Rugby League?

[sbagman]

Can anyone fill me in on what the supporter reaction to RL is? Have they embraced the mergers? What are average crowds like? Yes I know I live in Brisbane, but I hate RL with a passion and I'm too lazy to find out this for myself.

Will RL ever challenge AFL? Will AFL ever overcome RL in NSW and Qld?

 

[Sydneyfan]

I don't think that Rugby League will ever really challenge the AFL as Australia's favourite football code. Rugby League had its halcyon days, in terms of popularity, in the late 80s' early 90s' where it was by far the most popular football code in Queensland and New South Wales. The State of Origin matches were huge and big discussion points for the week leading and after the match. I'm not too sure about other cities but in Sydney, Rugby League has far as I know was it's most popular stage during this time. My parents and others say how in the past Rugby League was never incredibly huge in Sydney and didn't have the huge tribal following of VFL/AFL supporters. There were (and still are) die-hard Rugby League supporters who go to every game, year in, year out but in Sydney they're more the exception than the rule.

Ever since the Super League fiasco in 1995 Rugby League has suffered. Rugby Union and AFL have gone from strength to strength in Sydney. It was great time for the Swans to emerge as a force when they did, couldn't of scripted it better, and in my opinion the Super 12 competition and the TriNations Cup have been great innovations in raising the profile of Rugby Union.
Soccer which is the most played football code in Sydney is popular, though the NSL hasn't exactly flourished.
Rugby League will never eclipse Aussie Rules in the Aussie Rules heartlands of WA, SA, Tasmania and Victoria, Rugby Union or even Soccer would have a greater chance.

Poor management, including far too ambitious expanding of the ARL/NRL and the development of the Super League war, killed any chance of Rugby League coming close to being the most popular football code in Australia.
Now I'd see in popularity it would be behind Rugby Union in Sydney and Australia wide.

I used to follow Rugby League quite closely and go to several matches a year but now have nothing more than a passing interest in the game.

 

[Sydneyfan]

Most people haven't really embraced the mergers, the Rugby League mergers (with the possible exception of the St George-Illawarra merger) make the Brisbane-Fitzroy merger look terrific.
Already, one of the merged entities, the Northern Eagles (a merger between Manly and Norths) looks like unraveling.

The average crowds are nowhere near as high as in AFL, I'd say the average crowds would be between 10,000 and 14,000, probably about 12,000. Nothing like 34,000 or so average AFL crowds. Rugby League has never drawn near as many people to games as the AFL has.

I can't see AFL being the most popular code in NSW apart from areas where it already is, such as the Riverina. Though I think that the AFL has the capacity to be a major player and could possibly be even with Rugby Union, which looks likely to become more and more popular.

Rugby League looks fairly stable at the moment in terms of popularity and is a bit more popular than it has been over the last 5 years.

Soccer's quite big but not huge in the spectator stakes in NSW.
So, in 20 years in terms of popularity: Rugby Union may be the most popular, followed by AFL and Rugby League and Soccer. Though it's hard to tell and in 20 years it could be possible that all four codes are fairly even in terms of popularity in NSW.

 

[Ms.Storm]

Sbagman, I presume you follow the Lions in Brisbane.
Were you a Bears supporter before the merger with Fitzroy.?
Its interesting to hear different people's reactions to different sports and likes and dislikes.

It amazes me how many people just stick with one sport and either don't bother attending other footy codes, yet still intensely dislike say league/union/ or soccer. I guess its just personal preference, but sometimes its lack of knowledge or the fact that friends and family follow a particular game, and not explore other footy codes.

When we migrated to Aust. my dad was huge on soccer and took me to games, but when I started school, of course, in Victoria, everyone follows afl, that was where I developed my passion for the Dees. But as time went on and I started looking at rugby and league, the more I watched it, the more I began to love the 2 codes, more so rugby league originally, watching it on Ch.9.
With the advent of PayTV (Optus for me) it seemed to expand my horizons more for even gridiron and gaelic footy (both codes not particularly I am fond of).

Anyway, I guess what I am trying to say is I find it interesting as to why more people (especially Victorians just stick with say afl, or just soccer, or whatever) when there's a big choice out there to enjoy them all, without being just biased to one sport.

Going back to the rugby league mergers, I am sure Sydney people would know a fair bit more than I do living here in Melbourne.

I do think however, the West Tigers merger has been a good one along with the St. George one. Perhaps the Northern Eagles one is a little shaky, but I doubt whether it will disband. People don't give these things time. Its only into its 2nd year. I believe it will be a success ultimately, but propbably the 2 teams supporters were not the best of buddies before the merger!!

Rugby League has never drawn big crowds like afl, but in NSW and Q'ld AFL will never be the No. 1 sport. The same principle would be reversed here in Vic. SA and most probably in WA re AFL AND rugby and league. Though I would not be surprised if in a few years in WA there is an equalisation of afl/soccer/union as there is a huge influx of expats who are participating and wanting soccer and union teams.

Rugby League in NSW and I also think in Q'ld. attracts a huge pay-tv audience and this in turn I am sure keeps a lot of the crowds at home. They do love their league in NSW but tend to watch it on TV more than go to games.

I somehow think that with Ch.,9 gaining the rights to the afl, there could (eventually) be a reductions in afl crowds too (may take quite a few years though) as people will get many more games on Ch.9/Ch.10 and as PayTv becomes more popular.

I think soccer (if it gets its act together Australia wide) could very easily take over as a No.1 sport in Aust. as can be seen by the amount of kids that are now playing the game.

Just my view as a Victorian..Hope it helps you a bit.
(Don't be so biased against League....its great...you should enjoy all sport...or try to anyway!!)

 

[sbagman]

Hi Ms Storm,

I'm from Melbourne, and followed Fitzroy down there. When they merged, I lost interest in AFL, but moving up to Brisbane made me think perhaps I should support the Lions, especially considering the fact that they were no longer 2000km away.

I don't like RL because I believe that Australian sport represents Australian culture... our historic teams and the way we support them is something I haven't experienced in another country. RL more than any other code has done as much as possible to destroy that history, so for this reason I think it is a league full of corporate inventions which don't elicit passion. We should be careful though, as AFL could be headed the same way... it has already started down that road.

Cheers,
Sbagman.

 

[James2]

Rugby League

I am facinated by how many people recycle the myth that Pay-TV has an affect on Rugby League crowds.

This is a complete falsehood.

Last year, the average attendance for the NRL was the highest ever. In 1983, when tv coverage was not as extensive, the average crowd was only 6,500 (VFL average attendances were also half what they are now).

Average crowds have actually increased despite Pay TV. Rugby League attendances have been smaller than the VFL/AFL for many years. Why this is so, I don't know. It certainly has nothing to do with pay tv.

It is sad that such lies are perpetuated, unfortunately it is symptomatic of the negative press in Australia.

Cheers.

 

[Ms.Storm]

Sbagman,
So what you are basically saying is that you don't support a sport that is not invented here in Aust.?? If that's the case you wouldn't like soccer, basketball, etc. because they are all games, that had beginnings in other countries and are corporately run.

Anyway I disagree with your theory, rugby league and union and soccer all endear passion with their supporters.
All popular team sports are all headed down the way of corporatisation..whether we like it or not...afl tried to spread its wings overseas a long time ago also to generate interest and of course money.

This is a very interesting topic for me as sport is a passionate
subject.
Did you find that with Fitzroy merging with the Bears, put a dampener on afl for you. Do you feel as passionate for that team as you did for the Lions.

I would be different to you, if the Dees had merged with Hawks, I would not have gone back to afl AT ALL.


James2, thanks for your insight and input...very interesting...and yes the power of the press certainly can influence our thinking.!!

 

[sbagman]

Originally posted by Ms.Storm
Sbagman,
So what you are basically saying is that you don't support a sport that is not invented here in Aust.?? If that's the case you wouldn't like soccer, basketball, etc. because they are all games, that had beginnings in other countries and are corporately run.

No not at all. My point is that it is the teams competing which conjure up the passion, not the sport itself. To an extent anyway. I mean, obviously you have to have an interest in the sport to follow the team.

My point is that the old teams in the AFL, NRL are a link to our culture. The Melbourne teams grew from the inner suburbs of Melbourne, and each cultured its own idenitity through their history, giving genuine rivalries. For me, Fitzroy was close to my heart because they were the unfashionable losers, much like myself (!)... I'm sure everyone knows each team in Melbourne has its own identity. In this way, the teams are links to our culture. Fitzroy and Collingwood were links to the working-class inner suburbs they represented, as much as other teams appeal to different parts of the social spectrum.

No it seems we are willing to forego these links, to nationalise the game... I agree in theory to the concept of nationilisation, but not the homogonisation of the game... as names and colours are changed, teams are relocated and mergers, the links with the old football culture are lost, for me anyway.... teams exist now on the basis of "catchment areas", their ability to attract corporate sponsorship... I feel we are supporting teams which are more or less becoming alike. In the NRL this is especially evident.... the history is wiped away, and so there is nothing to distinguish the teams culturally.

Not sure if I've made my point, but I am dead against commercialisation, and yes, since 1996, despite me following Brisbane in theory, the reality is my passion for the game is largely lost, and I feel I am not alone in this... in the end, the customer is always right.

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

Ms Storm

What evidence do you have to support your contention that tye merged clubs are 'doing well' ?

From where I sit here in Sydney I have to disagree - they have all been absolute disasters really.

You are right, St George - Illawarra has been the most successful merged club, both on and off the field, but thats only beciase itr is less a merger, more a takeover. St George completely dominates the merged club. You have to look long and hard to detect any of the old Illiwarra Steelers in that bunch.

Wests Tigers - two clubs with absolutely nothing in common (not even colours) except they are both losers. Doomed to failure, thenonly thing nice you can say about Wests Tigers is that can now watch them get done by 50 points at both Campbelltown and Liechardt.

Northern Eagles - dead flat broke these guys, they have no money, just last week they had to beg News Limited for yet another 3 million dollars just so they could pay their players. The old Manly and North Sydney always hated each other - now these guys face each other over a boardroom table. No wonder the whole thing has gone so terribly pear-shaped.

Ms Storm, it might interest you to know that these Rugby League shotgun marriages have all been total failures, as they always going to be.

The code itself will always live on howevevr, RL is nothing if not a survivor.

cheers

 

[sbagman]

BSA, Ms Storm, SydneyFan... do the new merged clubs have a real identity? If so, what is it?

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

yeah - good question sbagman, and one that really gets to the heart of the matter as far as these RL merged clubs go.

Its difficult, as I said befopre, some mergers have been reasonably successful, most have been pretty dismal failures.

The club with the most 'identity' is probably Saint George-Illawarra, but that is only because there is virtually nothing left of the Illawarra Steelers anymore, its all the Saint George culture which is one of the Rl's oldest and most successful clubs. The Dragons are called the 'Steel Dragons' these days and play a few games out of the local stadium in Wollongong. But apart from these two token gestures you would be hard pressed to pick any difference at all between the old Saint George identity and the identity of the merged club. Its been a takeover, where one big successful club (ST George) has 'taken over' a smaller less successful club (Illawarra). Saint George absolutely dominates the new merged club and this is the only reason why the exercise is working.

As for Wests Tigers and the Northern Eagles ? - 'nuff said probably, they are both failures. Probably because they did not have enough similarities to be able to successfully merge in the first place.

Manly and North Sydney were traditional enemies, nothing has changed with the North Sydney and Manly factions on the Eagles Board at each others throats and all the while the club itself is flat broke and struggles to attract 10,000 to a home game.

Same with Wests Tigers - the main rationale for forcing a merger between these two guys (again clubs with absolutely nothing in common with each other) was that it made sense to combine two total loser clubs into one entity in the hope they actually start to win a couple of games.

Stupid idea really - add one loser team to another loser team and what do you get ? - another loser team !

'Identity' in these contrived, artifical merged clubs remains an elsusive commodity. Not surprisingly crowds are small and they seem reluctant to really get out there and barrack for thier team. Atomsphere at these games is often non-existant and I really don't blame Rugby League fans for staying away in droves.

The Rugby League as they used to know it has been completely gutted and replaced with a contrived and fake setup that lacks history, credibility and genuinel tribal appeal.

No wonder nobody is really inteterested in it anymore.

cheers

disclosure : I barrack for South Sydney

 

[Ms.Storm]

BSA , thanks for answering on my behalf...with you living in Sydney, you may probably have a better perspective on the mergers.

I am pretty sure that I mentioned the St.George Merger as being successful, and also from what I have hear and read here in Melb., the Tigers merger has been quite successful.

I do know in fact that the Northern Eagles merger is somewhat a disaster at the moment, financially speaking. However, 2 years into a merger is still much too early to say whether further down the track, this venture will fold.

The Market is Sydney was too crowded...and something had to be done to streamline the comp. (have heard and read lots of arguments on this matter as well). This is just my opinion.
The same will happen here in Melb. with afl...its inevitable.

With your team, South Sydney, future very clouded, its no wonder you are somewhat bitter towards the NRL. I would be too, if my Demons were to have merged with the Hawks.

However, I feel nothing remains the same, and what you and I and Sbagman feel about our"domestic" and "tribal" comps., the future is in the hands of our children and as proved overseas, football teams are big "businesses" and are run by corporate bodies...so just lets enjoy what we have!!! We can't live in the past ..we all have to move on.

Cheers.

 

[sbagman]

Originally posted by Ms.Storm

The Market is Sydney was too crowded...and something had to be done to streamline the comp. (have heard and read lots of arguments on this matter as well). This is just my opinion.
The same will happen here in Melb. with afl...its inevitable.

But is mergers the way to go? Or even relocation? In my opinion, if we have to "streamline" the comp, why don't we drop some Vic teams back into the VFL... if that had happened with Fitzroy, at least the supporters would have something to support (no offence to the Reds). I believe that forced mergers and relocations are not the way to go. The idea is that you can, in the case of mergers, take two weak teams, merge them, and the supporter base will be the two old bases combined. What crap. It's commercial rationalisation, but sport should NOT be commercial. It should be our escape from all that rubbish. It should respect history and tradition. I don't care what anyone tells me, if I don't feel the passion for a merged team, then that is the reality of the situation. Not some economically viable version.

 

[Ms.Storm]

I am with you on the subject of merged teams..

I think also that if a competition needs to be streamlined...the organising body should drop a couple of teams into a lower grade so supporters would still have a team to follow....however, would that be economically viable in such a small populated country as Aust.?

Whether we like it or not, sport is now a business too.....players payments have a lot to answer for with what has happened to teams we love.

The other thing to consider is the fact that supporters don't want their team to play in a lower grade comp....to me it would not matter, but I think to most supporters they would want their team to play in the best comp. available.

Its surely a very interesting topic...I also think in the next 10 or so years the afl comp. in Melbourne will change drastically....the afl commission is already putting on the pressure...don't believe the fact that with the new tv rights, all the teams will be guaranteed a future.!!

Cheers.

 

[sbagman]

Re: I am with you on the subject of merged teams..

Originally posted by Ms.Storm
I
Whether we like it or not, sport is now a business too.....

Not true. WE have the control over the competition, we just don't exercise it. If noone supported these merged teams, then they wouldn't happen in the first place. If noone goes to the AFL games, they would think twice about turning the game into a sterile entertainment package rather than a footy game. Yet we are the stupid consumers, we shovel in our Maccas and Coke and keep going to the footy... then complain about the homogenisation of culture and the loss of football's souyl. Yes I know its to support your club through thick and thin, but isn't the argument that no club is bigger than the game?

We have the power to stop the changes by stopping our attendance.

That's what I reckon. If the Brisbane Strikers get kicked out of the NSL, I am never going to an NSL match again, and if all Brisbanites did that, and not support the new NSL team in Brisbane, I'm sure they'd think again about pulling sh*t like they have been.