Ruckmen are overrated BIGTIME

[rfctigerarmy]

This is a horrible thread. We've missed Simmonds so much. With him, we probably would have got up in a few more games.

I think we have taken Pattisons performances for granted. This bloke has been great for us. He had a handful of games before this long period and now he is playing against the best ruckman in the comp for 75% of the game. He is definitely trying and giving a contest.

A Simmonds/Pattison combo when Simmonds gets back to 90% even could be a great combo.

Just have to say well done to Patto this year. Hes done much more than we could ask for. Good on you Adam.

 

[Rayzorwire]

Agreed Benny, good inside midfielders are more important than ruckmen.

If you have to choose between the two, I'd further agree that you go with the quality mids as a priority.

However, ideally, top sides have both a good tap ruckman, a decent, competitive, mobile backup, AND a good spread of inside and outside mids.

Ultimately, it's been good for our developing inside mids to have to rove to the opposition ruckman - the wheels can fall off sides with good ruckmen when they're having an off day and the mids can't adjust.

 

[#1 Tigers Fan]

He's great around the ground, but in the ruck he will have no influence on the game.

Studies have shown that hit outs are basically useless in winning games of football.

Foley (great clearance player) is MUCH more valuable than Simmo's hit outs. Ruckmen are only useful as a mobile KPP.

I agree that rucks are over rated but look at last 6 premiership teams:

C. Keating - Domminated hitouts by smashing the ball forward which allowed the midfeild to run on to the ball.

Brogan/Lade - Tapped the ball down beatifully to the midfeild giveing them first go.

J. Ball - Had a blinder Grand Final by tapping the ball to his midfeild superbly.

D. Cox - Arguably the best ruck going around, gives his midfeild fist go and dominates around the ground.

Without those players the midfeilders job is very hard. Although the midfeild can sometimes judge the tap of an oppisition ruckman and win the clearances.

 

[lids2004roar]

C. Keating - Domminated hitouts by smashing the ball forward which allowed the midfeild to run on to the ball.

Keating was average, the reason they won in the middle was because of Voss, Akermanis, Black, Power and Lappin.

He belted it forwards once in a while, first of all that's not even to advantage. He belts it to a 50/50 situation because he knows his midfielders will win it!!

So who deserves the most credit for winning the game? The ruckman who brilliantly puts the ball into a 50/50 situation, or the army of champion midfielders who constantly WON that contested ball and sent it into attacking 50?

I'll let you decide.

 

[PLSC]

of course you would pick a midfielder over ruck if it was a luxury but when your ruck stocks are pathetic you dont have a choice

dean cox and kosi were the 2 best for their teams today, ill have a bit of that thanks

 

[RECORDS!]

Benny, I know where you are going with this thread, but for the sake of your credibility you need to rename it 'Midfielders are more valuable than ruckman'. Simple really.

 

[Heisenberg_]

I think you're missing the point of a ruckmen benny, they don't just get hitouts, they don't all play like Knobel, the best ruckmen get the hitout and play like a ruck rover.

 

[santa claws]

its hardly worth putting two cents into this thread. but hey what the hell.
how many games have we won this yr. how many games have we been smashed in ruck. how many games have we won the clearance battles. how often have opposition ruckmen not only killed us at the stoppages but hurt us on the scoreboard.
but hey we dont need quality ruckmen just like we havent needed and apparently now have enough so called quality kpd.
make no mistake you need quality right across the board and depth in each key position least of which is a ruckman.

let me ask could sydney have won a gf without quality big ruckmen especially when you consider their style of play. doyle everitt jolley goodes ball erickson shaw are all 200cm + ruckmen goodes aside who have been on their list in recent times not to mention smaller type ruckmen.they have plenty of big bodied inside types who thrive on it being tight yet they seem to think ruckmen are important. i wonder why that is. wce have had gairdner cox seaby graham and michael embly on their list to counter them in recent times.i have no doubt they will draft another ruckman or two this yr.could wce have beaten sydney without cox last yr.

like i keep saying its well rounded footy teams that win premierships you ignore this fact at your peril. your footy team is only as good as your replacements you need 2 ff 2 chf 2 chb 2 fb and at least 3 ruckmen. this doesnt take into account players who are in the early development stages.at least one for each key position.

 

[kainokaino]

imo it was chris hydes best game this year

actually imo i reckon it was hes best game for the club

he might of only had 18 possies

but he was into everything, everytime there was a pack of people on the ball he was always on the bottom of it feeding it out to our runners

hopefully he gets more time in the center for the rest of the year and can keep doing what he did

 

[lids2004roar]

imo it was chris hydes best game this year

actually imo i reckon it was hes best game for the club

he might of only had 18 possies

but he was into everything, everytime there was a pack of people on the ball he was always on the bottom of it feeding it out to our runners

He only had 74% TOG too.

He had a good month earlier in the year before a fade/injury upset.

He showed glimpses last year (eg against Geelong) but he might be stepping up now. I agree, continue what he did last week for the rest of the year and I'll be happy

 

[kainokaino]

He only had 74% TOG too.

He had a good month earlier in the year before a fade/injury upset.

He showed glimpses last year (eg against Geelong) but he might be stepping up now. I agree, continue what he did last week for the rest of the year and I'll be happy

lol i didnt mean to post this response in this thread

people are probably thinking wtf is this bloke doing were talking about ruckmen

woops

 

[lids2004roar]

lol i didnt mean to post this response in this thread

people are probably thinking wtf is this bloke doing were talking about ruckmen

woops

Lmao I didn't even register until you said so!

 

[Weaver]

I am saying that a midfielder who can win the ball will win you more games than a ruckman who will win you hit outs.

That's true. But 'winning clearances' is the collective effort of 10 blokes - ruckwork just one. If you are saying we lost the hitouts (one bloke) but still manged to win the clearances (10 blokes) then yes - the work of 10 blokes is more important than the work of 1.

Hitouts are not valuable - but that is because we are not comparing apples with apples. The media still publish pure hitout numbers - not effective hitouts. We don't do that with tackles. It is a meaningless stat.

On the other hand Effective Hitouts (hitouts to advantage) are more meaningful and the presence of a negator like Pattison makes that tough. His job is to make hitouts neutral. Doesn't matter who gets first hand on the ball - White doesn't get to choose where he puts it. Pattison's job is to leave the ball in dispute.

Also even if hitouts are overrated - doesn't mean that Ruckman are.

A good, mobile ruckman who can read the play is vital.

They take up a place in the zone on a kick-in and discourage teams from kicking down the corridor. Force teams to go wide or short. For your team they provide the get-out-of-jail kick-in ... long out to a flank for the ruckman to bring to ground.

Ruckman attend more stoppages than any other player (even Foley who gets rotated at least a little). They can win touches - and because of their body size can lay blocks and tackles and help win the footy at ground level. Even if it is just a block to clear a path for a rover.

Dropping a kick behind play they can deny opposition sides the long kick. A ruckman lurking behind play forces an opposition to 1. Try to carry the ball an extra 20m before kicking, 2. Have an extra possesion, 3. Go short, 4. Change Direction. Similarly they can drop back in front of a forward and cut off his lead or force him wide. A large part of the reduction in long-kicking and contested marking in the AFL is the extinction of the dinosaurs and the rise of blokes who can motor around all day and deny the long kick.

A good ruckman who can get his angles right, get fit enough to cover a lot of ground, and show some courage - can influence the game without ever appearing on the TV screen.

Foley's clearances influence a game? Obviously. But how do you measure Simmonds dancing about 20m in front of Reiwoldt making him nervous about leading and his teammates unwilling to kick to him, and going short instead?

The ruckman role remains one of the most vital. He is a pretty important chess piece for a coach. He is after all the only player who is at all the stoppages, involved in all the kick-ins, and is the key player in your zone defence and blocking leads. He forces opposition clubs to change how they move the ball.

Simmonds is missed. And it ain't the hitouts, or the touches, or even the goals - they are bonuses.

 

[NQTIGER]

The post about great sides great ruckmen is true look at us.....



Mike Green, Mark Lee need i say more how many flags???

carlton

Mike Fitzpatrick, the Jail bird nicholls, percy how many flags????

essendon

madden

hawthorn

don scott

big men dont get smaller as the game goes on..........

 

[lids2004roar]

I was hoping this thread would eventually take the direction of discussing what we should do with our first draft pick. We may end up with the choice between a ruck or a midfield/forward of similar talent..
I get the impression the K-man is currently the standout which sounds excellent, but if the Cotch improved in the championships then would we target a ruckman (like having Jeff White) or go for the midfielder/forward (Nathan Brown/Deledio). Jeff White inspired the idea for this thread. If Melbourne had Deledio and we had White I think we would have been worse off. Both are #1 picks, one ruck, one midfield... from a spectator's view I know who I would rather in my team.

 

[Roger Dodger]

I'm disconcerted by a number of things raised on this thread:

1: the retrogressive appraisal of the ruck; it's the same idiotic approach favoured by Grant Thomas. Where is he now?

2: Does anyone recall Ball tapping out the back to Davis to clinch a final for Sydney? The same ruck superiority saw the Swans defeat the Saints in the prelim final the following week. How short are our memories?

3: Mark Lee dominated the 1980 GF. Set the tone for the rest of the day. Watch the game if you haven't. It will provide you with a refresher as it was the last premiership we have won. Sounds like you need one.

4: The endless and boring and, yes, constipated DYI analysis of the upcoming draft. This assumes we already know what position on the ladder we are going to finish. I'm not comfortable finishing last when the difference in ability between the number one pick and the number four pick is marginal at best. For the sake of the supporters, corporate sponsorship, team confidence and momentum going into 2008, we need to win as many games as possible.

 

[nut]

AA ruckman normally comes from the side with the best midfield. Look at WC last few Ruckmans, Gardiner, Cox etcc.. all tanted as the best Ruckman in the comp, why because of Kerr, Cousins, Judd etc...

 

[Goldust]

AA ruckman normally comes from the side with the best midfield. Look at WC last few Ruckmans, Gardiner, Cox etcc.. all tanted as the best Ruckman in the comp, why because of Kerr, Cousins, Judd etc...

THREE simple letters C O X! Those two consenants and vowel are all that is needed to determine whether ruckmen are overrated or not!
Anyone thinking that a 200cm plus guy, who roams around the ground and gathers 20 plus possessions each week, sneaks forwards to kick two or three goals and dominates the hit outs isn't a difference maker has rocks in their head!!!!!
He impacts on games....heavily!!! And wins plenty of his own ball.

Is it the fault of Foley, Lids, Coughlan, Tuck and Johnson that Trent Knobel could only manage a meagre five possessions a game at best?

I think not!

 

[santa claws]

That's true. But 'winning clearances' is the collective effort of 10 blokes - ruckwork just one. If you are saying we lost the hitouts (one bloke) but still manged to win the clearances (10 blokes) then yes - the work of 10 blokes is more important than the work of 1.

Hitouts are not valuable - but that is because we are not comparing apples with apples. The media still publish pure hitout numbers - not effective hitouts. We don't do that with tackles. It is a meaningless stat.

On the other hand Effective Hitouts (hitouts to advantage) are more meaningful and the presence of a negator like Pattison makes that tough. His job is to make hitouts neutral. Doesn't matter who gets first hand on the ball - White doesn't get to choose where he puts it. Pattison's job is to leave the ball in dispute.

Also even if hitouts are overrated - doesn't mean that Ruckman are.

A good, mobile ruckman who can read the play is vital.

They take up a place in the zone on a kick-in and discourage teams from kicking down the corridor. Force teams to go wide or short. For your team they provide the get-out-of-jail kick-in ... long out to a flank for the ruckman to bring to ground.

Ruckman attend more stoppages than any other player (even Foley who gets rotated at least a little). They can win touches - and because of their body size can lay blocks and tackles and help win the footy at ground level. Even if it is just a block to clear a path for a rover.

Dropping a kick behind play they can deny opposition sides the long kick. A ruckman lurking behind play forces an opposition to 1. Try to carry the ball an extra 20m before kicking, 2. Have an extra possesion, 3. Go short, 4. Change Direction. Similarly they can drop back in front of a forward and cut off his lead or force him wide. A large part of the reduction in long-kicking and contested marking in the AFL is the extinction of the dinosaurs and the rise of blokes who can motor around all day and deny the long kick.

A good ruckman who can get his angles right, get fit enough to cover a lot of ground, and show some courage - can influence the game without ever appearing on the TV screen.

Foley's clearances influence a game? Obviously. But how do you measure Simmonds dancing about 20m in front of Reiwoldt making him nervous about leading and his teammates unwilling to kick to him, and going short instead?

The ruckman role remains one of the most vital. He is a pretty important chess piece for a coach. He is after all the only player who is at all the stoppages, involved in all the kick-ins, and is the key player in your zone defence and blocking leads. He forces opposition clubs to change how they move the ball.

Simmonds is missed. And it ain't the hitouts, or the touches, or even the goals - they are bonuses.

very well put i agree with it all. i would even go thurther and say knobel has been missed he not only negates his opposition ruckman but often puts the ball to our advantage. his size and height is certainly needed when it comes to combating your biglands kings ottens coxs lades or your bigger ruckmen in the comp. he doesnt get a lot of ball but he does do a lot of those unnoticed things when his body allows him to play. unfortunately it looks like his body will never be right.

 

[lids2004roar]

Before getting injured Knobel played a full game in the pre season. Guess how many kicks he had?

One

We do not miss Knobel. Patto is much more valuable.

I added the "bigtime" in the topic title for dramatic effect, I guess the more accurate statement is 'hit outs are overrated" which means you are better off with someone like Patto who will win the ball around the ground but is poor at hit outs rather than Knobel who gets one kick with lots of hit outs.

In closing, aerobic "around the ground" ruckmen probably win you more games than a traditional "tap" ruckman.

 

[santa claws]

Before getting injured Knobel played a full game in the pre season. Guess how many kicks he had?

One

We do not miss Knobel. Patto is much more valuable.

I added the "bigtime" in the topic title for dramatic effect, I guess the more accurate statement is 'hit outs are overrated" which means you are better off with someone like Patto who will win the ball around the ground but is poor at hit outs rather than Knobel who gets one kick with lots of hit outs.

In closing, aerobic "around the ground" ruckmen probably win you more games than a traditional "tap" ruckman.

i agree the ideal is a big mobile well rounded ruckman ala cox. but when your no 1 ruckman is on the small side ie simmo the less than complete ruckman can become very valuable. look at sides like the wb. geelong melb syd they all have mobile ruckmen complimented by a so called dinosaur.they arent prepared to give opposition onballers an armchair ride. just because simmo is good around the ground should it mean we forego winning ruck contests thus making it easier to defend break even or attack depending on how our onbalers are going.with pattison in ruck we have been fair dinkum belted tis yr.
regardless of what type your ruckmen are either dinosaur type or your simmo jeff white mobile type as a ruckman you should at least be proficient and competitive in the role you are selected for.

 

[Crumden]

4: The endless and boring and, yes, constipated DYI analysis of the upcoming draft. This assumes we already know what position on the ladder we are going to finish. I'm not comfortable finishing last when the difference in ability between the number one pick and the number four pick is marginal at best. For the sake of the supporters, corporate sponsorship, team confidence and momentum going into 2008, we need to win as many games as possible.

Amen brother.