Autopsy Round 9, 2024: Hawthorn v St.Kilda

[Brian Oblivion]

Not really surprised either, but he couldn't even get on the field much early on with injury and Covid. Must have been a good predictor because after 3 years his stats would have looked pretty similar to most KPBs. From memory we kept Irish over him because he was contracted and then pissed him off too.

He cost a second round pick and as a 2 meter tall skinny defender that was never coming on quickly it was a weird list management call.

Players very rarely get a second chance and if you weren't even established before getting the chop it's even less likely.

If we cull Keeler at the end of the year we won't know what we had because talls take time.

Agree about Keeler - re-signing him asap should be a priority imo. He's shown he's got something not a lot
of other players his size have - can mark, good groundball work, can dance around oppo players like a 180cm
mid, can kick, can ruck. Defensively he's not great so that's why he's playing down back. I see great potential.
If you wanted a 19yo Paddy Ryder prototype of player - he is actually it which is why I was pissed the club didn't keep Paddy around in a coaching/mentoring role as he'd be ideal to work w/Keeler.

 

[gringo2011]

Agree about Keeler - re-signing him asap should be a priority imo. He's shown he's got something not a lot
of other players his size have - can mark, good roundball work, can dance around oppo players like a 180cm
mid, can kick, can ruck. Defensively he's not great so that's why he's playing down back. I see great potential.

On Clavarino, I remember early on going to open training and Lewis Pierce was in the forward line up against Clavarino. Pierce came in as Clav went up to take a grab and shoved him in his side, Clavarino came down on an ankle and it made a hell of a noise, thought he'd snapped his leg. Wrote off a lot of his first season.

 

[CaptainRisky]

On Clavarino, I remember early on going to open training and Lewis Pierce was in the forward line up against Clavarino. Pierce came in as Clav went up to take a grab and shoved him in his side, Clavarino came down on an ankle and it made a hell of a noise, thought he'd snapped his leg. Wrote off a lot of his first season.

He missed 8 weeks from what i read .
I was on his wagon with the Doc when we got him because of all the usual write ups that he is a gun bla bla bla , Weitering MKII , In saying that some were saying first round and some saying he wouldn't get drafted
But just like Ronny he never really improved , now that is a name from the past Pierce

 

[gringo2011]

He missed 8 weeks from what i read .
I was on his wagon with the Doc when we got him because of all the usual write ups that he is a gun bla bla bla , Weitering MKII , In saying that some were saying first round and some saying he wouldn't get drafted
But just like Ronny he never really improved , now that is a name from the past Pierce

He did improve and so did Ronnie. Ronnie maybe never enough to make a best 22 player but to suggest he's not progressed is a bit rough. Clavarino had one good senior game I remember, then we ditched him. 3 years on a list for a guy that was drafted too skinny to play immediately seemed weird management. Key positions and rucks aren't short term propositions.

 

[CursingFijian]

How good was Hugo's tackle on big Lloyd Meek?

Also, that moment where he ran in to the space behind a leading Max King

12

Max King

Age

23

Ht

202cm

Wt

100kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.3

2star

K

4.7

2star

HB

2.6

2star

M

2.7

3star

T

0.7

3star

G

1.4

5star

D

7.3

2star

K

4.7

2star

HB

2.6

2star

M

2.7

3star

T

0.7

1star

G

1.4

5star

D

8.0

2star

K

5.2

2star

HB

2.8

3star

M

2.8

3star

T

0.6

3star

G

1.4

5star

and Sinclair picked him out!

 

[PJays]

Judging him very harshly if thats the case.

Hill has been fair more consistent than almost everyone you've listed while still having best on ground performances they've all had.

Sinclair missed the opener, quieter first game but has improved since.

NWM was best on ground in our best game. Has had quieter ones too.

But the voting is based on every player getting votes in every game. So based on that methodology, you're probably right, Hill would probably be top 3 or 4 to date.

Still, if he's our highest paid player, he should be. I just hope we don't overpay his next deal as a result!

 

[CaptainRisky]

He did improve and so did Ronnie. Ronnie maybe never enough to make a best 22 player but to suggest he's not progressed is a bit rough. Clavarino had one good senior game I remember, then we ditched him. 3 years on a list for a guy that was drafted too skinny to play immediately seemed weird management. Key positions and rucks aren't short term propositions.

Byrnes was averaging more disposals back in 2021 than he is now , not sure that equates to improved

 

[The Punter]

Byrnes was averaging more disposals back in 2021 than he is now , not sure that equates to improved

15.44 versus 15.38... clear difference.

"He's averaging about the same disposals as three years ago - not sure that is improvement" would have been less of a rhetorical reach.

 

[CaptainRisky]

15.44 versus 15.38... clear difference.

"He's averaging about the same disposals as three years ago - not sure that is improvement" would have been less of a rhetorical reach.

He was kicking more goals , getting more clearance ect than he is now.

 

[g_TRAIN]

2) Marshall is not a tap ruckman and continually grabs the ball and kicks it forward indiscriminately to no-one. His role should be to either tap it to advantage or handball and then shepherd or block his mids. He is taking the midfields out of play at stoppages. Our mids are having to play negatively and have become defensive and reactive at stoppages and this disadvantages their quick movement and creactivity. Also the forwards have no idea where Marshall will kick the ball and our forwards have also become reactive and then having to defend.

This is frustrating, but is it really Marshall's fault or is it the fault of whoever is forward of the ball trying to receive the kick? Because he's not the only ruckman in the AFL doing this.

In theory, he should be kicking to a 50/50 contest most of the time, especially out of the center bounce where it's 6 v 6 v 6.

It might not be as good as a tap to the advantage of a streaming midfielder who can pick and choose a target, but tap-outs themselves are a 50/50 bet which he may lose.

Even if he does win the tap, it's an even smaller chance that it's going to be a tap to advantage, and an even smaller chance he finds a skilled enough midfielder who can find a target.

If he is able to clear it from a contest and get it forward, we should be able to compete and mark the ball or bring it to the ground. The fact that we're St Kilda and our opponents always out-position us is the main problem.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

On Clavarino, I remember early on going to open training and Lewis Pierce was in the forward line up against Clavarino. Pierce came in as Clav went up to take a grab and shoved him in his side, Clavarino came down on an ankle and it made a hell of a noise, thought he'd snapped his leg. Wrote off a lot of his first season.

Retrospectively.

2017 AFL Draft Profile: Oscar Clavarino

Find out everything you need to know about this year's draft prospects before they get drafted.

www.zerohanger.com

He was certainly a player on the radar.

He's been playing for South Adelaide, 5th in their B&F.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

He was kicking more goals , getting more clearance ect than he is now.

He was better last year.
Like a lot of players he's gone backwards this year.

We've been saying 2nd year blues for the young players, maybe its 2nd year blues for RL and his game plan.

 

[stfan]

This is frustrating but is it really Marshall's fault or is it the fault of whoever is forward of the ball trying to receive the kick?

In theory he should be kicking to a 50:50 contest especially out of the centre bounce where it's 6:6:6

It might not be as good as a tap to the advantage of a streaming mid who can skillfully pick and choose a target but tap outs themselves are a 50:50 bet which he may lose.

Even if he does win the hitout it's an even smaller chance that it's going to be a hitout to advantage and an even smaller chance he finds a skilled mid who can steady and find a target.

If he or anyone is able to clear it from a contest and get it forward we should be able to compete and mark or bring it to ground. It's the fact we're St Kilda and our opponents always put position us that's the problem.

On Marshall,

We know how he kicks the ball out from his clearances.

Our opposition knows....


But somehow our forwards do not know.....




Seriously, even ignoring how Marshall clears the ball our forwards should all be on the move when the ball is bounced and in front of their opponent ready for any clearance should we get the ball. But yet...

 

[SaintsSeptember]

On Marshall,

We know how he kicks the ball out from his clearances.

Our opposition knows....


But somehow our forwards do not know.....




Seriously, even ignoring how Marshall clears the ball our forwards should all be on the move when the ball is bounced and in front of their opponent ready for any clearance should we get the ball. But yet...

In the modern game a lot of them are being held.

 

[CaptainRisky]

He was better last year.
Like a lot of players he's gone backwards this year.

We've been saying 2nd year blues for the young players, maybe its 2nd year blues for RL and his game plan.

Yes he was but I think his best year was 2021, he building nicely but has gone stagnant since, is it him or the coach ?

 

[Desperate saint]

This is frustrating but is it really Marshall's fault or is it the fault of whoever is forward of the ball trying to receive the kick? Because he's not the only ruck in the AFL doing this.

In theory he should be kicking to a 50:50 contest especially out of the centre bounce where it's 6:6:6

It might not be as good as a tap to the advantage of a streaming mid who can skillfully pick and choose a target but tap outs themselves are a 50:50 bet which he may lose.

Even if he does win the hitout it's an even smaller chance that it's going to be a hitout to advantage and an even smaller chance he finds a skilled mid who can steady and find a target.

If he or anyone is able to clear it from a contest and get it forward we should be able to compete and mark or bring it to ground. It's the fact we're St Kilda and our opponents always out position us that's the problem.

Agree with this- Scrimshaw positioned himself perfectly when he saw what Marshall was doing-our players never worked it out was so frustrating

 

[StFly]

Wow, I was today years old when I learnt that. The story checks out.

From a Big Footy link (Fox Footy link broken):

"By Jon Ralph
November 18, 2009

The controversial blood injection therapy that helped Paul Chapman win this year's Norm Smith Medal has been banned by the World Anti-Doping Body Agency.
Chapman's troublesome hamstring was helped by a technique in which blood was drained from his body, "spun" to increase its oxygen content, then re-injected into the injured muscle.

The technique was not illegal this year and was seen as critical in allowing Chapman to play in September, when he kicked three goals as best afield in Geelong's grand final victory against St Kilda. "

There's AFL rule number 4 that was changed after potentially costing St Kilda a flag.

Or to be more precise, the 4th AFL rule that was crucial in key events that went against St Kilda, that were influential in St Kilda not winning a flag, where the AFL subsequently changed the rule.

And reason number 1,492 to be depressed as a Saints fan.

When I'm retired and St Kilda still hasn't won another flag for another 30 years, I'm going to spend a few months writing a book about the combination of incompetence and bad luck that's seen us become historic failures. This Paul Chapman blood thing will definitely get a mention!

They also shifted a timeslot for games to be played so it fell before the ruling took hold.
They also straight refuse to amend the record to account for Hawkins poster.
I also crapped on about this at the time and years later that the Cats bought that flag on dodgy bullshit and the AFL pandering for it.

To then run into the HGH Pies was like straw that broke, then 3 years later the Dons oopsied into injecting people and pissing off anyone with the prefix Dr.

The AFL had/has a problem, and it has cost many teams many things over the decades just because they don't give a shit.

 

[spike101]

Gives a fk this is all bs

Pls explain why it is bs, do you think sexual harassment is ok?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Yes he was but I think his best year was 2021, he building nicely but has gone stagnant since, is it him or the coach ?

If a player goes backwards its the player.
What is it if all the players go backwards?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Pls explain why it is bs, do you think sexual harassment is ok?

If it took place , take it up through the proper channels.

Otherwise piss off.

 

[Big 0]

Intuitively dislike the Marshall clearance kick but coaches haven’t put a stop to it and really what would I know

 

[gringo2011]

Intuitively dislike the Marshall clearance kick but coaches haven’t put a stop to it and really what would I know

Plenty of midfielders clear congestion with a dump kick and then try to lock the ball in. More a problem that he's the only one that regularly wins his own ball.

 

[g_TRAIN]

Intuitively dislike the Marshall clearance kick but coaches haven’t put a stop to it and really what would I know

I feel like we dislike them because the end result is often a turn over. If the end result was a mark or even another stoppage we would like them.

Its a 50/50 kick but its a kick in our direction which is a result we should be taking. The main issue is we're getting out positioned and beaten in the resulting contest down the ground.

 

[Big 0]

I feel like we dislike them because the end result is often a turn over. If the end result was a mark or even another stoppage we would like them.

Its a 50/50 kick but its a kick in our direction which is a result we should be taking. The main issue is we're getting out positioned and beaten in the resulting contest down the ground.

While I definitely agree, the problem is that any good midfield shouldn’t have to rely on a 50/50 dump kick forward from stoppage as their modus operandi. Because Marshall is quite a poor tap ruckman it means our mids are automatically reactive at stoppage; obviously that goes both ways but I’d contend that the midfield as a whole is hindered by the type of ruckman he is, even if he is our best player at the moment. Bit of a conundrum

 

[g_TRAIN]

While I definitely agree, the problem is that any good midfield shouldn’t have to rely on a 50/50 dump kick forward from stoppage as their modus operandi. Because Marshall is quite a poor tap ruckman it means our mids are automatically reactive at stoppage; obviously that goes both ways but I’d contend that the midfield as a whole is hindered by the type of ruckman he is, even if he is our best player at the moment. Bit of a conundrum

I see your point of view.

But I also think you work with what you have and work to your strengths.

Richmond won a flag with Sean Grigg as their ruck.

Ro isn't great with the hit outs but elite in other areas and with a strong bunch of mid's around him could still form an elite combination