Russia invades the Ukraine

[Zidane98]

The government before the revolution is the same as after with a new leader which was elected democratically. Putin isn't happy about that because he no longer has a puppet running Ukraine for him. The rebels are simply sponsored by the Russians to cause political unrest in an attempt to retain control over Ukraine. They have absolutely zero political legitimacy in the eyes of anyone bar the Russians.

And yes there may have been small amounts of protesters that did the wrong thing but the overwhelming majority just want a prosperous future for the country minus russia holding a gun to its head. The idea of the govt being fascist / neo nazi is yet another russian propaganda myth.

 

[The Coup]

I do, but there is a short timeframe on how long Ukraine can continue to govern this way without elections. Russia don't want to simply incorporate Eastern Ukraine into Russia (they could have done so easily by now). They want Ukraine united, fascist, and pro Russian. NATO want Ukraine balkanised, fascist and pro-western.

Ukrainians want to not starve.

 

[The Coup]

And fascism is the only choice in politics. I don't understand why some Russian supporters are using it as an insult either, the pro-Russian forces are just as fascist as the pro-NATO ones. Ukraine has never had a populist left wing movement let alone government. I honestly fear for its safety as a state.

 

[Zidane98]

www.unrefugees.org.au

The latest estimate from the United Nations High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR) is that 110,000 people have crossed to Russia in 2014.

You do realise that this website says there is only 300 refugees a day leaving Ukraine!!!

Russia has claimed 800,000 since the revolution!! At the rate of 300 per day it would take 7.3 years for refugees to reach this number. And who knows how many of those would be rebels guilty of war crimes who have fled from capture and arrest.

 

[The Coup]

I daresay its hard for anyone to really know what's happening on that border. It's not like Australia where we have a coastline. There'd be tonnes of dual nationals, spies, refugees, irregular militia etc going back and forth constantly. Imagine the Yugoslavian border during the breakup.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

You do realise that this website says there is only 300 refugees a day leaving Ukraine!!!

Russia has claimed 800,000 since the revolution!! At the rate of 300 per day it would take 7.3 years for refugees to reach this number. And who knows how many of those would be rebels guilty of war crimes who have fled from capture and arrest.

You are, i suspect, a Ukranian "Campaigner" - so whatever you write is utterly biased. These figures from the UN and many other sites all diasgree with you.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

What is happening is the Ukranian army are fighting back against an armed insurgency sponsored by russia on their territory. Some of the sepratists are undoubtedly launching attacks and hiding behind civilians. They are the target of any military attacks. Certainly not civilians. Once again you are spouting russian propaganda. There's no genocide and there were no russian backed sepratists until putins puppet yanukovych was legitimately removed from power. That is the story here.

How is setting fire to buildings and killing police officers 'legitimately' removing a democratically-elected President from office? You were right that there were no separatists before Euro-Maidan - because nobody felt alienated. Western Ukraine wanted to go one way, Eastern Ukraine the other. Both felt aggrieved, but only the 'pro-West' mob has any right to revolution?

I mean, come on...

 

[Zidane98]

You are, i suspect, a Ukranian "Campaigner" - so whatever you write is utterly biased. These figures from the UN and many other sites all diasgree with you.

You can't be helped. The very site you posted quotes 300 refugees day. The Russians are claiming a humanitarian crisis where 800k have fled in 6 months.

I wasn't too interested in the whole conflict until 35 Australians lost their lives thanks to russian backed rebels shooting at anything that moves in the sky. One of the victims was part of the Victorian soccer community who I knew indirectly. We've yet to hear an apology from the scumbag russian backed rebels about it either. So I am definitely no Ukranian campaigner mate. I can see what is going on when facts are presented unlike yourself.

 

[awaremind]

The government before the revolution is the same as after with a new leader which was elected democratically. Putin isn't happy about that because he no longer has a puppet running Ukraine for him. The rebels are simply sponsored by the Russians to cause political unrest in an attempt to retain control over Ukraine. They have absolutely zero political legitimacy in the eyes of anyone bar the Russians.

And yes there may have been small amounts of protesters that did the wrong thing but the overwhelming majority just want a prosperous future for the country minus russia holding a gun to its head. The idea of the govt being fascist / neo nazi is yet another russian propaganda myth.

Wrong.
The Party of regions- Yanukovyches party was In control, now its a coalition, more or less led by Arseney "we'll get those Bastards" Yatseniuk (who looks like he could be good mates with Scott Morrison), Poroshenko and Turchinov. The far right -wing Fatherland party(whose founder Tymoshenko wanted to nuke east Ukrainian Russians) seems to have the most Influence, followed by the even further Right wing Svoboda party. Mind you Even the party of regions was corrupt and pretty right wing, but at least it represented the East rather than calling for the literal death of 40% of the population.

 

[Long Live HFC]

How is setting fire to buildings and killing police officers 'legitimately' removing a democratically-elected President from office? You were right that there were no separatists before Euro-Maidan - because nobody felt alienated. Western Ukraine wanted to go one way, Eastern Ukraine the other. Both felt aggrieved, but only the 'pro-West' mob has any right to revolution?

I mean, come on...

(not that i think it makes much difference but) in comparison the euromaiden revolution was less about force of arms and more about force of numbers. certainly nobody was shooting down civilian airliners in november. doesn't necessarily make it right, and it doesn't excuse the deaths that occurred. but i feel it's pretty clear which 'revolution' has had the higher body count.

the east had a chance to go to the polls like everyone else. when you consider some recent history in SE asia, a few months for an election to be held is world record time!

 

[awaremind]

You can't be helped. The very site you posted quotes 300 refugees day. The Russians are claiming a humanitarian crisis where 80k have fled in 6 months.

I wasn't too interested in the whole conflict until 35 Australians lost their lives thanks to russian backed rebels shooting at anything that moves in the sky. One of the victims was part of the Victorian soccer community who I knew indirectly. We've yet to hear an apology from the scumbag russian backed rebels about it either. So I am definitely no Ukranian campaigner mate. I can see what is going on when facts are presented unlike yourself.

You have a major comprehension problem. It said three hundred per day were arriving at its St Petersburg immigration office. I'm guessing they probably can only deal with that amount per day. Since many Ukrainians have friends and family on either side of the border, its hard to know the exact numbers. Many would be staying with family.

 

[awaremind]

(not that i think it makes much difference but) in comparison the euromaiden revolution was less about force of arms and more about force of numbers. certainly nobody was shooting down civilian airliners in november. doesn't necessarily make it right, and it doesn't excuse the deaths that occurred. but i feel it's pretty clear which 'revolution' has had the higher body count.

the east had a chance to go to the polls like everyone else. when you consider some recent history in SE asia, a few months for an election to be held is world record time!

If Yanukovych was truly a brutal dictator he would have slaughtered the maidan protestors. I guess he didn't have the guts, heart or probably enough loyal minions.

 

[Long Live HFC]

If Yanukovych was truly a brutal dictator he would have slaughtered the maidan protestors. I guess he didn't have the guts, heart or probably enough loyal minions.

they killed a few. i also dont necessarily hold a PM/president personally responsible for the actions of their civil servants. would depend on the context. i dont necessarily think the killing of protestors should be seen as a valid reason/motivation for bringing down the government, either. but hey, thems the breaks.

 

[Zidane98]

Wrong.
The Party of regions- Yanukovyches party was In control, now its a coalition, more or less led by Arseney "we'll get those Bastards" Yatseniuk (who looks like he could be good mates with Scott Morrison), Poroshenko and Turchinov. The far right -wing Fatherland party(whose founder Tymoshenko wanted to nuke east Ukrainian Russians) seems to have the most Influence, followed by the even further Right wing Svoboda party. Mind you Even the party of regions was corrupt and pretty right wing, but at least it represented the East rather than calling for the literal death of 40% of the population.

Are you a Russian propaganda puppet? You're taking one phone call out of context when tymoshenko mentions nuking Russians as a joke, , not literally. I've said as a joke to Essendon supporting mates that windy hill should be nuked; I'm definitely not literally suggesting it should happen!!

 

[awaremind]

Are you a Russian propaganda puppet? You're taking one phone call out of context when tymoshenko mentions nuking Russians as a joke, , not literally. I've said as a joke to Essendon supporting mates that windy hill should be nuked; I'm definitely not literally suggesting it should happen!!

Its not a joke when you go on to shell their cities for 2 months!! Hey I see the truth as grey, when our media portrays it as black, I try to show it as white, the net result is more in the middle.

 

[Zidane98]

You honestly expect that the Ukranians are going to just sit on their arses and not return fire when attacked by the rebels? The rebels are the aggressors, not the Ukranians.

 

[The Coup]

You honestly expect that the Ukranians are going to just sit on their arses and not return fire when attacked by the rebels? The rebels are the aggressors, not the Ukranians.

That's not accurate on a number of levels.

Ukrainian forces have targeted significantly more civilians, and in much heavier manner. Russia has nothing to gain by the rebels storming Kiev or slaughtering people. not saying it doesn't happen, just that it isn't their focus. Ukraine needs to win soon, because they're going to lose elections if they don't, so they are attacking harder.

But its already, potentially too late. A number of commentators believe the heaviest fighting to be over and the rebels thoroughly dug in with plenty of Russian support.

 

[Zidane98]

The rebels are the target, not civilians. Unfortunately the rebels are using civilians as human shields.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

You honestly expect that the Ukranians are going to just sit on their arses and not return fire when attacked by the rebels? The rebels are the aggressors, not the Ukranians.

Not even close to being true. After the legitimate President was overthrown those in the East saw the writing on the wall. They would be marginalised, and so moved to defend themselves against the incoming rulers. They should have the legitimate right of secession - granted this would means areas of Russia such as Chechnya have the same right. And further afield, to places like Tibet.

An unfettered referendum should be held in Eastern Ukraine. If the secessionist win, and win democratically, no hand should be raised against them. Crimea as well - repeat the referendum, and if the numbers are with the secessionists Kiev should have no course but to cede control.

 

[awaremind]

That's not accurate on a number of levels.

Ukrainian forces have targeted significantly more civilians, and in much heavier manner. Russia has nothing to gain by the rebels storming Kiev or slaughtering people. not saying it doesn't happen, just that it isn't their focus. Ukraine needs to win soon, because they're going to lose elections if they don't, so they are attacking harder.

But its already, potentially too late. A number of commentators believe the heaviest fighting to be over and the rebels thoroughly dug in with plenty of Russian support.

Not without a new opposition they won't ! Haven't they beaten up and or thrown out any resistant politicians ? They regularly punch on in parliment there!

 

[The Coup]

Yeah but how long can international support for an unelected government last?

NATO aren't going to war. Russia isn't going to let Ukraine win Eastern Ukraine. Nor is Russia going to let the country be balkanised. Russia has talked the whole time as if its an internal Ukrainian problem, because they do not see it as an option to have power sharing.

This is the new standard for NATO disputes - depending on who the foreign power is, they might be able to call NATO's bluff militarily in the right part of the world. Russia knows it can do that in Eastern Europe and the Caucasus. That's what it, imo, boils down to. Who is prepared to go furthest. And with Putin talking up Russia as a nuclear power, and nuclear weapons as a deterrent, he is making it clear where he's prepared to look.

And the Ukraine is not worth fighting even a regular war over, there's no grassroots movement worth supporting. Let alone a nuclear war or world war.

 

[The Coup]

Not even close to being true. After the legitimate President was overthrown those in the East saw the writing on the wall. They would be marginalised, and so moved to defend themselves against the incoming rulers. They should have the legitimate right of secession - granted this would means areas of Russia such as Chechnya have the same right. And further afield, to places like Tibet.

An unfettered referendum should be held in Eastern Ukraine. If the secessionist win, and win democratically, no hand should be raised against them. Crimea as well - repeat the referendum, and if the numbers are with the secessionists Kiev should have no course but to cede control.

Russia don't want balkanisation. That's a huge step back for them.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Russia don't want balkanisation. That's a huge step back for them.

I realise that. China would become alarmed at more balkanisation precedents too. Eastern autonomy within a Ukrainian Federal Republic is what they're aiming for, I think. Dunno exactly how that might work in Russia's favour if the Federal Government in Kiev still has jurisdiction over defence, trade ties and military alliances though.

Would Ukraine be in and out of NATO and/or the Shanghai Co-Operation Organisation whenever there's an election reversal? Neutrality may be in everyone's best interests in that part of the world.

 

[The Coup]

I realise that. China would become alarmed at more balkanisation precedents too. Eastern autonomy within a Ukrainian Federal Republic is what they're aiming for, I think. Dunno exactly how that might work in Russia's favour if the Federal Government in Kiev still has jurisdiction over defence, trade ties and military alliances though.

Would Ukraine be in and out of NATO and/or the Shanghai Co-Operation Organisation whenever there's an election reversal? Neutrality may be in everyone's best interests in that part of the world.

It might just end up working like Crimea did previously, like a Hong Kong or Macau type set up. But answering to Russia more than Ukraine.

That would be a win for Russia I agree.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Yeah, Special Administrative Regions might work, but I see the people in Honkers are agitating for more democracy at the moment - Russia might want to consider just how 'special' these regions become if they were going for the SAR model.

http://news.yahoo.com/hong-kong-democracy-activists-blast-shameful-britain-082812738.html
...Activists in the former British colony had their hopes for genuine democracy dashed after China announced on Sunday that the city's next leader would be vetted by a pro-Beijing committee.

In a statement late Thursday Britain's Foreign and Commonwealth Office said: "We welcome the confirmation that China's objective is for the election of Hong Kong's Chief Executive through universal suffrage."

It said there was no perfect model, adding it recognised that the "detailed terms" of the decision would disappoint people pushing for a more open nomination process.

Democracy activists were dismayed by London's response, which they view as a statement aimed appeasing a major trade partner at the expense of its former subjects.

"I have one word for that: shameful," veteran democracy campaigner Martin Lee told AFP.
"They won't dare say anything that might possibly offend Beijing..."