Rugby's evolution towards a Great game.

[Peter P]

Watching the second Test twixt the Wallabies and th Lions and it was clear that Rugby has evolved enourmously over the last 10 years.

For most of its history Rugby consisted of a bunch of fat slow buggers scrumming around in the mud so they could get it to light framed backs kicking the ball out on the full for the next line-out.

It has achieved what John O'Neill - ARU prez- said it must: " become faster and more attacking to compete with the AFL"!!!

Its achieved it - far more entertaining now and much more than the one-dimensional Rugby League.

But at what cost? - the English star kicker had his kicking leg in plaster, there were 2 serious concussion, 2 broken noses, 2 cases of broken ribs, 2 sore necks, 2 bung shoulders and numerous corkies and at times groggy heads arising from that Second Test.

O'Neill and the Super 12 comp. plus Rugby's professional status now have made the game more like Australian Football. But without rules against charging, tripping, around the neck [well not enforced anyway], in the back and kicking in danger or so it seems foul after disposal - Larkham got flattened after his two kicks and the ref said to his homicidal assailant "try and be more careful"! Inside Sport reported that in the short time since Rugby professionalised and the old fat slow blokes and the light framed runners became hard edged locomotives - that serious injury rates had doubled and were on an ever rising curve - that just got steeper in this Lions tour.

Rugby will have to modify its rules if it wants to be faster and more attacking - perhaps banning in the back, tripping, high tackles, homicidal charging, foul after disposal and give some protection to the bloke catching the high ball - make the mark the onus of the refs call rather than the beseiged player. Might even have to change the name of the game!!

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

Speak for yourself

As somebody that played heaps of Rugby Union at all levels (yes I even represented my country at School Boys level once) when I was kid - I actually miss the way the game used to be played.

For me, modern professional rugby union is too fast and too sanitised.

The Lineout, for example, is now completely emasculated. Its as dumb and as boring as a Rugby League scrum. Permitting lifting in the lineout is dumb, dumb, dumb IMHO.

Same with rucking and mauling - one of the best things about old fashioned Rugby was the chance to get stuck into the packs and do some major damage on some poor hapless player caught on the bottom of these pile-ups. Not allowed to do that anymore, apparently its 'naughty'.

Raising the points allocated for a try from 4 to 5 points is daft as well - why didn't they just reduce the value of a goal from 3 points to 2 like in Rugby League ? (much more sensible)

Call me a Luddite, but I have genuine nostalgia for the way Rugby used to played as an amateur game. I actually enjoyed all that scrummaging around in the mud and getting down and dirty with all the other fat slow buggars.

Oh and btw - Obviously you have not watched much Rugby from New Zealand because 'lighly framed backs' have not been in the New Zealand side since Sid Going and Grant Batty retired in 1977.

Its been big strong fast buggars like John Kirwin, Christian Cullen, Frank Bunce and Jonah Lomu that have characterised All Black backlines for the last 20 years or so.

cheers

 

[Mr Ripper]

Originally posted by Peter P
It has achieved what John O'Neill - ARU prez- said it must: " become faster and more attacking to compete with the AFL"!!!

AS opposed to the AFL and it's umpiring department, whose philosophies and tacit condonation of illegal and uglifying tactics have ensured that most games are reduced to dour, defensive scrambles...much like rugby used to be, in fact.

 

[Peter P]

Mr Ripper where are you coming from? Dour scrambles??? Everyone is saying the problem is that the game is too open and skill based with so much uncontested marks and soccer like criss-crossing possession - the chipping game that the AFL is trying to reduce by extending the distance for a mark.

As for noting the violence of the game - well I wasn't alone - others who watched the game likened it to watching the opening scenes of Saving Private Ryan with all the wounded lying about being tended by medics. So it may be "sanitised" with no longer enough time for all the funny business in the scrums, but the injury rate is horrific - go see the article on it in Inside Sport from April or May if you don't believe me.

Actually Bloodstained Angel I have watched a lot of Rugby for the last 30 plus years having grown up with a Welsh family background. The old slow game holds some nostalgia too and yes the big Polynesian backs are a reason why the All Blacks were invincible for so long.


By the way the Lions played Port Adelaide in their first ever tour in a game of Australian Football - and beat them. A rematch may've been the only way to get them to SA. Port would surely get some frees from beign tripped, pushed in the back, heads taken off etc. They've got the dam-busters in Francis and Dew to beat the Lions ultraflood - but the flattening after disposal may stop them. Be an interesting match.

 

[Mr Ripper]

Peter P wonders...
Mr Ripper where are you coming from? Dour scrambles??? Everyone is saying the problem is that the game is too open and skill based with so much uncontested marks and soccer like criss-crossing possession - the chipping game that the AFL is trying to reduce by extending the distance for a mark.

Yes. Dour scrambles.

Free flowing, skilful games are now as rare as chicken lips, sadly.

 

[Peter P]

You must be watching videos of the 1970s, Footy is more free flowing - maybe too much so, though some teams do successfully flood.

But as I was saying - Footy could have a bright future in the UK, and from what I've heard quite a few Lions supporters were quite taken with the AFL games they saw. maybe they'll follow the lead of the Aretians Rugby club in Bristol who formed the Bristol Dockers for their summer season sport - from the homepage of http://www.bristoldockers.co.uk/ :

Australian Rules Football is a growing sport in Britain and Bristol Dockers are the first team to be established in the west of England. We play in the British League (BARFL) and supply representatives to the British National Team. The league's games are played in the spring and summer months - it's a great way to keep fit if you don't play cricket and it won't interfere with your football/rugby duties.
In order to continue the team's development we are always looking for new players. You DON'T need (a) to be Australian, (b) to be >6' 5" tall, or (c) to have exisiting Aussie Rules skills. We won't turn you away if you have any of these qualities, though!!! We pride ourselves in developing LOCAL talent and have the greatest proportion of British players of any team in the BARFL. Each season, our newcomers improve in leaps and bounds so don't be afraid to come and join us.

 

[CJH]

Originally posted by Peter P
You must be watching videos of the 1970s, Footy is more free flowing - maybe too much so, though some teams do successfully flood.

...

Modern day football is about 66% free flowing. That is to say, it flows nicely out of the backline, through the midfield and to an area approximately 60 metres from goal.

At this point, it hits the opposing 33% and then chokes!

 

[Mr Ripper]

Peter P imagined...
You must be watching videos of the 1970s, Footy is more free flowing - maybe too much so, though some teams do successfully flood.

The claim that modern footy is more free flowing is an utter fallacy. There was actually a study released recently that showed that, in the 60s, the ball was in play 75% of the time; by the late 90s, the ball was in play less than 50% of the time. Now that ain't what I'd call 'flowing football'!

Perhaps you should check out a video of 70s footy where you may well be surprised to see the ball is in motion for most of the time; as opposed to the current game where it's ball-up...scramble...pack...ball up...scramble...scrappy kick...out of bounds...throw in...ruckman grabs ball out of air and it's held to him...ball up...scramble...etc, etc, until someone finally breaks the game open.

I do admit though, that the modern game is much faster moving (when it actually gets moving), but that's mainly because the players get so many breathers whilst all the crap goes on around them.

If you like your football action to be non-stop (ie: flowing), the 70s, 80s and into the early 90s was where it's at!

 

[Dipper]

Peter P,
I wouldn't argue that rugby has improved in terms of being a free flowing game but then basketball is the most freeflowing of games & to me it is a load of cr@p,you have to find the right balance.In fact up here in England we've been highly suspicious of many of the rule changes that have occured in rugby in the last 10 years, the ideas for many of which have originated in Australia.The feeling is that the ARU is trying to move Union closer to Rugby League with either the idea of replacing League in it's heartland in Oz or an eventual unification of the codes.We don't always have a great deal of respect for the Super 12 as we call a lot of the games basketball rugby whereby one side run up the pitch endlessly recycling the ball & score a try & then the other side do the same.

I prefer the fact that the players especially 'the old fat slow blokes' are now highly trained powerful athletes but like BSA I lament the lack of PROPER scrums, at least up here we contest the scrums & don't just assume that the side putting the ball in automatically get to keep it as in league, also the line out is a joke, let's see blokes jumping on their own with out being lifted 6 feet off the ground,but mainly I miss the good old fashioned maul when a clever pack could move the ball 50 metres in one go without having to spin the ball wide & I miss good hard rucking where the 'criminals' who lay on the wrong side got a bloody good 'shoeing' for their troubles.Also who misses the big all in brawls that used to occur in evry international game?If it was a poor game they used to be the only talking point.

Having said that at least now we don't see those terrible kicking duals that used to occur with 5/8s like Grant Fox,Rob Andrew & even Noddy Lynagh at times-how cr@p was that?

One of the biggest problems for us is the number of games we play-Austin Healey will be playing his 51st game of the season on Saturday & in a game as physical as rugby is now that just isn't feasible over a long period of time.Our players will only get a month off before the start of the next season so it's no wonder so many of them have had to leave this tour with injuries-it's the greed of the clubs & Unions in Europe that is forcing this to happen & it's an area where Australia/NZ/SA are well ahead of us.I believe the top players won't even play 30 games in a season & will have a far longer break.

BSA,
When did you get to wear the black shirt & what position did you play?& did any of your team mates become well known players?

 

[TheSchwatta_#2]

Rugby is boring. HAs anybody seen a Sydney Club game? If it wasnt for Super12 and it's bonus points for attacking rugby it would still be a slow game.

Wonder how Tom Hafeys game plan of kicking the ball long and hard would match up to the zone tactics used by coaches these days? Such a simple and effective game plan yet coaches have become more complicated with all these new tactics!

I agree that it has become defensive, but only in the past couple of years. It's still played at a torrid pace as compared to other sports apart form athletics.

 

[Same Old's]

They kick the ball too much in Rugby Union. I would like to see the ball in play much more.

 

[Peter P]

Flooding hey. I think the flooding stuff is 66% perception, been around for decades especially when kicking into the wind. I read a piece by Jim Main in Inside Football quoting a coach in the 1930s saying flooding was ruining the game!

Mr Ripper I watched the all night finals marathon before last years GF. The standard of footy that I saw was far inferior to today's. Nonetheless it was exciting for its day, and there were more "characters" - something that should be welcomed back.

Anyway there'll never be as much flooding in footy as there is in Soccer, Rugby and Basketball.

Interesting views Dipper. I loved watching Wales when it was the 5-Nations on free to air TV here, trying to hold off the English by slowing the play and turnign the game into a no-try penalty goal shoot out. But then if I wasn't passionate for Wales I wonder if I'd have got bored.

 

[McKenna for PM]

Originally posted by Bloodstained Angel
Same with rucking and mauling - one of the best things about old fashioned Rugby was the chance to get stuck into the packs and do some major damage on some poor hapless player caught on the bottom of these pile-ups. Not allowed to do that anymore, apparently its 'naughty'.

It is one thing to impose a physical presence on a forward pack, but it is another to wantonly cause life-changing injuries. I've been the victim of some thick-headed moron's steel studs gouging my face, and I've seen it done in the middle of packs. I made it my duty to single those players out and beat the living **** out of them. If they were on my team then I'd save my wrath for later. Facial bones break very easily under the force of an entire body focused on the tiny area of a couple of steel studs. But look at the glory of it. X player has to leave the field for surgery after tough little Johnny stomped on his face in the ruck.

There's such a thing as nostalgia, and such a thing as ignominy.

And on a lighter note - lifting's great. I used to be "held up" in a lineout contest and all the girls thought that I could really jump that high. And who was I to break it to them?

 

[Mr Ripper]

Originally posted by Peter P
Mr Ripper I watched the all night finals marathon before last years GF. The standard of footy that I saw was far inferior to today's. Nonetheless it was exciting for its day, and there were more "characters" - something that should be welcomed back.

The 'standard' may have been inferior, but the 'style' certainly wasnt (IMO).

I firmly believe if you could somehow manage to get today's well-trained, disciplined and fit players playing 70s style football, you would have a sport that's so spectacular, you would actually have to pay people to stay away.

My theories on umpiring would assist this in coming to fruition, btw.

 

[Joel]

I like Rugby Union, much more than League. Union is more appealing to me for some reason.

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

DIPPER

I toured Fiji, Tonga and Wesern Samoa with New Zealand Schoolboys in 1978.

Also toured New South Wales and the ACT with Wellington U17's in 1979.

The only guy I can remeber for sure who went onto bigger and better things was Frank Bunce, who went on to play alot of provincial rugby before making his debut for the All blacks as a 31 yo in 1993 (I think)

Apparently Michael Jones was also on that Schoolboys tour as well but buggered if I can remmber him !

I played mostly Lock, but on those rare occasions when I was fit enough to run harder than my usual lumbering gait, I sometimes got a run at Blindside flanker or Number 8 as well.

cheers

 

[Dipper]

Thanks BSA, I sure remember Frank Bunce (with his sidekick Walter Little) I presume from your 'lumbering gait' that you were more suited to the game as it was then rather than the dynamic fitness obsessed sport that is has evolved into-LOL.

 

[PiesPremiers]

im sick of this arse sniffing game being compared to our great game!!!

gordon bray, ARE YOU SERIOUS MATE???

im upset when the words AUSTRALIAN FOOTBALL LEAGUE and mentioned or compared to rugby league or union...

they are kidding themselves right??

its a bit like guys coming on here bagging collingwood, they know they admire us, and have to compare/bag us to get any satisfaction out of themselves!! it makes them feel better!

makes me sick rugby league/union supporters!!

you will never be anywhere near our great game!!!! NEVER!!

 

[Bum-Sniffer]

Originally posted by PiesPremiers
im sick of this arse sniffing game being compared to our great game!!!

gordon bray, ARE YOU SERIOUS MATE???

im upset when the words AUSTRALIAN FOOTBALL LEAGUE and mentioned or compared to rugby league or union...

they are kidding themselves right??

its a bit like guys coming on here bagging collingwood, they know they admire us, and have to compare/bag us to get any satisfaction out of themselves!! it makes them feel better!

makes me sick rugby league/union supporters!!

you will never be anywhere near our great game!!!! NEVER!!

AGREE 124% Dan!

U DRUGBY & THUGBY BUM SNIFFING BUFFOONS CAN PISS OFF & GET YOUR OWN THUKEN BOARD TO POST ON. YOUR GAMES ARE A THUCKEN JOKE & DISGRACE TO AUSTRALIAN SPORT!

 

[PiesPremiers]

Originally posted by Bum-Sniffer


AGREE 124% Dan!

U DRUGBY & THUGBY BUM SNIFFING BUFFOONS CAN PISS OFF & GET YOUR OWN THUKEN BOARD TO POST ON. YOUR GAMES ARE A THUCKEN JOKE & DISGRACE TO AUSTRALIAN SPORT!

isnt that what i said minus the filthy language??


was that a waste of time making a new name just for the one post?? or are u going to hang around and post more garbage when rugby is brought up??

sorry buse... u know what i mean!