Autopsy Round 9 = Fremantle 61-49 Collingwood

[AndrewShawble]

If this wasn't a team I was passionate about this regression would be a fascinating case study; alas this slow-motion train wreck is not fun viewing at all.

Its strange, we hardly move the ball into an open forward line anymore
Almost a wall of defenders as they aren’t scared of a high ball coming in vs us

 

[Leviathan Pie]

LP - Rich and GWS looked bad through 2019 just like us.
So to talk about 2018 being an outlier for us because we also had bad games in 2019 is incorrect.
They don't give away Top 4 or PF spots.

After the PF people were correctly saying its was a lost opportunity because they were confident we would have done well in a GF against Rich.
So glaring issues with the list, let alone talk of rebuilds.

Now the "down hill skier" supporters here ( not you ) want Buckley sacked, the list rebuilt - no perspective,
Particularly with the massive dislocation COVID has brought.

2018 is an outlier if you include the previous 6-7 seasons. But I understand your point.

The GWS & Richmond examples have merit, but are also different. Both sides had the cattle, and star power (specifically KPF's) to go big when needed. I'm not sure we have that currently. And the problem with that is these issues that were identified as gaps last year are now getting bigger. Pendlebury at 32 is still our best & most important player. Which is highly concerning.

There is no point sticking the head in the sand and saying everything is fine, as its not. We just need to see these problems addressed at some point over the coming off-season. Teams are very quickly going past us as we speak. Critical time of action over the next 6 months.

 

[Leviathan Pie]

mark it down - at their best WC thump Tigers -
Tigers are small with 9 player less than 180 cm on their list, and WC only 3.
They will get smashed around the contest, and WC can match them for pace.

So I don't see a single area where Rich has superiority.

I believe at this stage the Eagles won't get a home final, which essentially curtails their advantage.

Tigers will grit it out and have their measure in September.

 

[AndrewShawble]

mark it down - at their best WC thump Tigers -
Tigers are small with 9 player less than 180 cm on their list, and WC only 3.
They will get smashed around the contest, and WC can match them for pace.

So I don't see a single area where Rich has superiority.

Richmond play a team game that is hard to put your finger on. They are beatable, but not as much as everyone things.

They have the eagles a hot start last year and reeled them in. Don’t get me wrong, with NN and Kelly I think the Eagles win if they played tomorrow, but count Richmond out against them at your peril.

 

[Chrispiesssss]

Nope. At the game he was the ONLY midfielder we had that stood up. Hard as nails, generally positive with the ball.

7 turnovers out of 15.

 

[brockbruiser]

I think Freo played really well yesterday. It seems we are bringing a lot of teams into form at the moment.

 

[No SPIN]

We got lucky finishing top 4 last year, some dream results went our way.

Richmond would have dismantled us on GF day, we dodged a bullet. We can’t give them too much credit, they had a top 5 KPF arrive at the club for no cost outside of salary.

A team that's TOP 4 from week 5 to week 18 in a season, is NOT lucky to make TOP 4.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

7 turnovers out of 15.

Genuinely surprising stat because at the ground he was putting the ball in dangerous spots.

 

[sr36]

mark it down - at their best WC thump Tigers -
Tigers are small with 9 player less than 180 cm on their list, and WC only 3.
They will get smashed around the contest, and WC can match them for pace.

So I don't see a single area where Rich has superiority.

When the Tigers click I'm not convinced that any team hS worked out how to stop their run.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

A team that's TOP 4 from week 5 to week 18 in a season, is NOT lucky to make TOP 4.

Signs were there though last season that we had * all depth (maybe wasting picks left right and centre on Murray, Aish, Beams et al might have something to do with it...) and it’s continued to come to fruition this season. Not to diminish your point, I mostly agree but we were a very average top four side - as were Brisbane and Geelong truth be told.

 

[loki04]

I feel like I need to go and watch the Geelong game again to reassure myself that we're not as bad as everyone is making us out to be.

Everything is so magnified after a loss.

Why not watch any of the other losses and draw to confirm we are? after all we are 10th not 1st.

 

[sr36]

Signs were there though last season that we had fu** all depth (maybe wasting picks left right and centre on Murray, Aish, Beams et al might have something to do with it...) and it’s continued to come to fruition this season. Not to diminish your point, I mostly agree but we were a very average top four side - as were Brisbane and Geelong truth be told.

Yep. We didn't have a bad day against GWS who were missing their midfield. We played like that all season.

 

[loki04]

Signs were there though last season that we had fu** all depth (maybe wasting picks left right and centre on Murray, Aish, Beams et al might have something to do with it...) and it’s continued to come to fruition this season. Not to diminish your point, I mostly agree but we were a very average top four side - as were Brisbane and Geelong truth be told.

We largely played trash footy in 2019, writing was on the wall all season. Playing a quarter and half got us scraping over the line and sometimes losses much like this year. Only difference is we scraped through more wins.

 

[cleomenes]

The absence of Howe, Pendlebury and DeGoey were telling factors, but excuse nothing, as Fremantle were missing players just as crucial to them. To my eyes, the players went out thinking that the 4 points were theirs, and nothing in particular had to be done to get them. I lost track of the times our players got the ball in the midfield, then tried for a pack beating move that failed. In the same situation, Fremantle players mostly used their flash of time to dish off the ball to someone with a little room.
Fumbles and poor handballs were the order of the day. Stephenson in particular needs to do a lot of work on his handballs and Thomas is now an habitual fumbler.
Our forwards won't take the shots that come to them. In the defensive game that we operate, the small forwards in particular have to have a shot when they are in range and have a moment. Targets in better positions are too difficult to reach when there are 30 players inside 50. Opportunities are too few to waste them as we are doing. A bit of accuracy would help too.
Selection of Keene to play on Taberner was an error. A very tough intro.
Our midfield was again exposed as unable to cope with pressure. Even with Pendlebury, they don't do it very well. Without him they are rudderless. Treloar remains a good player, but can no longer explode away from congestion. Adams always puts in, Seir has a way to go.
Varcoe may have been instructed to shut out Matera, which he did, so his low numbers may reflect this.
Moore and Maynard were both very good, but Maynard may be reading too much of his publicity. Noble was very good. Crisp is not as sharp as he has been, but seems to have specific jobs, and to not be free to move in any position he is occupying.
Sidebottom as we know, struggles when closely monitored.
Grundy is a little off the boil, but is still playing very well. Cameron is a good second ruck, but a poor tall forward.
Elliott has made a good transition to midfielder.
Unless this debacle sparks a massive turnaround in attitude within the team, then this year is done. Next game is the last chance really. The players looked so dispirited from about halfway through the second quarter that it looks a long way back for them.

 

[stormskye]

LP - Rich and GWS looked bad through 2019 just like us.
So to talk about 2018 being an outlier for us because we also had bad games in 2019 is incorrect.
They don't give away Top 4 or PF spots.

After the PF people were correctly saying its was a lost opportunity because they were confident we would have done well in a GF against Rich.
So glaring issues with the list, let alone talk of rebuilds.

Now the "down hill skier" supporters here ( not you ) want Buckley sacked, the list rebuilt - no perspective,
Particularly with the massive dislocation COVID has brought.

don’t think criticism is down hill skier supporters. I’m not calling for Buckley’s head, but our game plan is horrid. There’s also nothing wrong with accepting that we are not a top 4/ premiership contender with our current list. Accepting this needs to happen to allow change so we don’t just plug holes.

we lack a KPF, let alone two.. with kelly And JDG maybe next year that may help But we still need to draft/find a genuine KPF. Our bottom 6 players are not up to it, and you are only as good as your bottom 6. Same players week in week out perform and the same passengers. Add to that pendles, sidey getting on, we need to accept and start making changes.

Richmond for example have 6 of their best out and have been playing amazing football... We literally just lost to Fremantles VFL side. Last week against eagles wasn’t an outlier, that was a premiership team playing a bottom 8-10 team in us.

we are a long way off it, hub aside. we need some high draft picks and serious review of the list. That’s not over reacting that’s just facts. we have 6-8 players in our 22 that wouldn’t get a game in the top 4 teams.

I honestly think we need to move on from Hine. We need a new football brain to recruit different types. Foot skills, speed and height for one...

eagles got kelly, rich got lynch, we sold the world for beams... that’s just salt in an already open wound

 

[AndrewShawble]

A team that's TOP 4 from week 5 to week 18 in a season, is NOT lucky to make TOP 4.

We finished the season with GCS, Adelaide, Melbourne, Essendon - (The bottom 2 sides, 8th & 11th)

Needed a Hawthorn team that didn’t play finals to go to WA and beat the Eagles - which they did - and we still only made it on %.

So I consider us lucky by virtue of results had to go our way for it to happen.

 

[Kappa]

I think Freo played really well yesterday. It seems we are bringing a lot of teams into form at the moment.

Its goddam easy to play well against us considering our shsmble of a forward line and poor skills

 

[No SPIN]

I believe at this stage the Eagles won't get a home final, which essentially curtails their advantage.

Tigers will grit it out and have their measure in September.

We'll just have to agree to disagree

2018 is an outlier if you include the previous 6-7 seasons. But I understand your point.

The GWS & Richmond examples have merit, but are also different. Both sides had the cattle, and star power (specifically KPF's) to go big when needed. I'm not sure we have that currently. And the problem with that is these issues that were identified as gaps last year are now getting bigger. Pendlebury at 32 is still our best & most important player. Which is highly concerning.

There is no point sticking the head in the sand and saying everything is fine, as its not. We just need to see these problems addressed at some point over the coming off-season. Teams are very quickly going past us as we speak. Critical time of action over the next 6 months.

I think we have ONE glaring problem which worries more than the minor list deficiencies, and that's ON FIELD leadership.
Leaders like Pendles and Howe would have ensured we didn't lose that game, particularly as we had 9 players with less than 50 games.

Our next tier of leaders is a concern in my view.

 

[loki04]

We'll just have to agree to disagree


I think we have ONE glaring problem which worries more than the minor list deficiencies, and that's ON FIELD leadership.
Leaders like Pendles and Howe would have ensured we didn't lose that game, particularly as we had 9 players with less than 50 games.

Our next tier of leaders is a concern in my view.

We got more problems then that mate.

List issues.
Game plan issues.
Soft underbelly issues.

All covered up by playing an ugly but restricting brand of footy, like watching that year the dogs flooded the entire time under Terry Wallace when he was trying to save his job (diff gameplan but similar effect make it a quagmire no risk footy uber defensive).

 

[No SPIN]

We finished the season with GCS, Adelaide, Melbourne, Essendon - (The bottom 2 sides, 8th & 11th)

Needed a Hawthorn team that didn’t play finals to go to WA and beat the Eagles - which they did - and we still only made it on %.

So I consider us lucky by virtue of results had to go our way for it to happen.

When you're TOP 4 for the majority of the season - you deserve a TOP 4 if you make it.
Its that simple - its not an outlier outcome.
The season is a weighing machine - for most of the season we were TOP 4.

RICH only had 7 weeks in the TOP 4, and won the GF.

TOP 4 spots are earned not given away.

 

[No SPIN]

We got more problems then that mate.

List issues.
Game plan issues.
Soft underbelly issues.

All covered up by playing an ugly but restricting brand of footy, like watching that year the dogs flooded the entire time under Terry Wallace when he was trying to save his job (diff gameplan but similar effect make it a quagmire no risk footy uber defensive).

I think our best is very good, and the issues are not dire, as so many here are suggesting with talk of rebuilds and sackings.

 

[sr36]

We got more problems then that mate.

List issues.
Game plan issues.
Soft underbelly issues.

All covered up by playing an ugly but restricting brand of footy, like watching that year the dogs flooded the entire time under Terry Wallace when he was trying to save his job (diff gameplan but similar effect make it a quagmire no risk footy uber defensive).

I think it's mainly game plan. Rather than covering up list issues or a soft underbelly, our game plan which squashes everyone in the field into one third of the ground exposes our list issues and means we need a dominant KPF and top shelf crumbers, which is the main list issue we have. Our mids and our forwards would be much more effective and wouldn't be as soft if we opened it up and gave them some space to do the prancing they do so well.

 

[AndrewShawble]

When you're TOP 4 for the majority of the season - you deserve a TOP 4 if you make it.
Its that simple - its not an outlier outcome.
The season is a weighing machine - for most of the season we were TOP 4.

RICH only had 7 weeks in the TOP 4, and won the GF.

TOP 4 spots are earned not given away.

Nobody said they are given away, I said we were lucky to finish top 4.

Every year it’s acknowledged that you need ‘luck’ to win the premiership - injury and other factors aligning. So why not top 4?

So if Richmond only had 7 weeks in the top 4, how does the weighing machine work then?

 

[No SPIN]

Nobody said they are given away, I said we were lucky to finish top 4.

Every year it’s acknowledged that you need ‘luck’ to win the premiership - injury and other factors aligning. So why not top 4?

So if Richmond only had 7 weeks in the top 4, how does the weighing machine work then?

It’s a weighing machine because ultimately over a 23 week period those finishing Top 4 deserved it, as the best teams based on W/L.
The more weeks in the Top 4 the less luck has to do with it.
If Rich had snuck in after spending 16 weeks outside the Top 4 then luck could well have been considered a factor.

But that was not the case with us.

 

[Leviathan Pie]

We'll just have to agree to disagree


I think we have ONE glaring problem which worries more than the minor list deficiencies, and that's ON FIELD leadership.
Leaders like Pendles and Howe would have ensured we didn't lose that game, particularly as we had 9 players with less than 50 games.

Our next tier of leaders is a concern in my view.

Think we have a number of glaring problems, Leadership being one no doubt.