NRL Rugby league expansion

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GG.exe

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NRL agrees to new five-year broadcast deal with Nine

However, in a big day for the NRL, Abdo revealed to AAP that expansion to an 18th team before the deal ends is still possible if the game believes it is profitable.
However the season's format could still change again during the life of the deal, if the NRL believes it can pursue an 18th team and a ninth game each round.

"If we do expand, we will revisit [the TV rights] cost," Abdo said.

"Of course it is [possible an 18th team could come before 2028], absolutely. It's not out of the question.

"If the commission is satisfied with the business case for expansion, then we will sit down with our partners.

"The business case has to make sure the incremental investment covers what the cost is and adds value for everyone."
 
Feb 16, 2022
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Logan
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Yes, but that's not because the Manly catchment area is small.
The weaker Sydney NRL clubs have to find a way to better themselves as do the weaker AFL clubs in Melbourne.




Yes good idea for a name but that's all.
It's taken Fremantle a long time to build in a strong AFL state.
I suspect it might be the same for the Dolphins without onfield success.
Storm have been successful due to onfield success.
Melbourne Storm benefitted from SEQ being severely under-represented from 1998 onwards. The Storm's success has appealed to bandwagon supporters who like a winner.

Manly have never tried to expand their fanbase. They'll need to rebrand to something more inclusive, like North Sydney Sea Eagles, if they want to expand into the North Shore. Bears are not coming back, so it's important that plans are put in place to get kids from the North Shore supporting the Sea Eagles or Roosters.

West Coast Tigers or West Coast Sharks would be a nice name for a relocated team in Perth. There is potential for a Perth-based team to add juniors to the NRL. They're already producing more juniors than Melbourne despite having no team in the national competition since 1997. The game has grown in Melbourne since the Storm were introduced. Far more kids are playing the game in Victoria in 2022 than in 1997.
 

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RedV3x

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The Storm's success has appealed to bandwagon supporters who like a winner.

How many times do i have to state the obvious -onfield success.

Manly have never tried to expand their fanbase. They'll need to rebrand to something more inclusive, like North Sydney Sea Eagles,

It would be be good to rebrand but onfield success is much more important.
North Sydney may have produced derbies but it is also neighbouring Manly.
North of the harbour, Manly is the NRL team.

West Coast Tigers or West Coast Sharks would be a nice name for a relocated team in Perth.

A relocated side is easier than a standalone team, in the begginning, but to say that W.A. produces more juniors than Victoria is in fact an indictment of poorly Victoria not rich W.A.
 
Feb 16, 2022
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Logan
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
How many times do i have to state the obvious -onfield success.
If on field results are so important, then how come the North Queensland Cowboys were the 6th most watched NRL club in 2020, despite finishing third last on the NRL Premiership Ladder?

Cronulla Sutherland Sharks finished eighth on the NRL Premiership Ladder but were less popular among TV viewers than 11 other clubs.

Brisbane Broncos finished last on the ladder but were the most watched club.

Manly finished ahead of North Queensland Cowboys on the NRL Premiership Ladder by one place but were the 10th most watched club, making them more popular than Cronulla Sutherland Sharks. Cowboys drew an extra 2.5 million viewers than Manly for our broadcasters.


Manly have enjoyed on field success throughout their history and never finished last on the premiership ladder, but their attendances and TV ratings over the last 20 years have been atrocious. It shows that on field success doesn't mean much when a team is confined to a small market.
 
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Heardy_101

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If on field results are so important, then how come the North Queensland Cowboys were the 6th most watched NRL club in 2020, despite finishing third last on the NRL Premiership Ladder?

Cronulla Sutherland Sharks finished eighth on the NRL Premiership Ladder but were less popular among TV viewers than 11 other clubs.

Brisbane Broncos finished last on the ladder but were the most watched club.

Manly finished ahead of North Queensland Cowboys on the NRL Premiership Ladder by one place but were the 10th most watched club, making them more popular than Cronulla Sutherland Sharks. Cowboys drew an extra 2.5 million viewers than Manly for our broadcasters.


Manly have enjoyed on field success throughout their history and never finished last on the premiership ladder, but their attendances and TV ratings over the last 20 years have been atrocious. It shows that on field success doesn't mean much when a team is confined to a small market.

You're either missing the point or being deliberately ignorant. I suspect it's the latter....
 

RedV3x

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If on field results are so important, then .....

Popularity, attendance etc is based on a number of things historical position, ladder position and even a little promotion.
We were talking about clubs in a competitive environment (mainly in Sydney) trying to improve their market share.
Onfield performance is critical. Promotion and naming can help.
If you cannot see that then I cannot help you.
 
Feb 16, 2022
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Logan
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Popularity, attendance etc is based on a number of things historical position, ladder position and even a little promotion.
We were talking about clubs in a competitive environment (mainly in Sydney) trying to improve their market share.
Onfield performance is critical. Promotion and naming can help.
If you cannot see that then I cannot help you.
The problem with Sydney is there's too many clubs!

Cronulla has been a mainstay in the top eight for years, yet they're one of the least viewed clubs on TV. Manly were drawing atrocious crowds when they were a mainstay of the top eight and winning premierships. If what you're saying is true then Manly and Cronulla would have pulled an average of 20k punters through the gate to their home games and drawn strong TV ratings during their run of on-field success. The fact they don't, whereas Brisbane and North Queensland are able to draw strong TV ratings when they're at the foot of the premiership ladder proves your theory is incorrect.

There's no reason for Sydney to have nine clubs. There just aren't enough RL supporters in Sydney. Reduce the amount of clubs to six and you'll see better attendances and TV ratings in Sydney over the next 30 years. The data shows attendances have improved in Sydney since it went from having twelve teams to nine. It's a start, but we need to get rid of another three if we want the game to be sustainable in Sydney.
 

Jatz

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The problem with Sydney is there's too many clubs!

Cronulla has been a mainstay in the top eight for years, yet they're one of the least viewed clubs on TV. Manly were drawing atrocious crowds when they were a mainstay of the top eight and winning premierships. If what you're saying is true then Manly and Cronulla would have pulled an average of 20k punters through the gate to their home games and drawn strong TV ratings during their run of on-field success. The fact they don't, whereas Brisbane and North Queensland are able to draw strong TV ratings when they're at the foot of the premiership ladder proves your theory is incorrect.

There's no reason for Sydney to have nine clubs. There just aren't enough RL supporters in Sydney. Reduce the amount of clubs to six and you'll see better attendances and TV ratings in Sydney over the next 30 years. The data shows attendances have improved in Sydney since it went from having twelve teams to nine. It's a start, but we need to get rid of another three if we want the game to be sustainable in Sydney.
You absolutely will not see better attendances. I don't know what logic you're using for that claim. Those fans that lose a club aren't just going to go support a new team.

Sydney might have too many clubs but you won't strengthen League in Sydney by getting rid of clubs.
 

RedV3x

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The problem with Sydney is there's too many clubs!

Depends on your modelling.
Unfortunately it's near impossible to back the truck up to an earlier or boutique model.

If what you're saying is true then Manly and Cronulla would have..

disappeared if they hadn't had the onfield success that they had.
You have not factored in history and established attitudes etc.
Onfield success doesn't generate massive crowds - it creates better crowds,
but it takes time to build for onfield success to attract newbies.
 
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Feb 16, 2022
33
53
Logan
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
You absolutely will not see better attendances. I don't know what logic you're using for that claim. Those fans that lose a club aren't just going to go support a new team.

Sydney might have too many clubs but you won't strengthen League in Sydney by getting rid of clubs.
Let's look at attendances when there were eleven Sydney teams and one in Wollongong.

In 1996 there were five Sydney clubs who averaged less than 10k.

Sydney Easts
17,060
Manly
12,519
St George
11,167
Parramatta
11,113
Sydney Norths
10,963
Cronulla
10,515
Canterbury
7,544
Illawarra
7,434
Sydney Wests
6,964
Balmain
6,094
Penrith
5,351
South Sydney
5,031


In 2016, the least popular of Sydney's nine teams drew better crowds than the seventh highest attended club in 1996. Sydney Easts drew 10,245 in 2016, which was better than five Sydney clubs and one Wollongong-based club in 1996. The sixth best attended Sydney club in 1996 was barely above the least attended team in 2016.


If we go back to 1981 when there were 12 teams in Sydney then the average was 8,647.


I rest my case.
 
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Feb 16, 2022
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Logan
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
You rest your case?

Excellent, because your case was (is) stupid.
I've provided facts to back up my claims. The records prove that attendances to RL games in Sydney have improved significantly since it was rationalised from eleven teams to nine. Another poster said attendances wouldn't improve and RL wouldn't be stronger. The nine clubs in 2016 are financially stronger than the eleven that were around in 1996. This is all objectively true and if you dispute it then you're arguing against history and reality. St George Illawarra draw better crowds in Wollongong than the Steelers ever did.

What have you and your side provided, other than schoolyard insults and opinions without any evidence to back them up?
 
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Feb 16, 2022
33
53
Logan
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Depends on your modelling.
Unfortunately it's near impossible to back the truck up to an earlier or boutique model.



disappeared if they hadn't had the onfield success that they had.
You have not factored in history and established attitudes etc.
Onfield success doesn't generate massive crowds - it creates better crowds,
but it takes time to build for onfield success to attract newbies.
Manly and Cronulla would disappear within 5 years if the annual grant wasn't 130% of the salary cap.

Cronulla are still a financial basket case, losing $5.49 million in 2019 and only barely making a profit last year after receiving two very large one off payments. There isn't enough capital nor fans in Sydney to support nine NRL clubs. Every year we squander over $100 million on Sydney's clubs to keep them afloat, to the detriment of genuine expansion in Adelaide, Brisbane, New Zealand and Perth. It's lunacy and setting the game back.
 

Jatz

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I've provided facts to back up my claims. The records prove that attendances to RL games in Sydney have improved significantly since it was rationalised from eleven teams to nine. Another poster said attendances wouldn't improve and RL wouldn't be stronger. The nine clubs in 2016 are financially stronger than the eleven that were around in 1996. This is all objectively true and if you dispute it then you're arguing against history and reality. St George Illawarra draw better crowds in Wollongong than the Steelers ever did.

What have you and your side provided, other than schoolyard insults and opinions without any evidence to back them up?
And you think that the financially stronger aspect has nothing to do with the obscene TV deals or that clubs like Penrith rely on pokie machine money that are far more prevalent now? There's also the giant government grants helping clubs like the Tigers create their new centre of excellence etc.

You're using numbers to create a narrative that is fanciful and simple, at best.
 
Feb 16, 2022
33
53
Logan
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
And you think that the financially stronger aspect has nothing to do with the obscene TV deals or that clubs like Penrith rely on pokie machine money that are far more prevalent now? There's also the giant government grants helping clubs like the Tigers create their new centre of excellence etc.

You're using numbers to create a narrative that is fanciful and simple, at best.
I've pointed put that the annual grant sitting at 130% of the salary cap has helped enormously, but clubs were not generating as much revenue in 1995 as they are today. They need to generate far more to cover the the higher amount of employees they have these days.

Broncos, Rabbitohs, Roosters, Cowboys, Storm and Raiders have created a solid revenue stream away from their Leagues Clubs. Titans don't have a Leagues Club and are financed by Darryl Kelly and Rebecca Frizelle.

Manly could be powerful if they branched out of their small pocket on the peninsular. They've chosen to be insular and exclusive, which has seen their crowds drop since their prime in the mid-90s. It's too late for them as the Roosters have adopted ties with the North Shore and Central Coast.

Cronulla are making the right moves, but they're still financially unstable and need to grow their base if they want to survive long-term. That will be hard to do with St George surrounding them to the north and south with money from Wollongong's Bruce Gordon.
 

Jatz

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I've pointed put that the annual grant sitting at 130% of the salary cap has helped enormously, but clubs were not generating as much revenue in 1995 as they are today. They need to generate far more to cover the the higher amount of employees they have these days.

Broncos, Rabbitohs, Roosters, Cowboys, Storm and Raiders have created a solid revenue stream away from their Leagues Clubs. Titans don't have a Leagues Club and are financed by Darryl Kelly and Rebecca Frizelle.

Manly could be powerful if they branched out of their small pocket on the peninsular. They've chosen to be insular and exclusive, which has seen their crowds drop since their prime in the mid-90s. It's too late for them as the Roosters have adopted ties with the North Shore and Central Coast.

Cronulla are making the right moves, but they're still financially unstable and need to grow their base if they want to survive long-term. That will be hard to do with St George surrounding them to the north and south with money from Wollongong's Bruce Gordon.
This comment alone shows you've got no idea what you're talking about. The Roosters playing a couple of games at Gosford a season haven't helped put a stronghold in that area, neither did aligning with the Wyong Roos.
 
Feb 16, 2022
33
53
Logan
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
This comment alone shows you've got no idea what you're talking about. The Roosters playing a couple of games at Gosford a season haven't helped put a stronghold in that area, neither did aligning with the Wyong Roos.
It takes time to develop a fanbase. Give it 20 years so that the juniors who are meeting the Roosters today have a chance to become members and attend matches on their own accord.

How do you think the Swans and Lions increased their footprint in Sydney and Brisbane?
 
Feb 16, 2022
33
53
Logan
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Onfield success was the main ingredient. You cannot beat a Brisbane threepeat except with a perennial Melboune Storm.
Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne all played in very heart of their region.
AFL has spent hundreds of millions of dollars promoting their game to children in Brisbane and Sydney for over 30 years. When I was a kid a Brisbane Bears player came out to my school to promote the game in the mid 1990s.

On-field success played its part, but don't delude yourself into thinking the hundreds of millions of dollars that AFL has pumped into junior development in Brisbane and Queensland hasn't played a role. If nothing was spent by AFL then the junior system in Brisbane and Sydney wouldn't be much bigger than junior RL in Melbourne.
 
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