Sack Ross Lyon

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raffrox

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#76
Going on stats, Freo got monstered today in the midfield (similar to last week against Collingwood).
Not so much in the first half, but certainly in the second.
With Neale gone, Fyfe & Blakely out, RTB needed players who can win a contested possession in the middle. If you can't understand why Walters or Hogan spent time in the middle instead of a light weighted 19 year old Cerra then I'm not surprised you are here yelling sack the coach.
Freo and Lyon have had a shocking run with injuries for several years now.
When Freo fields a team of youth, they generally get touched up, especially in the latter quarters.

So, with key players out, against Collingwood, last years runner up premiers, Freo were in the game until less than 10 minutes remaining.
Against West Coast, the premiers, again with key players out, Freo were in the game at half time.
If your coaching and game plans are that bad, why would Freo be competitive with the best teams in the competition until late in the game?

Sometimes, if you can put emotions aside and take a more objective look, you can find reasonable explanations for losses.
Maybe another coach may do better than RTB, but I could view that option more favourably if I saw haters giving good valid reasons for their criticisms, instead of just bringing out the torches and pitch forks every time Freo supporters are dealing with the emotions of a Freo loss.
You do realise that us 'haters' don't have to prove ourselves right. Ross has to prove us wrong.

We have had three seasons at the foot of the ladder. Reasonable explanations after 4 years become excuses and we're a no excuses football team (?) There must be a decent amount of improvement in the win-loss and percentage columns this year or he's gawn.

Them's the facts.
 

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Tayl0r

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Why are we recruiting players who can't kick.
I don't think the source pool of talent is big enough to supply the entire competition with elite kicking players for a running game like AFL.

I think the elite kicking runners who know where to be are taken in the top five. The ones with speed aren't there past pick #3. Most of the contested ball winners don't use it that well, a lot of taller and heavier guys can't get around the ground as well, some guys can kick really well but don't know where to be to use it, some guys can mark but not kick at goal, some guys can kick at goal but can't mark. Every player in the draft is like rolling ten dice in a row, each block of draft picks removes some dice and you're trying to get the highest number at the end of all the rolls.

Every team is patching together a race car with different sized wheels and different coloured doors.
 

E Shed

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#78
So, with key players out, against Collingwood, last years runner up premiers, Freo were in the game until less than 10 minutes remaining.
Against West Coast, the premiers, again with key players out, Freo were in the game at half time.
If your coaching and game plans are that bad, why would Freo be competitive with the best teams in the competition until late in the game?
Because we play a game plan that is effort based. Lyon is excellent at motivating players to go hard and his plan has since St Kilda days, go harder at the start and monster the other team and then back off and cruise and protect your lead. I remember watching Saints get 50-60 points up by half time and then just slow the game down in the second half and chip it around. Freo reached the pinnacle of this in 2013 when we destroyed Sydney in the semi final at Subi by half time.
How many times back then would we see the scoreline go our way in the first half and the other way in the second?

Some coaches though have a style that is Kryptonite to this eg Hawthorn, flicking the ball around quickly and accurately to draw in the tackler & open space to move the ball past the zone.

Now days we are so poor at converting inside 50 entries and other teams are so good at intercept and rebound footy the opposition have just learned if you weather the storm against Freo and congest our forward 50 and score on the rebound we are easy meat.
We match well with the likes of Collingwood who go man on man a lot. The Eagles, Hawthorn, Brisbane forget it. They'll kill us ever time.
 

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We have had three seasons at the foot of the ladder. Reasonable explanations after 4 years become excuses and we're a no excuses football team (?) There must be a decent amount of improvement in the win-loss and percentage columns this year or he's gawn.
What rebuilds built the context of this position?
 

raffrox

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#80
What rebuilds built the context of this position?
As much as I love the circle work over the last two years I don't think anything I say will convince you. There are examples if you want to go look. That's why I made the statement that the days of the 'haters' having to prove anything are very quickly diminishing. Ross needs to get results or he's done.

I don't have to argue that and I find it hard that you can dispute that. Can you?
 

beetz

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#81
Yep, I'm on board. Game has passed him. I have no doubts Peter Bell sees it too.

Need a young coach (Caracella-type) with some offensive flare. Someone who's on the same level as our younger players especially and can utilise everyone to their potential. Not have Hogan floating across the back line, Cerra sitting in a back pocket, Sturt being groomed as half back flanker etc....

#SACKROSS
 

eastfreo75

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#82
You do realise that us 'haters' don't have to prove ourselves right. Ross has to prove us wrong.

We have had three seasons at the foot of the ladder. Reasonable explanations after 4 years become excuses and we're a no excuses football team (?) There must be a decent amount of improvement in the win-loss and percentage columns this year or he's gawn.

Them's the facts.
I agree.

Hate or love has nothing to do to it.

If we are in the bottom 6 this year, it's time to move Lyon on.

It's about results not feelings.
 

Tayl0r

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As much as I love the circle work over the last two years I don't think anything I say will convince you. There are examples if you want to go look. That's why I made the statement that the days of the 'haters' having to prove anything are very quickly diminishing. Ross needs to get results or he's done.

I don't have to argue that and I find it hard that you can dispute that. Can you?
All I was asking of you was by which standard of a rebuild you determine that three years is adequate time to rebound from? I'm not taking a stand on Lyon one way or another, his results will make or break him, I'm curious as to what standard a rebuild is being measured by.

St Kilda, Brisbane, Carlton, Melbourne, Gold Coast have all done it. Why does our last three years constitute irrefutable weight that we are to bounce back or it's a failure?

I'm trying to understand where the opinion comes from.
 

raffrox

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#84
All I was asking of you was by which standard of a rebuild you determine that three years is adequate time to rebound from?
I know what you're asking and if there's not significant progress indicated this season it will be four seasons and that is long enough thank you very much. That's my 'standard'. Hardly an outlandish one.

So now my question?

If Ross does not get a significant improvement in wins and percentage this year is he done?

I'll even put figures on it for you. At least 10 wins, at least 90% percentage. That's hardly world beating stuff as it is.
 

Tayl0r

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Moderator #85
I know what you're asking and if there's not significant progress indicated this season it will be four seasons and that is long enough thank you very much. That's my 'standard'. Hardly an outlandish one.

So now my question?

If Ross does not get a significant improvement in wins and percentage this year is he done?

I'll even put figures on it for you. At least 10 wins, at least 90% percentage. That's hardly world beating stuff as it is.
Ten wins is two more wins than we have had each of the the last two seasons, I think that's a reasonable target.

I'd expect our trajectory to have a season where we are very good at home but can't win away except against the sides that are on the bottom and that would get us to ten wins.
 

Admiral Byng

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#86
Agree on the Lyon game plan always being effort based. No matter the words he says about being more attacking it is no more than tinkering around the edges with the core plan being unchanged.

Under Ross Lyon we have never had a plan for working the ball through contested space. It has always been the default option to kick long and force a marking contest, bring the ball to ground and then try and win the contested ball. Good teams now avoid doing that, what they do is kick to moving targets. Our players don't move up and demand the ball, they gather to where the long kick is going to go to and prepare to fight for the ball at ground level. This happens all over the ground, not just in our forward 50.

We need a radical shift, not tinkering. We need to go from expecting and creating contested ball situations to actively avoiding them whenever we can. It is about keeping control of the ball. It's about players leading intelligently into space, it's about skills, it's about quick decision making, it's about kicking to advantage and not just in the general direction, it's about keeping the defence moving and not letting them set up. All of this stuff we don't do - it's just kick it long and try to win the next contest.
 

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raffrox

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#87
All I was asking of you was by which standard of a rebuild you determine that three years is adequate time to rebound from? I'm not taking a stand on Lyon one way or another, his results will make or break him, I'm curious as to what standard a rebuild is being measured by.

St Kilda, Brisbane, Carlton, Melbourne, Gold Coast have all done it. Why does our last three years constitute irrefutable weight that we are to bounce back or it's a failure?

I'm trying to understand where the opinion comes from.
Gold Coast will be lucky if it exists in a few years. Why are they a reference point?
Carlton symbolise failure currently in most aspects of their footy club. Why are they a reference point?
St Kilda? Brisbane? More to aspire to.

Melbourne? Well they got a decent coach and turned it around in less than three years from there. Great example.

I'm trying to understand you point of view. Are you saying that because there's other crap teams we should be comfortable with crap?

By the established metric (win-loss) for the industry we would be close to being out of business if we performed like this in any other industry. Just because others are as bad or worse shouldn't be a comfy blanket for us.

Clearly others are doing better and why the hell shouldn't we aspire to that? If we change players, footy managers, assistants, location of our training facility and we are still below average why does Ross get a free ride?
 

Tayl0r

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Moderator #88
Gold Coast will be lucky if it exists in a few years. Why are they a reference point?
Carlton symbolise failure currently in most aspects of their footy club. Why are they a reference point?
St Kilda? Brisbane? More to aspire to.

Melbourne? Well they got a decent coach and turned it around in less than three years from there. Great example.

I'm trying to understand you point of view. Are you saying that because there's other crap teams we should be comfortable with crap?

By the established metric (win-loss) for the industry we would be close to being out of business if we performed like this in any other industry. Just because others are as bad or worse shouldn't be a comfy blanket for us.

Clearly others are doing better and why the hell shouldn't we aspire to that? If we change players, footy managers, assistants, location of our training facility and we are still below average why does Ross get a free ride?
Every team could be as good as Richmond, with our facilities and there will still be a side that finished 18th at the end of the year.

The point I'm making by asking by what measure has our rebuild been on long enough is that the AFL is full of examples of clubs trying to do it and taking longer - so why are we expecting results faster, what makes our squad different, what makes our players experienced more efficiently?

I don't know how long it actually takes to build a side, even with all best players available to them GWS took how many years to become considered a good side? We don't have those players but we also haven't had those terrible seasons they did. We've won a third of our games the last two years, four more wins and we could play finals. I don't think we are that far off but if that is considered basement bad then improvement is going to need to be massive to be recognised because it can get so much worse.

I think it's the comparison between Fremantle and West Coast that makes it seem worse than it is when the reality of AFL football is that there are clubs we are in arguably better position than now who have been rebuilding before us and will be after us.

But, I would also think we will have quite a few applications to coach the side now that there are three poor years in the can and young talent is signed up. That new coach could come in, change nothing and through our young rucks getting better, our young mids getting better and our forwards getting out of each other's way suddenly we look great - that coach will be a savior and even if they aren't the sort that could win a flag they will be signed up for four years.

I don't expect a cake to be baked in five minutes.
 

go_the_dockers

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#89
I don't think the source pool of talent is big enough to supply the entire competition with elite kicking players for a running game like AFL.

I think the elite kicking runners who know where to be are taken in the top five. The ones with speed aren't there past pick #3. Most of the contested ball winners don't use it that well, a lot of taller and heavier guys can't get around the ground as well, some guys can kick really well but don't know where to be to use it, some guys can mark but not kick at goal, some guys can kick at goal but can't mark. Every player in the draft is like rolling ten dice in a row, each block of draft picks removes some dice and you're trying to get the highest number at the end of all the rolls.

Every team is patching together a race car with different sized wheels and different coloured doors.
Will Rioli was a big miss.

I feel the eagles have 4 or 5 clean natural forwards, when we have Walters.
 

raffrox

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#90
Every team could be as good as Richmond, with our facilities and there will still be a side that finished 18th at the end of the year.

The point I'm making by asking by what measure has our rebuild been on long enough is that the AFL is full of examples of clubs trying to do it and taking longer - so why are we expecting results faster, what makes our squad different, what makes our players experienced more efficiently?

I don't know how long it actually takes to build a side, even with all best players available to them GWS took how many years to become considered a good side? We don't have those players but we also haven't had those terrible seasons they did. We've won a third of our games the last two years, four more wins and we could play finals. I don't think we are that far off but if that is considered basement bad then improvement is going to need to be massive to be recognised because it can get so much worse.

I think it's the comparison between Fremantle and West Coast that makes it seem worse than it is when the reality of AFL football is that there are clubs we are in arguably better position than now who have been rebuilding before us and will be after us.

But, I would also think we will have quite a few applications to coach the side now that there are three poor years in the can and young talent is signed up. That new coach could come in, change nothing and through our young rucks getting better, our young mids getting better and our forwards getting out of each other's way suddenly we look great - that coach will be a savior and even if they aren't the sort that could win a flag they will be signed up for four years.

I don't expect a cake to be baked in five minutes.
What about four years?

Saying that one team has to finish 18th just blows my mind. Completely. Saying that a new coach would do nothing and get results is a bit the same as well.

News flash! Better run team ends up being more successful than poorly run team.

There's no chance, no cycles, no luck in that. We shouldn't expect that 'time' will just make us better as a team.

The only thing that time is going to show is that Ross' time is over. I'd be delighted if I'm wrong by the way.
 

Tayl0r

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Moderator #91
What about four years?

Saying that one team has to finish 18th just blows my mind. Completely. Saying that a new coach would do nothing and get results is a bit the same as well.

News flash! Better run team ends up being more successful than poorly run team.

There's no chance, no cycles, no luck in that. We shouldn't expect that 'time' will just make us better as a team.

The only thing that time is going to show is that Ross' time is over. I'd be delighted if I'm wrong by the way.
You might not be wrong at all but injecting talented teenagers into a team has a lag on returns, in the meantime we perform worse.
 

Cesoir

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#92
What about four years?

Saying that one team has to finish 18th just blows my mind. Completely. Saying that a new coach would do nothing and get results is a bit the same as well.

News flash! Better run team ends up being more successful than poorly run team.

There's no chance, no cycles, no luck in that. We shouldn't expect that 'time' will just make us better as a team.

The only thing that time is going to show is that Ross' time is over. I'd be delighted if I'm wrong by the way.
Am I missing something? In an 18 team competition that would seem... logical.
 
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#97
You might not be wrong at all but injecting talented teenagers into a team has a lag on returns, in the meantime we perform worse.
What talented 18yr olds? do we have more talented 18 yr olds than other teams? I don't think so. Carlton, GC, Bulldogs and have so much more upside than us atm it's not funny.

All we have is Cerra and Brayshaw as possible A graders. Walters and Fyfe will be gone when they're hitting their straps.

Where is our the next generation of quality players? ATM this rebuild looks like a 10 year one.
 

A Cut Above

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#98
Pardon the intrusion.

I genuinely don't understand why you would want a man like Ross Lyon coaching your football club when the game style he peddles is nothing short of putrid. Ross Lyon's teams have always been the absolute worst in the AFL to watch without exception and he has shown little signs of changing. Nevermind that Ross has had Freo treading water in no-man's land for about three years, I simply can't see why you'd want to voluntarily condemn yourselves to supporting a coach who will with 100% certainty render your football team absolutely horrid to watch, regardless of what level of success he achieves with it.

Most non-St.Kilda/Freo fans realized long ago Ross Lyon is a football fraud and a blatant charlatan. To their credit, some Freo fans have also woken up to this while others tragically remain under his spell. It is absolutely no coincidence the two clubs Ross has preyed on have not won Premierships in the lifetimes of most of their supporters, as he is essentially a con-artist who feeds off the desperation of his victims and in St.Kilda & Freo found two perfect saps for his con.

Why even bother going to the trouble of recruiting Hogan & Lobb when Ross Lyon's shambolic & outdated gameplan will never get the best out of them? If you think Ross coached a team containing Riewoldt, Kozi & Milne that struggled to score but will magically reverse the constant trend of his entire coaching career and suddenly have Hogan kicking 70 goals a year then I really don't know what to tell you, other than to say you probably deserve to watch the miserable spectacles Ross is sure to provide you.
He is a one-trick pony who's only trick is to convince his players to outwork the opposition and play every game at finals intensity, something that can never be sustained over four full quarters or the entirety of an AFL season which is why his teams always play like crap in the finals, because they're outta juice by that stage while opposition's pressure ramps up in September, nullifying Lyon's one trick advantage. Nor for that matter does Ross still retain his pressure king title, a baton that has long since passed to Hardwick & Richmond.

Please do yourselves a massive favor and kick this stupendously overrated coach and ordinary human being to the curb where he belongs. Football will be infinitely better off without him, and you'll taste your first genuine breath of excitement for your team's prospect in years. You don't deserve to suffer under Ross Lyon and you don't have to.
 

Quokka

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#99
Pardon the intrusion.

I genuinely don't understand why you would want a man like Ross Lyon coaching your football club when the game style he peddles is nothing short of putrid. Ross Lyon's teams have always been the absolute worst in the AFL to watch without exception and he has shown little signs of changing. Nevermind that Ross has had Freo treading water in no-man's land for about three years, I simply can't see why you'd want to voluntarily condemn yourselves to supporting a coach who will with 100% certainty render your football team absolutely horrid to watch, regardless of what level of success he achieves with it.

Most non-St.Kilda/Freo fans realized long ago Ross Lyon is a football fraud and a blatant charlatan. To their credit, some Freo fans have also woken up to this while others tragically remain under his spell. It is absolutely no coincidence the two clubs Ross has preyed on have not won Premierships in the lifetimes of most of their supporters, as he is essentially a con-artist who feeds off the desperation of his victims and in St.Kilda & Freo found two perfect saps for his con.

Why even bother going to the trouble of recruiting Hogan & Lobb when Ross Lyon's shambolic & outdated gameplan will never get the best out of them? If you think Ross coached a team containing Riewoldt, Kozi & Milne that struggled to score but will magically reverse the constant trend of his entire coaching career and suddenly have Hogan kicking 70 goals a year then I really don't know what to tell you, other than to say you probably deserve to watch the miserable spectacles Ross is sure to provide you.
He is a one-trick pony who's only trick is to convince his players to outwork the opposition and play every game at finals intensity, something that can never be sustained over four full quarters or the entirety of an AFL season which is why his teams always play like crap in the finals, because they're outta juice by that stage while opposition's pressure ramps up in September, nullifying Lyon's one trick advantage. Nor for that matter does Ross still retain his pressure king title, a baton that has long since passed to Hardwick & Richmond.

Please do yourselves a massive favor and kick this stupendously overrated coach and ordinary human being to the curb where he belongs. Football will be infinitely better off without him, and you'll taste your first genuine breath of excitement for your team's prospect in years. You don't deserve to suffer under Ross Lyon and you don't have to.

I actually agree with a good few of your points although Lyon is still a professional sporting coach (the argument is about his limitations) and not some evil emperor. Either way the Saints have some pretty old fans and I don't believe you can hold Lyon accountable for their performances in the 70s and 80s.
 
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