Ryan Gardner is a good footballer - post your apologies here

[doggies ftw]

Not sure how closely you’re watching.

Against Geelong, Gardiner played on Hawkins. Hawkins didn’t do much (might of kicked 1 or 2). Cameron kicked 6 on Keath.

Against Fremantle, Lobb kicked his 4 on Cordy. Cordy was terrible that day.

Against Carlton, Curnow kicked 5 which were either opportunistic snaps or dubious free kicks. McKay was better than Curnow that game, he took Keath to the cleaners with his contested marking in the 1st half.

Gardner was our best performing key backman this year by streets and rarely got beaten despite poor defensive structure.

He is a serviceable footballer that will continue to improve. I have no issue with him being a staple of the defende for the next 5 or so years. Need to get some better support around him.

This is the otherside of the argument that the people that complain about the criticism of Gardner don’t recognise

“Curnow kicked 5 on him but they were all lucky” “Hey he might have had 12 kicked on him but tbf there was an insect that got in his eye”

Gardner was soundly beaten on plenty of occasions this year, was he our best performed tall defender? Yeah he probably was, has he improved sure, but * me people cannot admit that he can actually be faulted, and people can’t admit that he does actually do some good things too

He’s a solid defender, possibly ranked 30-40 in the league? Would any team have a worse ‘best key defender’? I’d be surprised.

That’s the truth of it, will he keep improving yes probably, do we need to improve on him absolutely, could
he fill a role alongside good defenders in a good defence? Sure he probably could

 

[House_of_Dahl]

Yeah think the issue is more he shouldn't need to be our best KPD. If he's only required as our third best KPD (matching his pay cheque) then we are laughing. Agree his progression has been great. Jones might actually be a good KPD mentor for him (some similar traits).

 

[Mofra]

First impressions take an eternity to shake in the AFL.
Consider people calling Gia 'soft' 8 years into his career. Gardiner was pretty shaky early on - as you'd expect a mid-season draftee thrown forward after playing mostly defence at VFL level.

I think he'll turn out to be pretty decent no 2 KPD but right now is a late bloomer shoehorned into the no 1 role.
The fact he regularly manages up to 100% TOG and battles his heart out every minute of every game deserves respect, as is his ability to get to contests that other KPDs we have may not have been able to get to.

 

[ossie_21]

This is the otherside of the argument that the people that complain about the criticism of Gardner don’t recognise

“Curnow kicked 5 on him but they were all lucky” “Hey he might have had 12 kicked on him but tbf there was an insect that got in his eye”

Gardner was soundly beaten on plenty of occasions this year, was he our best performed tall defender? Yeah he probably was, has he improved sure, but * me people cannot admit that he can actually be faulted, and people can’t admit that he does actually do some good things too

He’s a solid defender, possibly ranked 30-40 in the league? Would any team have a worse ‘best key defender’? I’d be surprised.

That’s the truth of it, will he keep improving yes probably, do we need to improve on him absolutely, could
he fill a role alongside good defenders in a good defence? Sure he probably could

Your frustration is misdirected at Gardner, when it should be towards our list management that has left us in the position he is now our #1 KPD. He was #2 until Keath half died, but we had gotten away with a quite very inexperienced pairing considering Keath was a mature age recruit/late starter to AFL as well.

Having Jones next season will help, but I’d still love to be able to attract another gun KPD if there is no hope Keath can rebound with a summer of rehab to get his body right again.

 

[maddog37]

Your frustration is misdirected at Gardner, when it should be towards our list management that has left us in the position he is now our #1 KPD. He was #2 until Keath half died, but we had gotten away with a quite very inexperienced pairing considering Keath was a mature age recruit/late starter to AFL as well.

Having Jones next season will help, but I’d still love to be able to attract another gun KPD if there is no hope Keath can rebound with a summer of rehab to get his body right again.

We have a gun key defender. He plays full forward.

 

[Proffessor]

First impressions take an eternity to shake in the AFL.
Consider people calling Gia 'soft' 8 years into his career. Gardiner was pretty shaky early on - as you'd expect a mid-season draftee thrown forward after playing mostly defence at VFL level.

I think he'll turn out to be pretty decent no 2 KPD but right now is a late bloomer shoehorned into the no 1 role.
The fact he regularly manages up to 100% TOG and battles his heart out every minute of every game deserves respect, as is his ability to get to contests that other KPDs we have may not have been able to get to.

Couldn't disagree more Mofra,

Suggesting people critical of Ryan are being influenced by his early form is just a convenient way to try and discredit their opinions without having to address their arguments.

The high% game time is a misleading stat as our other tall defenders tend to spend most of the game on the ground when they play a similar role. So is the inference that he was just is a mid season draftee from the VFL, ignoring the fact that was the second time he was drafted, after previously spending 3 years on Geelong's AFL list. And besides that mid-season draft was a long time ago in 2019.

Even the comment about 'getting to contests', is questionable. He gets to some contests but not to others, like any player. Just because he occasionally goes to some contests he might not be expected to (or even wanted to) doesn't mean he gets to contests that others couldn't. A lot of the time when he goes to 'help' out team mates in contests I sincerely wish he hadn't, and suspect that they often feel the same.
Besides if he supposedly he can get to more contests than other similar players why does he have so few contested possessions. A large number of his disposals are still racked up as we switch the ball across the ground while the opposition is pushing back.

It's actually a bit of an indictment for a bloke that entered the AFL system way back in 2015 that the best argument his supporters can currently muster against criticism essentially translates as 'Yeah he was crap at the start but he's not that bad now, and he might still improve a bit more'. He has already been in the AFL system for more than twice the length of the average AFL career. There needs to be a better reason to justify such extra-patient treatment.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

Couldn't disagree more Mofra,

Suggesting people critical of Ryan are being influenced by his early form is just a convenient way to try and discredit their opinions without having to address their arguments.

The high% game time is a misleading stat as our other tall defenders tend to spend most of the game on the ground when they play a similar role. So is the inference that he was just is a mid season draftee from the VFL, ignoring the fact that was the second time he was drafted, after previously spending 3 years on Geelong's AFL list. And besides that mid-season draft was a long time ago in 2019.

Even the comment about 'getting to contests', is questionable. He gets to some contests but not to others, like any player. Just because he occasionally goes to some contests he might not be expected to (or even wanted to) doesn't mean he gets to contests that others couldn't. A lot of the time when he goes to 'help' out team mates in contests I sincerely wish he hadn't, and suspect that they often feel the same.
Besides if he supposedly he can get to more contests than other similar players why does he have so few contested possessions. A large number of his disposals are still racked up as we switch the ball across the ground while the opposition is pushing back.

It's actually a bit of an indictment for a bloke that entered the AFL system way back in 2015 that the best argument his supporters can currently muster against criticism essentially translates as 'Yeah he was crap at the start but he's not that bad now, and he might still improve a bit more'. He has already been in the AFL system for more than twice the length of the average AFL career. There needs to be a better reason to justify such extra-patient treatment.

Geez, you talk absolute rubbish!

 

[Mutt]

Couldn't disagree more Mofra,

Suggesting people critical of Ryan are being influenced by his early form is just a convenient way to try and discredit their opinions without having to address their arguments.

The high% game time is a misleading stat as our other tall defenders tend to spend most of the game on the ground when they play a similar role. So is the inference that he was just is a mid season draftee from the VFL, ignoring the fact that was the second time he was drafted, after previously spending 3 years on Geelong's AFL list. And besides that mid-season draft was a long time ago in 2019.

Even the comment about 'getting to contests', is questionable. He gets to some contests but not to others, like any player. Just because he occasionally goes to some contests he might not be expected to (or even wanted to) doesn't mean he gets to contests that others couldn't. A lot of the time when he goes to 'help' out team mates in contests I sincerely wish he hadn't, and suspect that they often feel the same.
Besides if he supposedly he can get to more contests than other similar players why does he have so few contested possessions. A large number of his disposals are still racked up as we switch the ball across the ground while the opposition is pushing back.

It's actually a bit of an indictment for a bloke that entered the AFL system way back in 2015 that the best argument his supporters can currently muster against criticism essentially translates as 'Yeah he was crap at the start but he's not that bad now, and he might still improve a bit more'. He has already been in the AFL system for more than twice the length of the average AFL career. There needs to be a better reason to justify such extra-patient treatment.

It doesn't carry any weight with me when you put up a straw man argument that the best his supporters can come up with is ...'Yeah he was crap at the start but he's not that bad now, and he might still improve a bit more'.

The best argument in support of Garner is the statistics posted earlier in the thread. Statistically, and in the eyes of the Match Committee who keep selecting him and voted him top 10 in the club's B&F, Gardner had a very good season. That's the best argument in support of Gardner. And it's more compelling to me than dozens of posts from the same few whose criticisms are entirely subjective.

 

[Proffessor]

It doesn't carry any weight with me when you put up a straw man argument that the best his supporters can come up with is ...'Yeah he was crap at the start but he's not that bad now, and he might still improve a bit more'.

The best argument in support of Garner is the statistics posted earlier in the thread. Statistically, and in the eyes of the Match Committee who keep selecting him and voted him top 10 in the club's B&F, Gardner had a very good season. That's the best argument in support of Gardner. And it's more compelling to me than dozens of posts from the same few whose criticisms are criticisms are entirely subjective.

The most important statistical parameter is the fact that we conceded 1812 points in 2022 compared to only 1501 points in the 2021 regular season.

And considering there was less injury impact on the availability of our 3 primary KPD's (i.e. Gardner) in '22 compared to '21, this suggests our Match Committee's preferred approach needs to change, because is isn't working.

 

[Foxman98]

The most important statistical parameter is fact that we conceded 1812 points in 2022 compared to only 1501 points in the 2021 regular season.

And considering there was less injury impact on the availability of our 3 primary KPD's (i.e. Gardner) in '22 compared to '21, this suggests our Match Committee's preferred approach needs to change, because is isn't working.

Ah yes let’s blame it all on Gards because he was the one who gave up all 1812 points there’s no other possible conclusion to draw

 

[Mutt]

The most important statistical parameter is fact that we conceded 1812 points in 2022 compared to only 1501 points in the 2021 regular season.

And considering there was less injury impact on the availability of our 3 primary KPD's (i.e. Gardner) in '22 compared to '21, this suggests our Match Committee's preferred approach needs to change, because is isn't working.

Now you are making an argument against the game plan and strategy. That I can agree with. Gardner can only work within the system devised by the Coaching staff.

 

[Struggle]

He's going to get the Zac Dawson

Zac Dawson

Age

38

Ht

197cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.0

3star

K

3.4

1star

HB

6.6

4star

M

3.7

4star

T

1.5

3star

MG

34.4

1star

No current season stats available

D

8.0

2star

K

3.0

1star

HB

5.0

4star

M

1.8

2star

T

1.4

4star

treatment. The early games are burned into memories that even when they become a decent stopper, any mistake will bring flashbacks to the early failures.

His biggest issue now is the ground ball

 

[Proffessor]

Now you are making an argument against the game plan and strategy. That I can agree with. Gardner can only work within the system devised by the Coaching staff.

More specifically the defensive set up devised by the Coaching Staff, which Gardner has been a key part of this season. Gardner and the coaches seem to be well aligned but the results suggest this alignment isn't doing the team much good.

It is difficult to say how much of his play relates to his own personal skills and judgements and how much is the result of the direction he has been given, but whatever the primary cause it is obviously my opinion that the role he plays within our defence is a significant contributor to its present weaknesses. Weaknesses which clearly grew rather than shrank when Gardner essentially replaced Cordy in our set up for the majority of this year.

 

[Mofra]

Couldn't disagree more Mofra,

Suggesting people critical of Ryan are being influenced by his early form is just a convenient way to try and discredit their opinions without having to address their arguments.

The high% game time is a misleading stat as our other tall defenders tend to spend most of the game on the ground when they play a similar role. So is the inference that he was just is a mid season draftee from the VFL, ignoring the fact that was the second time he was drafted, after previously spending 3 years on Geelong's AFL list. And besides that mid-season draft was a long time ago in 2019.

Even the comment about 'getting to contests', is questionable. He gets to some contests but not to others, like any player. Just because he occasionally goes to some contests he might not be expected to (or even wanted to) doesn't mean he gets to contests that others couldn't. A lot of the time when he goes to 'help' out team mates in contests I sincerely wish he hadn't, and suspect that they often feel the same.
Besides if he supposedly he can get to more contests than other similar players why does he have so few contested possessions. A large number of his disposals are still racked up as we switch the ball across the ground while the opposition is pushing back.

It's actually a bit of an indictment for a bloke that entered the AFL system way back in 2015 that the best argument his supporters can currently muster against criticism essentially translates as 'Yeah he was crap at the start but he's not that bad now, and he might still improve a bit more'. He has already been in the AFL system for more than twice the length of the average AFL career. There needs to be a better reason to justify such extra-patient treatment.

I don't think there is anything that he could do from this point onwards that would change your opinion of him.

Many of the things you're said about him are plain wrong, have been pointed out as wrong, yet here you continue with the same points (e.g. TOG - it's high compared to players of any position, not just KPDs, but you've dismissed it above).

 

[Mofra]

The most important statistical parameter is the fact that we conceded 1812 points in 2022 compared to only 1501 points in the 2021 regular season.

And considering there was less injury impact on the availability of our 3 primary KPD's (i.e. Gardner) in '22 compared to '21, this suggests our Match Committee's preferred approach needs to change, because is isn't working.

The 2021 regular season was in the top 4 seasons we've had since 1925.
How that somehow translates into an argument against Gardner's output is an incredible piece of mental gymnastics.

 

[Here we go dogs]

This is the otherside of the argument that the people that complain about the criticism of Gardner don’t recognise

“Curnow kicked 5 on him but they were all lucky” “Hey he might have had 12 kicked on him but tbf there was an insect that got in his eye”

Gardner was soundly beaten on plenty of occasions this year, was he our best performed tall defender? Yeah he probably was, has he improved sure, but * me people cannot admit that he can actually be faulted, and people can’t admit that he does actually do some good things too

He’s a solid defender, possibly ranked 30-40 in the league? Would any team have a worse ‘best key defender’? I’d be surprised.

That’s the truth of it, will he keep improving yes probably, do we need to improve on him absolutely, could
he fill a role alongside good defenders in a good defence? Sure he probably could

I am actually not following what you’re getting at. I like most people here am critical of Gardner when it is warranted.

I just called him a serviceable and a reliable footballer, I didn’t suggest he was a world beater.

I really don’t think he was convincingly beaten by anyone other than Buddy at the SCG.

I also have no doubt that we can win a premiership with a serviceable/reliable defender like Gardner. We did it with Fletch Roberts and Joel Hamling. Gardner is better than both.

 

[cecil]

More specifically the defensive set up devised by the Coaching Staff, which Gardner has been a key part of this season. Gardner and the coaches seem to be well aligned but the results suggest this alignment isn't doing the team much good.

It is difficult to say how much of his play relates to his own personal skills and judgements and how much is the result of the direction he has been given, but whatever the primary cause it is obviously my opinion that the role he plays within our defence is a significant contributor to its present weaknesses. Weaknesses which clearly grew rather than shrank when Gardner essentially replaced Cordy in our set up for the majority of this year.

Are you actually Brian Cordy? I've never seen someone dial into a player and how they should be out of the team in favour of another as much as you do with Gardner and Cordy.

 

[Dazb86]

Stardner is our best tall defender.

 

[Proffessor]

I am actually not following what you’re getting at. I like most people here am critical of Gardner when it is warranted.

I just called him a serviceable and a reliable footballer, I didn’t suggest he was a world beater.

I really don’t think he was convincingly beaten by anyone other than Buddy at the SCG.

I also have no doubt that we can win a premiership with a serviceable/reliable defender like Gardner. We did it with Fletch Roberts and Joel Hamling. Gardner is better than both.

In what way is Ryan Gardner better than Fletcher Roberts and Joel Hamling?

Both of those players were way above Ryan’s current level, which is why they have premiership medallions.

There is more to football than being tall and physically fit.

 

[Foxman98]

In what way is Ryan Gardner better than Fletcher Roberts and Joel Hamling?

Both of those players were way above Ryan’s current level, which is why they have premiership medallions.

There is more to football than being tall and physically fit.

You’re not seriously saying Fletch was better then Gards is now right?

 

[Boof09]

Not sure how closely you’re watching.

Against Geelong, Gardiner played on Hawkins. Hawkins didn’t do much (might of kicked 1 or 2). Cameron kicked 6 on Keath.

Against Fremantle, Lobb kicked his 4 on Cordy. Cordy was terrible that day.

Against Carlton, Curnow kicked 5 which were either opportunistic snaps or dubious free kicks. McKay was better than Curnow that game, he took Keath to the cleaners with his contested marking in the 1st half.

Gardner was our best performing key backman this year by streets and rarely got beaten despite poor defensive structure.

He is a serviceable footballer that will continue to improve. I have no issue with him being a staple of the defende for the next 5 or so years. Need to get some better support around him.

How about every time he goes on the lead he gets beaten, generally because he drops off and lets his man go, the Freo game was a classic example on a kid playing his 2nd game. He is just serviceable at times but clearly the MC love him punching no matter what is happening in every contest that he gets to.
I think the problem with him finishing 7th in the B & F says more about the club/coaches and what they believe are good structures than it does that Gardner is a good player. We were horrendous most weeks defensively against tall forwards, and he matches up on them at some time or another in our "defensive structures". The only way he becomes a good defender in the way the game is currently played is to start winning the ball back and taking marks, did it a couple of times late in the season but still makes some terrible mistakes for someone who has been in the AFL system for 7 or 8 years.

 

[Here we go dogs]

I think the problem with him finishing 7th in the B & F says more about the club/coaches and what they believe are good structures than it does that Gardner is a good player. We were horrendous most weeks defensively against tall forwards, and he matches up on them at some time or another in our "defensive structures". The only way he becomes a good defender in the way the game is currently played is to start winning the ball back and taking marks, did it a couple of times late in the season but still makes some terrible mistakes for someone who has been in the AFL system for 7 or 8 years.

Cordy got towelled up by Neil Erasmus. That wasn’t Gardner.

Gardner started going for more marks in the second half of the year. And I am okay with him playing within his limitations and spoiling more often than not. We need other players around him to intercept. Gardners job if his playing as no.1 or no.2 back is to nullify his opposition number (which he did well).

Dale Morris did not intercept mark much and he would be regarded in our top 10 backman (possibly top 5) of all time.

 

[Here we go dogs]

In what way is Ryan Gardner better than Fletcher Roberts and Joel Hamling?

Both of those players were way above Ryan’s current level, which is why they have premiership medallions.

There is more to football than being tall and physically fit.

Ryan Gardner is a far better footballer than fletcher roberts and Joel hamling (the bulldog version at least).

Gardner is better 1 on 1 and had a more complete year in 2022 than either Roberts or Hamling did at the doggies (Hamling was better at Freo).

If a premiership medallion is how you judge a player I guess Cordy is a better chf than naughton?

 

[Nat Fyfe]

In what way is Ryan Gardner better than Fletcher Roberts and Joel Hamling?

Both of those players were way above Ryan’s current level, which is why they have premiership medallions.

There is more to football than being tall and physically fit.

Roberts and Hamling played alongside Dale Morris (who towelled up Buddy) and Matthew Boyd. Bit of a difference in personnel that allowed Hamling and Roberts to be role players instead of essentially head up the defence like Gardner is forced to currently. Player vs player, he's better than both

 

[BEaston]

For Ryan's sake and our team's, I hope there is some level of interest in him from another club during trade week. He might even fit in well with another team's defensive unit, e.g. a Gold Coast or a North Melbourne.

Given his strong showing in the B&F voting there is clear support for what he was doing within the match committee. However it simply didn't translate to good results for the team. The defence performed much better last year with him out injured for most of the season.

His effort is unquestionable, and he also sounds like a nice likeable bloke (kudos to him for helping Zaine on Mad Monday) but I still say he would be an absolute nightmare for our other defenders to play with out on the field, and his style of play is clearly not significantly helping our defence which was awfully ineffective this year. I don't believe anyone honestly want's to play with a guy that will crash over the top of them with an attempted spoil at almost every opportunity.

It's hard enough for our forwards with the way Naughton plays, but that is different because he takes marks, kicks goals, plus a bit of chaos isn't a bad thing to create within your own forward line.

We are obviously getting Liam Jones

19

Liam Jones

Age

33

Ht

199cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.4

2star

K

6.5

3star

HB

2.9

3star

M

4.3

4star

T

2.0

4star

MG

134.5

2star

D

7.6

2star

K

6.1

3star

HB

1.4

1star

M

4.1

4star

T

1.4

2star

MG

116.3

2star

D

9.4

3star

K

7.4

3star

HB

2.0

2star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.2

4star

back, and Sam Darcy also seems like a good chance to play in defence next year, but having Gardner trying to spoil the ball at every opportunity is likely to hinder these high marking defenders rather than help them.

If Gardner is still going to play as a regular part of our defensive unit, then I would be doubtful that getting in guys May and Lever would make much of a difference for us.

You're right. It's everyone else that's wrong.