder and a second which was fair and reasonable. They walked away on a player who overall is far superior to Wingard yet we paid more than what Bulldogs wanted for Dunkley???

We could have backed out of both deals but kept bending over to both GC and Port Adelaide which wreaked of desperation, there was a time when we used to bend clubs over in trades. Don't get me started on our ruck division. Big Boy has been a warrior but got destroyed by Nick Nat who has done two knees. Ceglar has gone gun shy at centre bounces and is now a major liability yet has another year on is contract. WE have Reeves but he is still unproven and needs more time

I watched both Box Hill and yesterday's game and our depth in non existence and potentially the worst in the league. There is hope but we need to nail the draft this year and hopefully bring in some good players via trades
box hill were undersized in 2018 but dug deep, sometimes seconds away from losing and brought the flag home

current players in that team? O’Brien Jiath nash hanrahan Lewis Moore Worpel cousins.
 

Hawk_francais

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I’m guessing you’re not aware of what an RCA is.
I don’t believe you have any idea what you’re arguing about anymore. The team, and club by extension, wasn’t robust enough to deal with the challenges of the past few years. You’re making out like people at our club aren’t responsible for where we are at.

We wouldn’t give 2 seconds of airtime to a carlton or essendon supporter trying to explain away their team’s crapness on fixturing or coronavirus. We know it all comes back to decision-making, and in this industry there is no insurance policy and no take-backs.
 

Jazzfan

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thats 6 players per draft then.
Last year we added DGB, Mitchell, Downie, Brockman, Saunders, Bramble. That's 6. In a heavily compromised draft!

How many else do we need to take in 1 year?

The other issue is we don't have as many "assets" to trade away to get back into the draft. Realistically, how many players on our list get us top 10 picks?
I think we would could look at moving one of our senior players, that is open to moving and has value perhaps at a late first (a few spring to mind), and package this up with a pick in our 20s. To try and get another pick in the top 10.

Two picks in the top 10 and one around 20-23 would be a really good hand.
 
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Strapping Young Lad

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I don’t believe you have any idea what you’re arguing about anymore. The team, and club by extension, wasn’t robust enough to deal with the challenges of the past few years. You’re making out like people at our club aren’t responsible for where we are at.

We wouldn’t give 2 seconds of airtime to a carlton or essendon supporter trying to explain away their team’s crapness on fixturing or coronavirus. We know it all comes back to decision-making, and in this industry there is no insurance policy and no take-backs.
I know exactly what I’m arguing, and I’m not at all saying people aren’t responsible in some way.

I’m telling you the results of 2020 are linked to a number of details and factors and that two of the major ones were the fact we didn’t handle the hubs well and that we were handed the worst fixture in the comp to compound that fact. Both statements of fact.

Your earlier argument was that external factors are excuses because “we just weren’t good enough”.

That blanket you’ve thrown over 2020 lacks nuance, context, detail and reason.
 

Jazzfan

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I know exactly what I’m arguing, and I’m not at all saying people aren’t responsible in some way.

I’m telling you the results of 2020 are linked to a number of details and factors and that two of the major ones were the fact we didn’t handle the hubs well and that we were handed the worst fixture in the comp to compound that fact. Both statements of fact.

Your earlier argument was that external factors are excuses because “we just weren’t good enough”.

That blanket you’ve thrown over 2020 lacks nuance, context, detail and reason.
I don't understand this to be honest. I would argue the first 8 rounds of 2021 simply tell us we were a bottom 4 list in 2020. Like it wasn't an aberration last year.

Every team, but perhaps Brisbane and the Adelaide teams, had excuses last year. We only had to play every team once too, so it's not like we got screwed playing the best teams twice. We were, as we are now, simply one of the worst teams and lists in the AFL.

I believe the reasons you are mentioning, are very much what the club felt about 2020. I listened to Jeff Kennett before the start of the season. He said similar. He also said that we wouldn't be as bad this year... he could assure fans.

These are the reasons some fans are frustrated with how the club has seen what's been before our eyes. It's why questions of how we rebuild are topical, because even to start this year, the club didn't think we were this bad.

For reasons like you are referring to 2020. For reasons like we toped up for years. The club saw something, where there wasn't really anything.
 
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Strapping Young Lad

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I don't understand this to be honest. I would argue the first 8 rounds of 2021 simply tell us we were a bottom 4 list in 2020. Like it wasn't an aberration last year.

Every team, but perhaps Brisbane and the Adelaide teams, had excuses last year. We only had to play every team once too, so it's not like we got screwed playing the best teams twice. We were, as we are now, simply one of the worst teams and lists in the AFL.
The first 8 rounds of 2021 we have held three of the best teams for large parts of games, but we stripped the list in October last year and now we have little to fall back on as depth.

In 2020 we had a better 22 with more class and experience out on the park(Gunston, Sic, JOM, Tom, Wingard, Smith, Worp etc)and we were worse even with them all out there.
 

Smooth Banana

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This is a player who’s talent and skills are being wasted playing in defence. :(


View attachment 1122634
Going great for my Supercoach 😊 that's where I'm at. Getting harder to watch full games now, skills have fallen off. We simply need more quality players. For the first time in a long time I actually want us to finish 2nd or 3rd last (respectable losses of course with a few short term injuries). Trade a top player 27+ (take your pick) for a high pick. Load up on high picks and add to the young players we have like May. Get a few more Mays. All in all a bit disgusted yes but we just don't have the stock. Silver lining is that it can be turned around with good recruiting and scouting, Port is a good example. Last couple years have been exceptional recruiting from them, they obviously have a good scout(s)
 

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