Safe Schools or is it?

[DemonTim]

OKay I can see that there are a lot of studies with conflicting opinions.

What do you make of the NIH study that found that gays living in long term relationships in more inclusive societies (Denmark) are still 5x more likely to suicide, and the Australian Institute of Suicide Research and Prevention that found as familis become more accepting, psychological problems remain in gays with relationship problems being the leading cause?

I asked you for links to both, you refused.
I then went and found it myself but it's a paid piece.I asked if you paid for it since you were making claims of what it said, you didn't respond.

 

[pickswarehouse]

No that's just your warped perception. I've told you the message that they are portraying to kids is that "this is the way people are", and that I can't find anything to contradict that. So I have proved my point that they are teaching the philosophy I said subject to anything contradictory (which I couldn't find). So yes I might be "making it up" which is double speak for "I couldn't find anything", and I stand by my claim, they are teaching that the attractions that you get are "what you are".

[/QUOTE]
I've asked for your source of where that's being said, you never provided it. Now you're telling me to provide proof that's not what they said. That is called proving a negative.[/QUOTE]

Proving a negative is very easy, all you have to do is find one example.

They hang posters on the wall that people walk past every day that say this "some people like boys, some people like girls, some like both, k thanks". The role playing games are all about being either gay or straight, there are no games where someone is confused and not sure what they are. Can you find anything that teaches kids that some people get attractions that don't mean anything, or is it all "you are gay or you are straight or you are bisexual"?

 

[DemonTim]

I've asked for your source of where that's being said, you never provided it. Now you're telling me to provide proof that's not what they said. That is called proving a negative.[/QUOTE]

Proving a negative is very easy, all you have to do is find one example.

They hang posters on the wall that people walk past every day that say this "some people like boys, some people like girls, some like both, k thanks". The role playing games are all about being either gay or straight, there are no games where someone is confused and not sure what they are. Can you find anything that teaches kids that some people get attractions that don't mean anything, or is it all "you are gay or you are straight or you are bisexual"?[/QUOTE]
Well no, proving a negative is not something that happens, it's a shift on the burden of proof, a logical fallacy.

The poster that safe schools use is:
http://www.safeschoolshub.edu.au/common/downloads/All-Of-Us-Classroom-Poster.pdf
http://www.safeschoolshub.edu.au/common/downloads/idahot-poster_2016.pdf
http://www.safeschoolshub.edu.au/common/downloads/Change-is-Coming-poster_2014.pdf
Can you provide a source for your posters? (Although i'm unsure of the issue, they've literally stated all of the available attraction options. What do you want the poster to say?)

Directly from the safe schools student hand out "There are lots of different components that make up your sexuality. You can be attracted to a whole spectrum of masculinity, femininity, both or even none. Your feelings, behaviours and identity aren't always the same."
Pretty clearly states what you're asking.

There you go, even though you require people to prove negatives, it's right there

You've still yet to provide even one source, for someone who has provided absolutely 0 evidence in this thread, you sure are demanding.

 

[pickswarehouse]

http://www.livingisforeveryone.com.au/life-news-issue-7.html
Men are four times more likely to die from suicide than women; rates are highest in the 25 to 44-year-old males and in elderly men. The rates are escalating in Aboriginal young men: in the age group of 15 to 24 years suicide is the second commonest cause of death and in the age group of 25 to 44 years suicide is the commonest cause of death.

How the f*ck can anyone hold any reasonable discussion on this when there are so many different f*cking studies that show so many different things?

 

[Maggie5]

Not once did I say Safe Schools taught my 6 year old. All I've ever said is what my 6 year old was taught at school.

DemonTim , did you not see this? Not sure what the discussion is about anymore.

 

[DemonTim]

http://www.livingisforeveryone.com.au/life-news-issue-7.html
Men are four times more likely to die from suicide than women; rates are highest in the 25 to 44-year-old males and in elderly men. The rates are escalating in Aboriginal young men: in the age group of 15 to 24 years suicide is the second commonest cause of death and in the age group of 25 to 44 years suicide is the commonest cause of death.

How the f*ck can anyone hold any reasonable discussion on this when there are so many different f*cking studies that show so many different things?

Huh? what is that showing that is different?

 

[DemonTim]

DemonTim , did you not see this? Not sure what the discussion is about anymore.

It wasn't about safe schools to start, and it isn't now. Some people just feel the need to argue, even about something as simple as "You're discussing homosexuality and if it's right or wrong, not safe schools, maybe start a new thread"

 

[pickswarehouse]

Directly from the safe schools student hand out "There are lots of different components that make up your sexuality. You can be attracted to a whole spectrum of masculinity, femininity, both or even none. Your feelings, behaviours and identity aren't always the same."
Pretty clearly states what you're asking.

No it doesn't because it says "it makes up your identity, and your identity can change", which is very clearly the philosophy I am against.

 

[pickswarehouse]

No it doesn't because it says "it makes up your identity, and your identity can change", which is very clearly the philosophy I am against.

Show me some research on how many people get same sex attraction as kids, and how many will end up identifying as straight.

We know that 3.5% end up identifying as straight. We know that the level getting same sex attraction is a lot higher. To say it is part of your identity, instead of the truth that it's a little phase that will pass for most of the population, is institutionalised psychological and sexual abuse (for those that will act on it).

 

[DemonTim]

No it doesn't because it says "it makes up your identity, and your identity can change", which is very clearly the philosophy I am against.

Sorry, where does it say that?

You've quoted me, and said it says something, when those words were never used

 

[pickswarehouse]

Huh? what is that showing that is different?

One of your links showed that women had significantly higher levels of depression than men. This one shows that men are 4x more likely to suicide than women.

 

[DemonTim]

Show me some research on how many people get same sex attraction as kids, and how many will end up identifying as straight.

We know that 3.5% end up identifying as straight. We know that the level getting same sex attraction is a lot higher. To say it is part of your identity, instead of the truth that it's a little phase that will pass for most of the population, is institutionalised psychological and sexual abuse (for those that will act on it).

Again, where does it say that? It pretty clearly says many components make up your sexuality.

So now you're back on safe schools and what they say, even though you said your son had nothing to do with safe schools.

 

[pickswarehouse]

Sorry, where does it say that?

You've quoted me, and said it says something, when those words were never used

Your feelings, behaviours and identity aren't always the same.

Are you saying that "your identity isn't always the same" is different to saying "your identity can change"?

 

[DemonTim]

One of your links showed that women had significantly higher levels of depression than men. This one shows that men are 4x more likely to suicide than women.

One is American, one is australian...surely that's not hard to understand...

 

[DemonTim]

Your feelings, behaviours and identity aren't always the same.

Are you saying that "your identity isn't always the same" is different to saying "your identity can change"?

Wait, so now you're saying your problem is that they're saying your identity can change?

 

[pickswarehouse]

One is American, one is australian...surely that's not hard to understand...

yes but either could be used, and one supports your argument and one supports mine.

 

[pickswarehouse]

Wait, so now you're saying your problem is that they're saying your identity can change?

yes, because all that does is show it's not really an identity, it's not really 'what you are'. And given that most people that change go from homo to hetero, I call it psychological abuse to teach children it is part of their identity and what they are.

 

[pickswarehouse]

yes, because all that does is show it's not really an identity, it's not really 'what you are'. And given that most people that change go from homo to hetero, I call it psychological abuse to teach children it is part of their identity and what they are.

and if they act on it because they think it's what they are, that becomes unwanted sex. Which could be described as sexual abuse.

 

[pickswarehouse]

if there were closer to an equal number of homos and heteros, and closer to an equal number who's thoughts, feelings and identity change, then I think that the teachings would have merit. But given the disparity, my logic leads to the conclusion that homsoexuality is more often than not a state of confusion, not a state of being. And to affirm it as a state of being should lead to those [edit] encouraging people affirming it being burned at the stake. Or at least kept the f*ck away from our children.

 

[DemonTim]

yes but either could be used, and one supports your argument and one supports mine.

What argument? You referenced African Americans as having lower rates, that's what the excerpt was for. Now you're using the female aspect.

yes, because all that does is show it's not really an identity, it's not really 'what you are'. And given that most people that change go from homo to hetero, I call it psychological abuse to teach children it is part of their identity and what they are.

So you're saying that most people change (from homo to hetero, which is false in itself), yet are claiming there's an issue with saying it can change... how does that show it's not an identity? Many aspects of people's identities change.

But, no, that is not at all sexual abuse.

if there were closer to an equal number of homos and heteros, and closer to an equal number who's thoughts, feelings and identity change, then I think that the teachings would have merit. But given the disparity, my logic leads to the conclusion that homsoexuality is more often than not a state of confusion, not a state of being. And to affirm it as a state of being should lead to those [edit] encouraging people affirming it being burned at the stake. Or at least kept the f*ck away from our children.

Wait so now you're trying to say that they're not actually gay, they're just confused?

Maggie5 can I tag you in? I'm losing patience and i'm about to burst his bubble of anonymity...

 

[DemonTim]

So now we get to the crux of it, pickswarehouse doesn't want children being told that homosexuality is an option, because he feels that's pushing them towards it, is that correct?

 

[pickswarehouse]

So now we get to the crux of it, pickswarehouse doesn't want children being told that homosexuality is an option, because he feels that's pushing them towards it, is that correct?

I think that's close to it.

Look you've quoted articles yourself that 37% of people have had a gay experience. You know that only 3.5% of the population end up identifying as gay. How do you possibly draw the conclusion that it is false to say that most people change from homo to hetero?

 

[DemonTim]

I think that's close to it.

Look you've quoted articles yourself that 37% of people have had a gay experience. You know that only 3.5% of the population end up identifying as gay. How do you possibly draw the conclusion that it is false to say that most people change from homo to hetero?

1. I quoted Kinseys study to you because you were saying figures on homosexuality were increasing (theyre lower than Kinseys levels)
2. Kinsey over estimated
3. 37% is not MOST
4. You're making the premise that having a gay experience makes you homosexual, and then identifying as straight post this makes you heterosexual. Which is false (Do you think you were homosexual for a time)
5. You're making a claim that identity can't change, but also making a claim that most people change from homo to hetero. They're mutually exclusive
6. Advising people that there is a choice, is not akin to forcing them into one option. By that logic, a multi-party voting system is forcing people to vote for a particular party
7. If your premise was correct, then reparative therapy would work (Companies using it acknowledge it doesn't)
8. Saying that homosexuality is an option, is about as forceful as saying the same of heterosexuality, are you saying that by telling kids that they can be straight, we are forcing them to be straight?
9. Not giving children an option IS the only example of pushing them towards one sexuality

Australian stats put homosexuality at 1.7%, where are you getting 3.5? (Not holding my breath on this, i'm still waiting for your stats on how more and more people are turning gay)

 

[Maggie5]

What argument? You referenced African Americans as having lower rates, that's what the excerpt was for. Now you're using the female aspect.


So you're saying that most people change (from homo to hetero, which is false in itself), yet are claiming there's an issue with saying it can change... how does that show it's not an identity? Many aspects of people's identities change.

But, no, that is not at all sexual abuse.


Wait so now you're trying to say that they're not actually gay, they're just confused?

Maggie5 can I tag you in? I'm losing patience and i'm about to burst his bubble of anonymity...

You are a saint, I would have given up pages before. Reincarnate?

 

[Ruck Machine]

Watch This. A more than reasonable counter argument to Safe Schools.