Autopsy Round 9: Hawks beat up on the Blues

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savagelunchbox

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To be fair, we don't play many games on narrow field and we aim to have the best game plan to win the grand final, which is usually played on a wide field. No doubt there was more going wrong than simply the field size though.
The thin ground excuse doesn't work when you choose to not use the center square.
 

rogiebear93

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May 17, 2017
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The thin ground excuse doesn't work when you choose to not use the center square.
The thinner grounds mean that our set up is far more collapsed into itself than it would be on the MCG or Optus Stadium. This means that it's harder for us to find space in congestion as we don't use the corridor with pace like other teams, but with ball use. It's easier for other teams to occupy space and cut the ball off.

Our use is better on larger grounds but we don't have the kicks in our midfield to slice teams up on smaller grounds anymore.

It's not ideal to play so poorly on one type of ground, but personally it's better to plan for those grounds than it is to plan for the smaller ones - especially considering we typically play most of our footy at the G and in Tassie.
 

Judd2Sewell

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I've always rated Eddie Betts as a player, he can do some really magical things in footy and does the basic stuff well - but jeez is he past it.

My main concern is that his age is reflecting poorly in the way that he plays, there are some pathetic bits of football that have crept in as a result. The amount of posing and bad sportsmanlike sh*t he did on Friday night was infuriating to watch, he's exaggerates contact at every opportunity, appeals every free kick and is generally a very poor sport - particularly in that first quarter.

Screaming in people's faces, rubbing opposition players heads, all that sh*t - the game wouldn't lose anything if that went away.
I love Betts too, he's a great character and has had some absolute magic moments that very few players can pull off. But he was well past it even last year.
 

Brishawk

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The thin ground excuse doesn't work when you choose to not use the center square.
We have optimised for a wide field. IT would be great if we could go up the middle as efficiently as down the wings etc. but typically we have gone wide out of defence before bring it back to the corridor and that is how we structure our running patterns. Changing that on the fly isn't so simple.

This video (if it uploads properly) was pulled down from the ABC article (I didn't name the file!). You can see we switch back and forth and then hit Breust on the bank flank which opens up the run. We end up bringing it through the centre and kit up a leading forward. Breust marks maybe 10 m from the boundary line off of a long lead. On a narrower ground it is easier to leave boundary riders to cut that off because you don't have to run as far back and forth when the ball is switched. We were completely lost when we looked to try and centre the ball from defensive 50 in the past few weeks. We just didn't know how to lead and make space there to make the kick a higher percentage play.

 

savagelunchbox

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We have optimised for a wide field. IT would be great if we could go up the middle as efficiently as down the wings etc. but typically we have gone wide out of defence before bring it back to the corridor and that is how we structure our running patterns. Changing that on the fly isn't so simple.

This video (if it uploads properly) was pulled down from the ABC article (I didn't name the file!). You can see we switch back and forth and then hit Breust on the bank flank which opens up the run. We end up bringing it through the centre and kit up a leading forward. Breust marks maybe 10 m from the boundary line off of a long lead. On a narrower ground it is easier to leave boundary riders to cut that off because you don't have to run as far back and forth when the ball is switched. We were completely lost when we looked to try and centre the ball from defensive 50 in the past few weeks. We just didn't know how to lead and make space there to make the kick a higher percentage play.

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Be that is it may, if the coaches can't adapt the game plan to smaller/thinner grounds, then you're going to lose a lot of winnable games. While the GF is played on a wide MCG, if you have to play lead-up games on smaller/thinner grounds, then you're going to be in trouble.

Pies, GWS, Melbourne and Sydney all made the gameplan look trash and theirs fantastic simply because the coaches couldn't or wouldn't adapt.

Having said that, the video is from 6 years ago. We're the only team still playing the same gameplan from 6 years ago. That team also had elite kicks everywhere and a KPF and that could kick 6 on more than one occasion. You can't compare the 2014 team to the 2020 team because the game and team are very different.
 

Brishawk

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Be that is it may, if the coaches can't adapt the game plan to smaller/thinner grounds, then you're going to lose a lot of winnable games. While the GF is played on a wide MCG, if you have to play lead-up games on smaller/thinner grounds, then you're going to be in trouble.

Pies, GWS, Melbourne and Sydney all made the gameplan look trash and theirs fantastic simply because the coaches couldn't or wouldn't adapt.

Having said that, the video is from 6 years ago. We're the only team still playing the same gameplan from 6 years ago. That team also had elite kicks everywhere and a KPF and that could kick 6 on more than one occasion. You can't compare the 2014 team to the 2020 team because the game and team are very different.
Pies move the ball in much the same way we do. Boundary first and then bring it back. 🤷‍♂️

I appreciate your point but I don’t think you can easily shift game plans when you get one sessions week to do it. And we don’t know they didn’t actually try...
 

savagelunchbox

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Pies move the ball in much the same way we do. Boundary first and then bring it back. 🤷‍♂️

I appreciate your point but I don’t think you can easily shift game plans when you get one sessions week to do it. And we don’t know they didn’t actually try...
All clubs use the boundary to open the middle, but the difference is most clubs will kick out to the 45o and then at some point try and hit a man through the middle, with teammates running past to support them in the run or should an error occur. They don't usually go backwards unless they're held up.
We follow a predetermined system, which involves going backwards and sideways trying to outrun our opponents to create space before using the middle if space exists.

Most clubs are trying to make space through running with the ball. We try to create space through not running the ball. A defensive setup that doesn't defend space should be able to stop that should you stop it before the space is created. Whereas the former is using multiple runners to clear the congestion in front of them to create space ahead of them and closer to goal. You need to force a turnover or stoppage to stop it. St Kilda are doing this well at the moment which is allowing an effective high ball entry to tall marking options.

As for using the middle, you'd know if we'd tried because we would have tried. There'd be copious amounts of footage. You'd have been able to say we tried and failed had we attempted to use the middle.

How many other clubs would you use the, "Here's where we're breaking down..." before going to footage from 2014?
 

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lethalselbow

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Nothing Kane Cornes says has any consequence in regard to the Hawthorn Football Club. His old man used to hate us and it appears he has passed this gene onto Kane. I used to listen to Graham Cornes on the radio years ago, and the mere mention of the name Hawthorn would have him spitting poison like some deranged death adder. I have no idea why, but I became so fed up I switched off and never went back. I care not what any member of the Cornes family thinks about Hawthorn, and nor should the club. I think I'd rather back Clarko's judgement than Kane.
Kane Cornes can be a bit of a flog, but i like the way he sticks to his guns. A lot of media their opinion from week to week, but Cornes sticks fat with his theories until he is proven wrong... dragged kicking and screaming to being proven wrong.
 

Pessimistic

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Kane Cornes can be a bit of a flog, but i like the way he sticks to his guns. A lot of media their opinion from week to week, but Cornes sticks fat with his theories until he is proven wrong... dragged kicking and screaming to being proven wrong.
‘if he explained his issues properly, he’d get respect. Gotta thank him and his clique for Burgoyne coming to the hawks though
 

Alite

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How good did Stratton today?

zero tackles.

Intercept hits?

Rebound stuff.

Stratts needs to give up the captaincy ...

The best man as the leader is McEvoy
Ben Stratton is not in the Hawks best 22.

Ben has no rebound and is not been better than his man. As a 3rd up he is absent.
Scrimshaw must play before Stratten, and CJ as well

Don’t get me wrong, I loved Straits. He just should not be captain.
 

On Topic

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To be fair, we don't play many games on narrow field and we aim to have the best game plan to win the grand final, which is usually played on a wide field. No doubt there was more going wrong than simply the field size though.
100%. Just re-watch the first 10-15 minutes against Carlton. The issues were there for all to see on a wider ground.
 

Brishawk

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100%. Just re-watch the first 10-15 minutes against Carlton. The issues were there for all to see on a wider ground.
I have re-watched the first half in detail to see what the difference was. I'll post a video sometime this week in the strategy thread but to summarise, in the first quarter we were very disorganised around stoppages. We also had a couple of defensive lapses etc. But we certainly had been more positive with the ball movement, we just didn't have a lot of the ball to show it until later in the quarter. In the second quarter, our stoppages were much better organised and it created better opportunities for repeat forward fifty entries, intercepts and ball movement.
 

On Topic

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Ben Stratton is not in the Hawks best 22.

Ben has no rebound and is not been better than his man. As a 3rd up he is absent.
Scrimshaw must play before Stratten, and CJ as well

Don’t get me wrong, I loved Straits. He just should not be captain.
I liked Stratton's game against Carlton. Especially in the first quarter when the heat was on.
 

On Topic

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I have re-watched the first half in detail to see what the difference was. I'll post a video sometime this week in the strategy thread but to summarise, in the first quarter we were very disorganised around stoppages. We also had a couple of defensive lapses etc. But we certainly had been more positive with the ball movement, we just didn't have a lot of the ball to show it until later in the quarter. In the second quarter, our stoppages were much better organised and it created better opportunities for repeat forward fifty entries, intercepts and ball movement.
I'm looking forward to seeing it! I think the issues around stoppages lines up with what Clarko was saying in his presser. I think he mentioned that Burns and Mitchell made some adjustments on the day. I am interested in seeing what these changes were.
 

Gralin

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I have re-watched the first half in detail to see what the difference was. I'll post a video sometime this week in the strategy thread but to summarise, in the first quarter we were very disorganised around stoppages. We also had a couple of defensive lapses etc. But we certainly had been more positive with the ball movement, we just didn't have a lot of the ball to show it until later in the quarter. In the second quarter, our stoppages were much better organised and it created better opportunities for repeat forward fifty entries, intercepts and ball movement.
First 15 minutes I think we had half their disposals, even less than half the marks, we just couldn't get and keep our hands on it
 

Simon_Nesbit

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I'm looking forward to seeing it! I think the issues around stoppages lines up with what Clarko was saying in his presser. I think he mentioned that Burns and Mitchell made some adjustments on the day. I am interested in seeing what these changes were.
We had dominant first hands to the ball in the ruck, which I don't think we planned for. Our mids were starting deeper, positioned defensively and played reactive in the first 10-15 minutes. With Ceglar/McEvoy dropping the ball at their feet (as is our want), we were beaten to the inside ball.

The first centre clearance our way, our onballers had moved into more neutral/attacking starting positions and we were first to the ball. From there I thought we were on top - even though Carlton kicked the next two goals and we still hadn't scored, the feel of the contest was in our favour.

Once the confidence to run came in, it was game over.
 

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