Preview Round 9, 2021: Hawks v Roos, 2:10pm 15th May @ UTAS

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darthmann

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So what is his role? Even in contested possessions, Ranked 20th in the league is pretty ordinary considering you're getting that much of the pill. 34.3 is his average, 11.5 are contested. Should be creating more when he has uncontested possessions.
i wont type out fully what I think his role is but in short hes basically often playing back of the ball as the link-up man in chains of possession off HB and out of the D50. He will cover the ground backwards to provide a release (kinda like a pressure valve) for contested ball inside the D50. In the mids he will swing the ball, quite often to the left, looking for a player running past (with our current gameplan its intended to be a HB) to run and carry. Alternatively, he will kick the ball I50 himself, but usually he defers to more penetrating kicks.

So he is usually the 2nd player in a chain of 3.

That's not to mention all of his other work, which is mostly working really hard all over the ground to provide an exit point, OR a starting point for broken chains of plays, or when our gameplan is stagnant and players don't know what to do.

You say that he gets a lot of his disposal in the back half. That is by design. He won a brownlow medal doing that.

the problem I have with typing this stuff out is you're clearly biased against him (as i am biased towards him), so please ensure any further discussion won't be held in bad faith because I've spent energy trying to explain how something works and it is incredibly infuriating if all that will come back is 'yeah but it doesn't work' or 'he should be doing it better' or some other dumb sh*t that contributes nothing. I'm certain this has already been explained to you but you repeat it as a leading question instead of trying to generate valid discussion

absolutely he could be more damaging, that's always been a valid criticism of him, but that's not how he plays. He has his strengths as a player but a long, penetrating left foot, bursting through packs and kicking goals on the run are not part of them. He makes the most of what he's good at: his physical attributes, his elite workrate, typically good decision-making and understanding of the game. He's never going to be that game-breaking Danger, Fyfe etc. mid. He doesn't need to be, we just need to surround him with players like that which better utilise his strengths.

I feel like pinpointing him out of our side seems pretty off the mark when literally 15 other players have underperformed over the past 2 weeks
 

Jazzfan

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i wont type out fully what I think his role is but in short hes basically often playing back of the ball as the link-up man in chains of possession off HB and out of the D50. He will cover the ground backwards to provide a release (kinda like a pressure valve) for contested ball inside the D50. In the mids he will swing the ball, quite often to the left, looking for a player running past (with our current gameplan its intended to be a HB) to run and carry. Alternatively, he will kick the ball I50 himself, but usually he defers to more penetrating kicks.

So he is usually the 2nd player in a chain of 3.

That's not to mention all of his other work, which is mostly working really hard all over the ground to provide an exit point, OR a starting point for broken chains of plays, or when our gameplan is stagnant and players don't know what to do.

You say that he gets a lot of his disposal in the back half. That is by design. He won a brownlow medal doing that.

the problem I have with typing this stuff out is you're clearly biased against him (as i am biased towards him), so please ensure any further discussion won't be held in bad faith because I've spent energy trying to explain how something works and it is incredibly infuriating if all that will come back is 'yeah but it doesn't work' or 'he should be doing it better' or some other dumb sh*t that contributes nothing. I'm certain this has already been explained to you but you repeat it as a leading question instead of trying to generate valid discussion

absolutely he could be more damaging, that's always been a valid criticism of him, but that's not how he plays. He has his strengths as a player but a long, penetrating left foot, bursting through packs and kicking goals on the run are not part of them. He makes the most of what he's good at: his physical attributes, his elite workrate, typically good decision-making and understanding of the game. He's never going to be that game-breaking Danger, Fyfe etc. mid. He doesn't need to be, we just need to surround him with players like that which better utilise his strengths.

I feel like pinpointing him out of our side seems pretty off the mark when literally 15 other players have underperformed over the past 2 weeks
This is fantastic insight. And really valid. But it also highlights some issues for both the club and Mitchell moving forward.

Given Mitchell will be 28 this month, and given our timeline, I don't think we should look at Mitchell in the lens of building around him anymore. We are going to need him to find a way to contribute that isn't always in the midfield and touching the ball 40 times in a quarter-back role.

We are going to want to see Worpel remain in the midfield, and take on more responsibility in our game plan, we would probably benefit from Impey getting more time there, and I noticed Scrimshaw spent time there last game. Can he do a Mundy and move from a laconic half-back? We will also hopefully have one of the best mids in this years draft.

I really feel moving forward, next year, we only want to see one of Mitchell or O'Meara take big minutes in our midfield. And honestly, O'Meara is the leader we need through this rebuild.
 
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Stottzy

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i wont type out fully what I think his role is but in short hes basically often playing back of the ball as the link-up man in chains of possession off HB and out of the D50. He will cover the ground backwards to provide a release (kinda like a pressure valve) for contested ball inside the D50. In the mids he will swing the ball, quite often to the left, looking for a player running past (with our current gameplan its intended to be a HB) to run and carry. Alternatively, he will kick the ball I50 himself, but usually he defers to more penetrating kicks.

So he is usually the 2nd player in a chain of 3.

That's not to mention all of his other work, which is mostly working really hard all over the ground to provide an exit point, OR a starting point for broken chains of plays, or when our gameplan is stagnant and players don't know what to do.

You say that he gets a lot of his disposal in the back half. That is by design. He won a brownlow medal doing that.

the problem I have with typing this stuff out is you're clearly biased against him (as i am biased towards him), so please ensure any further discussion won't be held in bad faith because I've spent energy trying to explain how something works and it is incredibly infuriating if all that will come back is 'yeah but it doesn't work' or 'he should be doing it better' or some other dumb sh*t that contributes nothing. I'm certain this has already been explained to you but you repeat it as a leading question instead of trying to generate valid discussion

absolutely he could be more damaging, that's always been a valid criticism of him, but that's not how he plays. He has his strengths as a player but a long, penetrating left foot, bursting through packs and kicking goals on the run are not part of them. He makes the most of what he's good at: his physical attributes, his elite workrate, typically good decision-making and understanding of the game. He's never going to be that game-breaking Danger, Fyfe etc. mid. He doesn't need to be, we just need to surround him with players like that which better utilise his strengths.

I feel like pinpointing him out of our side seems pretty off the mark when literally 15 other players have underperformed over the past 2 weeks
See there is the problem for me and why I believe a reason why we are over possessing the ball.

He is the release valve and the 2nd in a chain of 3. There shouldn't be a 3rd half the time.

He looks to the left instead of kicking it himself because there are better kicks. Again it creates over possession and slows down play. He should be kicking it forward and attacking.

I'm not trying to be biased against him, just highlighting my frustration. You say he won a brownlow in this role, where I disagree. He was a lot more attacking and forward plus his disposal by foot had improved heaps in 2018. He was averaging 5 more kicks and 4 less handballs a game that year, compared to what he is averaging this year. He even kicked 13 goals!

Not trying to shutdown your argument, and appreciate the length you've gone to with explaining his role, but his role is creating over possession and stagnates any attack.

Anyway enjoyed the discussion. I hope he proves me wrong.
 
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The hands of stone

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fu** that was something that hadn't crossed my mind yet, will be a kick in the guts if we finish 17th and end up with Pick 4.
No way the AFL is giving them a priority pick.
Lets be honest , its preferable for the AFL that North struggle so they can force them to relocate.
They wont be helping them out.
 

Rev08

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It’s very possible we are putting Mitchell in the shop window. No point playing him across half forward, watch him rack up low 20s and watch his value plummet.

Might as well play him on ball, let him get his 40 and hopefully nab a first rounder from an up and comer like Carlton.
 

darthmann

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See there is the problem for me and why I believe a reason why we are over possessing the ball.

He is the release valve and the 2nd in a chain of 3. There shouldn't be a 3rd half the time.

He looks to the left instead of kicking it himself because there a better kicks. Again it creates over possession and slows down play. He should be kicking it forward and attacking.

I'm not trying to be biased against him, just highlighting my frustration. You say he won a brownlow in this role, where I disagree. He was a lot more attacking and forward plus his disposal by foot had improved heaps in 2018. He was averaging 5 more kicks and 4 less handballs a game that year, compared to what he is averaging this year. He even kicked 13 goals!

Not trying to shutdown your argument, and appreciate the length you've gone to with explaining his role, but his role is creating over possession and stagnates any attack.

Anyway enjoyed the discussion. I hope he proves me wrong.
oh don't get me wrong he was better in 2018, but he was close to the best player in the comp then too. Hhe still won the weight of his ball starting off the backline. It was a bit better distributed across the ground that year though

what you're describing is a problem with the gameplan, or his role in the side, and not with tom Mitchell himself. I think that with a better-balanced list, particularly good outside mids, we will see him return close to 2018 form in terms of impact. Losing Isaac was the big one
 

Tuck In

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Enjoyed your outlining on this. Reading it makes me think that Tom's role is very much like Didier Deschamps' role for France when they won the World Cup ("The Water Carrier") or a super domestique in the Grand Tours.
It's a very defined role and as such it requires the skill and timing in others to ensure it is fully effective. When other parts don't quite work, this role is the one that often gets criticism as it is so involved and important.
Not saying it can't be improved or developed just that it allows a system to work but it also needs the system to work to see it at it's most positive.
 

Brishawk

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Well if it's a clear role change, it's doing nothing for us.
He is playing the link between the inside and the outside. He is leading the club in score involvements. He is 38th in the league in that stat and is in the ball park of players like Bailey smith and Shia Bolton, both of whom play in significantly better sides than our that are better at finishing off the work of their inside players. If the people on the outside can’t hit a target, then how is it Mitchell’s fault?
 

Stottzy

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He is playing the link between the inside and the outside. He is leading the club in score involvements. He is 38th in the league in that stat and is in the ball park of players like Bailey smith and Shia Bolton, both of whom play in significantly better sides than our that are better at finishing off the work of their inside players. If the people on the outside can’t hit a target, then how is it Mitchell’s fault?
Smith and Bolten average 12-14 touches less. Anyway as I explained before to someone else, he should be more attacking like he was in 2018. His role highlights the teams problem, which is over possessing the ball.
 

Jazzfan

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Great discussions around Mitchells role. The positives and the limitations.

But man, it just reminds me how ******* good Sam Mitchell was in that quarter back role. He just cut teams apart by hand and foot. He'd have torched it with the stand rules.
 
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MJA33

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Great discussions around Mitchells role. The positives and the limitations.

But man, it just reminds me how ******* good Sam Mitchell was in that quarter back role. He just cut teams apart by hand and foot. He'd have torched it with the stand rules.
I was thinking about this the other day. His method of just standing 1-2 meters away from man on the mark and then quickly making decision to take the kick on either foot to create play was key to our ball movement. Imagine that now with the new rules.
The other player I think will really benefit from this is Sicily, can’t wait to have him back next year as he can do similar. Quickly pick a option and drill it by foot creating and opening up play up the field. It’s underrated how much we miss him.
 

darthmann

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Smith and Bolten average 12-14 touches less. Anyway as I explained before to someone else, he should be more attacking like he was in 2018. His role highlights the teams problem, which is over possessing the ball.
i imagine that WB and Richmond probably avg close to 12-14 more scoring shots a game than us a though

he's not as good as he was in 18, but we were also a top 4 side then. we are currently a bottom 2 side. it's a lot easier to be attacking in a good side than a bad one, especially when you play his role

the team's problem is turnovers at critical points while possessing the ball. The 3 teams that avg more disposals than us are the Dogs, Power and Cats, with the Demons directly below us in 5th — the top 4. It's not a direct problem with our possession count, it's a). constant mistakes and bad decision making/ball use,
b). an inability to run from HB to HF, c). our fwds completely disconnect with our backline/wings, d). our fwds inability to lead properly, and e). getting smashed in the clearances

but let's just ignore all of that and look at this one stat which encapsulates all of our issues:

we are first in the comp for rebound 50s
we are last in the comp for inside 50s

so the problem very clearly occurs between the 50s. looking at that, when your job is to create for other players, it's incredibly hard to be super-effective when the players you're creating for are at sea with the next in the chain (the fwds).

so I guess you think that titch should bomb it long instead of stringing together a few possessions to get a run started? that might be a valid option if we had Buddy, Rough, etc. in our fwd line. fu**, even Tim O'Brien. As it stands, we have a bunch of fwds who are so green that they struggle to make contests, rarely make repeat efforts to prevent the ball from going back the other way, have terrible leading patterns and constantly get out-marked or out-worked by their direct opponent. we have a bunch of wings who provide little to no run and carry. we have a bunch of defenders who are great offensively and yet liabilities defensively. and of course, we have a good top-line of mids, but absolutely no depth which causes us to get belted around the ball when any of them need a rest/are moved around the ground. Our pressure is a joke for an AC-coached side.

so yeah, there's a lot of things to fix that's a mix of issues with our gameplan, our personnel and our ability to execute fundamental football skills (this to me is mental) before we start flaying Tom Mitchell.
 

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Davo-27

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i imagine that WB and Richmond probably avg close to 12-14 more scoring shots a game than us a though

he's not as good as he was in 18, but we were also a top 4 side then. we are currently a bottom 2 side. it's a lot easier to be attacking in a good side than a bad one, especially when you play his role

the team's problem is turnovers at critical points while possessing the ball. The 3 teams that avg more disposals than us are the Dogs, Power and Cats, with the Demons directly below us in 5th — the top 4. It's not a direct problem with our possession count, it's a). constant mistakes and bad decision making/ball use,
b). an inability to run from HB to HF, c). our fwds completely disconnect with our backline/wings, d). our fwds inability to lead properly, and e). getting smashed in the clearances

but let's just ignore all of that and look at this one stat which encapsulates all of our issues:

we are first in the comp for rebound 50s
we are last in the comp for inside 50s

so the problem very clearly occurs between the 50s. looking at that, when your job is to create for other players, it's incredibly hard to be super-effective when the players you're creating for are at sea with the next in the chain (the fwds).

so I guess you think that titch should bomb it long instead of stringing together a few possessions to get a run started? that might be a valid option if we had Buddy, Rough, etc. in our fwd line. fu**, even Tim O'Brien. As it stands, we have a bunch of fwds who are so green that they struggle to make contests, rarely make repeat efforts to prevent the ball from going back the other way, have terrible leading patterns and constantly get out-marked or out-worked by their direct opponent. we have a bunch of wings who provide little to no run and carry. we have a bunch of defenders who are great offensively and yet liabilities defensively. and of course, we have a good top-line of mids, but absolutely no depth which causes us to get belted around the ball when any of them need a rest/are moved around the ground. Our pressure is a joke for an AC-coached side.

so yeah, there's a lot of things to fix that's a mix of issues with our gameplan, our personnel and our ability to execute fundamental football skills (this to me is mental) before we start flaying Tom Mitchell.
let me get this straight, you're blaming the forwards for the lack of i50 entries? i think you've missed the point entirely, the situation is, we have a quality defence which equates to plenty of rebounds( a lot of people want to blame defenders when we lose, but you try dealing with a midfield that at times is uncompetitive and try stemming the flow), we have a midfield that loses nearly every week, i would say its the worst in the comp or close to, a developing and competitive forward line that is not being fed any delivery atm, blaming a forward for the ball barely getting into his vicinity is ludicrous imo.

i think the last 2 weeks having 3 talls and a lack of forward pressure has hurt, which is why i think Brockman for Jeka is the smartest decision we can make, Jeka obviously needs more time to develop, but it was nice to see him get some experience and motivation at this stage, Tim O'brien barely helps anything, not only does he not mark, but majority of his contests or even poss become turn overs, he gets out bodied nearly every time and is barely impactful on the scoreboard, he is fringe at best imo.

Tom Mitchell isnt solely responsible for our midfields issues, i think Liam Shiels is also somewhat a problem, i think the fact our mids are all very similar is an issue and also the depth and lack of competition for spots in our midfield is also a problem, either way our midfield and fixing it needs to be our priority moving forward, seeing as i believe this year we have fixed our forward issues with the emergence of some serious talent coming in.

it is true guys like CJ, Scrimshaw and Impey are a little bit of a liability defensively, but they give us so much drive from a defence that is under a tonne of pressure in almost every game.
 
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darthmann

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let me get this straight, you're blaming the forwards for the lack of i50 entries? i think you've missed the point entirely, the situation is, we have a quality defence which equates to plenty of rebounds( a lot of people want to blame defenders when we lose, but you try dealing with a midfield that at times is uncompetitive and try stemming the flow), we have a midfield that loses nearly every week, i would say its the worst in the comp or close to, a developing and competitive forward line that is not being fed any delivery atm, blaming a forward for the ball barely getting into his vicinity is ludicrous imo.

i think the last 2 weeks having 3 talls and a lack of forward pressure has hurt, which is why i think Brockman for Jeka is the smartest decision we can make, Jeka obviously needs more time to develop, but it was nice to see him get some experience and motivation at this stage, Tim O'brien barely helps anything, not only does he not mark, but majority of his contests or even poss become turn overs, he gets out bodied nearly every time and is barely impactful on the scoreboard, he is fringe at best imo.

Tom Mitchell isnt solely responsible for our midfields issues, i think Liam Shiels is also somewhat a problem, i think the fact our mids are all very similar is an issue and also the depth and lack of competition for spots in our midfield is also a problem, either way our midfield and fixing it needs to be our priority moving forward.

it is true guys like CJ, Scrimshaw and Impey are a little bit of a liability defensively, but they give us so much drive from a defence that is under a tonne of pressure in almost every game.
forwards are used as part of the chain from getting coast to coast

whether you think its ridiculous or not, it's the way we play. they are usually leading up to the wing or atleast HF. watch back the WCE game and look at who we are kicking it to when we go long down the Line or can't get overlap going. it's Lewis and Kosi, occasionally Jeka

I'M not blaming anyone. it's like u took one part of my post and got mad because our fwds are all young and need defending. I highlighted literally all the other issues u did too. Our problem is not with one thing. its an overarching issue that affects every line on the ground

how u possibly think I'm blaming forwards for lack of I50s is ridiculous. I'm suggesting the connection between our HBs, our fwds and our outside mids is the issue for our i50 struggles. That is just ONE of many problems we have
 

Davo-27

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forwards are used as part of the chain from getting coast to coast

whether you think its ridiculous or not, it's the way we play. they are usually leading up to the wing or atleast HF. watch back the WCE game and look at who we are kicking it to when we go long down the Line or can't get overlap going. it's Lewis and Kosi, occasionally Jeka

I'M not blaming anyone. it's like u took one part of my post and got mad because our fwds are all young and need defending. I highlighted literally all the other issues u did too. Our problem is not with one thing. its an overarching issue that affects every line on the ground

how u possibly think I'm blaming forwards for lack of I50s is ridiculous. I'm suggesting the connection between our HBs, our fwds and our outside mids is the issue for our i50 struggles. That is just ONE of many problems we have
i agree with most of your post, there are a lot of issues and i think most of those issues could be solved by a midfield/wings with depth, variety and decent disposal who can win their fair share of battles against opponent midfields. (turnovers, clearances, disposal eff%, i50's, creativity, run and carry, hell even a forwards leading patterns can be helped by smooth transition through the midfield)
 

darthmann

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i agree with most of your post, there are a lot of issues and i think most of those issues could be solved by a midfield with depth, variety and decent disposal who can win their fair share of battles against opponent midfields. (turnovers, clearances, disposal eff%, i50's, creativity, hell even a forwards leading patterns can be helped by smooth transition through the midfield)
yes I think our midfield is a much bigger problem than our fwd line going forward because things like leading patterns, learning to execute the game plan properly etc. can all be learned and the group is extremely young. Same with CJ and Scrim's defensive issues.

But they're just the realities of playing a side with no cohesion, learning a game plan, that has garbage depth and heaps of young guys in the 22 that might not contribute

However our mids are not and we have the worst depth in the comp. Our balance can be fixed, but we need 2+ outside mids that provide a Pod. That's why I want Downie picked even if he doesn't technically deserve it. A midfield of Tom, JOM, Worpel and Chad can work, we just desperately need some speed, class and good ball use I50 with it. So like two Brad Hills that can actually be ran through the middle and play a contested game
 

On Topic

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Regardless of where we all think we can improve, the reality is we are down some really key players (Gunston, Burgoyne, Day, Sicily and O’Meara). That’s a bad injury list for key players and has exposed our depth.

This is a good opportunity to get back on the winners list this week and hopefully get some spark in the side. I’d like to see a win where we don’t have to come back from like 30+ points down.
 

Brishawk

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Smith and Bolten average 12-14 touches less. Anyway as I explained before to someone else, he should be more attacking like he was in 2018. His role highlights the teams problem, which is over possessing the ball.
He always acted to release others. That is his strength and his score involvements will sky rocket if the people he gives the ball to use it better (or the people down the line can score better). Nothing Mitchell can do will change his ‘impact’ when the team is this bad. Stop living in denial and trying to out our performance on one player’s shoulders.
 

Strapping Young Lad

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Regardless of where we all think we can improve, the reality is we are down some really key players (Gunston, Burgoyne, Day, Sicily and O’Meara). That’s a bad injury list for key players and has exposed our depth.

This is a good opportunity to get back on the winners list this week and hopefully get some spark in the side. I’d like to see a win where we don’t have to come back from like 30+ points down.
We should win. Should.

Won’t be surprised if we don’t, and as we’re really just playing out the season for pride and draft picks, there’s at least a silver lining if we fail.
 

Brishawk

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let me get this straight, you're blaming the forwards for the lack of i50 entries? i think you've missed the point entirely, the situation is, we have a quality defence which equates to plenty of rebounds( a lot of people want to blame defenders when we lose, but you try dealing with a midfield that at times is uncompetitive and try stemming the flow), we have a midfield that loses nearly every week, i would say its the worst in the comp or close to, a developing and competitive forward line that is not being fed any delivery atm, blaming a forward for the ball barely getting into his vicinity is ludicrous imo.

i think the last 2 weeks having 3 talls and a lack of forward pressure has hurt, which is why i think Brockman for Jeka is the smartest decision we can make, Jeka obviously needs more time to develop, but it was nice to see him get some experience and motivation at this stage, Tim O'brien barely helps anything, not only does he not mark, but majority of his contests or even poss become turn overs, he gets out bodied nearly every time and is barely impactful on the scoreboard, he is fringe at best imo.

Tom Mitchell isnt solely responsible for our midfields issues, i think Liam Shiels is also somewhat a problem, i think the fact our mids are all very similar is an issue and also the depth and lack of competition for spots in our midfield is also a problem, either way our midfield and fixing it needs to be our priority moving forward, seeing as i believe this year we have fixed our forward issues with the emergence of some serious talent coming in.

it is true guys like CJ, Scrimshaw and Impey are a little bit of a liability defensively, but they give us so much drive from a defence that is under a tonne of pressure in almost every game.
Most of our plays out of defence break down because of our forwards. They don’t know where they should be and concede dangerous positions to their opponents. They make it bloody hard to kick to them. Badly missing Gunston.
 

VandoHawk

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Most of our plays out of defence break down because of our forwards. They don’t know where they should be and concede dangerous positions to their opponents. They make it bloody hard to kick to them. Badly missing Gunston.
And when our forwards are in the right position our current group don’t have the skills to cleanly execute. No easy fix for either issue. Might take a year or two for our young group of forwards to properly click, might take a draft or three to get the right midfield mix.
 

Brishawk

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And when our forwards are in the right position our current group don’t have the skills to cleanly execute. No easy fix for either issue. Might take a year or two for our young group of forwards to properly click, might take a draft or three to get the right midfield mix.
Yeah time will fix a lot of our problems. Or we will find better players. Patience is required. It is going to be hard to watch for a couple of years.
 
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