Saga should be over soon.

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fabulousphil said:
What exactly is the issue and what was the ultimatum ?.

I see plenty of people abusing others constantly, in fact I see plenty of posters abusing yourself and Bobby Charlton amongst others, have they been given ultimatums or told to clean up their posting style ?.
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I am happy to accede to the requests, and perhaps "ultimatum" is too strong word, but never mind, I have already earned my first ever "like" from Wookie, which means I have announced myself as a serious and accepted poster within the community.
 
Clems Knee said:
I've looked for public comments by Fitzpatrick, and apart from support of ASADA, the organisation and the process, he appears to have said very little. He specifically didn't guarantee that 2015 would not be affected.



I think that is likely that Fitzpatrick didn't say anything of the sort. We are just repeating or expanding on something mentioned by a journo, perhaps.
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A quick Google found this:

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/essendon-penalties-sufficient-says-afl-20140616-zs9se.html

I seem to recall him making other comments but that may have been in a speech or he may have been addressing the club presidents...my memory is a little hazy
 
imperial_oz said:
A quick Google found this:

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/essendon-penalties-sufficient-says-afl-20140616-zs9se.html

I seem to recall him making other comments but that may have been in a speech or he may have been addressing the club presidents...my memory is a little hazy
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Good get.

"However, commission chairman Mike Fitzpatrick said after a meeting on Monday that the saga had gone on too long, and that the league had already dealt with the club, having fined it, stripped it of draft picks and suspended Hird for 12 months. "

He could also have added missing out on a finals game, which is a pretty hefty team-based punishment.
 

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The GG said:
Good get.

"However, commission chairman Mike Fitzpatrick said after a meeting on Monday that the saga had gone on too long, and that the league had already dealt with the club, having fined it, stripped it of draft picks and suspended Hird for 12 months. "

He could also have added missing out on a finals game, which is a pretty hefty team-based punishment.
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That's before the commission got annoyed with them with challenging the legality of the investigation and then with Hird appealing the verdict. He may have changed his mind, at his discretion of course!
 
Ancient Tiger said:
That's before the commission got annoyed with them with challenging the legality of the investigation and then with Hird appealing the verdict. He may have changed his mind, at his discretion of course!
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There are other articles floating around soon after this date where Fitzpatrick supports the right of the club to exercise its legal rights (which I found surprising).
 
imperial_oz said:
A quick Google found this:

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/essendon-penalties-sufficient-says-afl-20140616-zs9se.html

I seem to recall him making other comments but that may have been in a speech or he may have been addressing the club presidents...my memory is a little hazy
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Thank you. I just found the same article after trawling through to page 11 of the HTB.
But the author of the article Jon Pierik seems to be drawing a very long bow, considering the quote was in reference to the fact that Essendon and Hird were filing injunctions against ASADA, and therefore delaying the process.

Fitzpatrick said:

"I am extremely disappointed that the players are in this position. The AFL last year took strong and timely action against the club and three individuals at the club, and those individuals and the club accepted the penalties," said Fitzpatrick after the commissioners were briefed by AFL legal counsel Andrew Dillon.

"We support the role of the AFLPA in offering independent legal counsel for the players, and will continue to be in contact with the players' association where appropriate. I also note again that from the outset of the investigation, the players have fully co-operated with all requests and inquiries made of them."

As well as that Gillon said
"We think we're well prepared for where we are now, and we're confident that all scenarios are covered," he said.

In other words, bans for Essendon are still on the table.
 
Clems Knee said:
Thank you. I just found the same article after trawling through to page 11 of the HTB.
But the author of the article Jon Pierik seems to be drawing a very long bow, considering the quote was in reference to the fact that Essendon and Hird were filing injunctions against ASADA, and therefore delaying the process.

Fitzpatrick said:

"I am extremely disappointed that the players are in this position. The AFL last year took strong and timely action against the club and three individuals at the club, and those individuals and the club accepted the penalties," said Fitzpatrick after the commissioners were briefed by AFL legal counsel Andrew Dillon.

"We support the role of the AFLPA in offering independent legal counsel for the players, and will continue to be in contact with the players' association where appropriate. I also note again that from the outset of the investigation, the players have fully co-operated with all requests and inquiries made of them."

As well as that Gillon said
"We think we're well prepared for where we are now, and we're confident that all scenarios are covered," he said.

In other words, bans for Essendon are still on the table.
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Thats distinctly possible.

I do remember hearing him being reported as saying the Commission had no desire to level more sanctions on the club. That isn't the same as saying that the Commission will not level more sanctions. Especially so after the other club presidents indicated a fair bit of shall we say 'unhappiness' with Essendon. That was around about the time that Little moderated his previously hostile stand on matters. That may be a coincidence or it may have been influenced by Fitzpatrick conveying mnessages from the club president's meeting. If I recall correctly some presidents wanted particular issues discussed but Fitzpatrick refused to allow those discussions to proceed but on the understanding that issues were raised with Essendon.

I've probably got that a bit mixed up but after a long day in the sun and being 3 parts knackered, its the best you're getting from me tonight
 
Ancient Tiger said:
I'm not saying you are wrong, but that is a very interesting conspiracy theory. I know anything is possible but having the AFL trying to falsely accuse a big club by putting in confusing evidence, would just hurt itself more. Add the fact that Vlad and his whole family are strong bomber supporters and that he tried to assist them by tipping them off goes against some of what you are saying.
I think you are conveniently ignoring the other possibility. This is that the AFL knew more about what had been happening at Essendon than the club realized. We have clues that this is the case with Vlad warning Hird to stay away from peptides in 2011. They may have been aware that Dank was delving into stronger S2 drugs such as GHRP 2&6. He certainly had a history of using them elsewhere. This goes in keeping with my own experience and what I had heard at the time (March 2012) and still have an email from that time stating that Dank himself stated that these peptides were being administered to Essendon. The person he told this to has testified under oath to ASADA.
So the AFL knowing what they did and knowing there may be a very difficult situation unfolding with the ACC and ASADA tried to manufacture a soft landing for Essendon. This is where things were headed with Evans and Vlad. But Hird did not want to go and things went haywire forcing Evans to resign and the whole manufactured ending was destroyed. Part of the problem is ASADA know about other S2 drugs but their paper trail was well and truly destroyed. Their only hope was "thymosin" and there was some evidence coupled with the consents that they pinned their case on. I actually doubt they have enough to convict. But that doesn't mean they are innocent.
So there you go. One theory can be easily be replaced with another!
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They did this precisely because they thought Dank was delving into really serious doping at Essendon. As I said in me rumours board thread there was a lot of talk going around that Essendon had used HGH, and with 20-20 hind sight that is now obviously coming from Carlton conditioning coaches taping Alavi. The other part of my rumour was that Robinson was being investigated by the police. Well I had never heard of Dank at that stage so it's clear that Dank was the guy that was being investigated by the ACC.

While the ACC obviously didn't say "Andrew it is Essendon we're investigating" Demetriou would have known of all the rumours swirling around Essendon, in fact they're trying to say that Hird had brought up peptide with Clothier already.

Anyway its been reported in a number of places that Gil told Hird up front that they didn't believe him and that Essendon was doping. The AFL thought by creating that controversy they were going to distract the public from real doping and that ASADA would sweep it under the carpet with a deal.
 
The GG said:
No there is no story to tell, Wookie merely emphasised what many people had said before him that they found my writing style ultra annoying and were refusing to engage me.

Now there are some within the community where it does not worry me that they do not wish to engage with me, it's an absolute blessing to be honest.

But for Wookie to say that he no longer wished to engage with me in a meaningful way, well it just drove the message home, and I had to take ALHLAM
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GG, your problem maybe this:

When I first heard about this scandal I didn't believe it. Didn't know much about it, and I thought Hird was a pretty straight individual and admired him as a footballer.. I had no bias against Essendon.

The way Essendon acted I got very suspicious very quick. I never thought Bomber had anything to do with it. Then I thought he might. There was a flood of information. I thought the players were duped. Then I wasn't sure. Then I felt sorry for them and hoped there was wriggle room for them even if they weren't fully duped. Hird came across as suspicious after a short while. His role in David Evan's demise did it for me. He sure didn't help with his testimony dropping Reid in it recently. Of all the people and things I admit I haven't changed much on him after the first few months. But I have changed my position on most other things: the player's guilt; the role of the club; the role of Demetriou; Bomber Thompson and Doc Reid; how ASADA is handling the case; how Essendon should be punished if the players are suspended etc...

I argue here, but I take in information. I stop to digest it. I might change the way I think on the saga.

You come across as one-dimensional and you never move your position. Instead, you will even invent scenarios like ASADA delaying proceedings to hold you position - when no such thing is really happening. You cling too tight. After a while people notice you aren't being real. That is what annoys them with you. Like you have a dog in the fight, but you ain't telling. Why you are seen differently to posters like DonsRule and others who take the Essendon side, but are proudly Essendon supporters.

I'm sure you are genuine in yourself, but I think that is how you come across.
 
fishardansin said:
They did this precisely because they thought Dank was delving into really serious doping at Essendon. As I said in me rumours board thread there was a lot of talk going around that Essendon had used HGH, and with 20-20 hind sight that is now obviously coming from Carlton conditioning coaches taping Alavi. The other part of my rumour was that Robinson was being investigated by the police. Well I had never heard of Dank at that stage so it's clear that Dank was the guy that was being investigated by the ACC.

While the ACC obviously didn't say "Andrew it is Essendon we're investigating" Demetriou would have known of all the rumours swirling around Essendon, in fact they're trying to say that Hird had brought up peptide with Clothier already.

Anyway its been reported in a number of places that Gil told Hird up front that they didn't believe him and that Essendon was doping. The AFL thought by creating that controversy they were going to distract the public from real doping and that ASADA would sweep it under the carpet with a deal.
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Gerard Healy, the physio, also a footballer, a Brownlow Medallist, told Adrian Anderson of concerns before any of the side game you refer to fishy, occurred.

I heard Gerard on Melbourne radio, so file your rumours in the round basket in the kitchen. You are simply in denial, I know, I love Ben Cousins to this day, BUT he let my club down big time, yet I prefer his achievements to his failures.

Digressing, the shootout at Etihad won by the Bombers courtesy of Jimmy v the Eagles & Cuz remains one of my favourite games ever - 2 fair dinkum champions of our game lifting their teams. We lost, bloody great game.
 
Bobby Charlton said:
There are two possible outcomes for the players regardless of whether they took prohibited substances or not.

1) No sanction and cleared.
2) Sanction of up to 4 years ban, career ruined, labelled drug cheat, with the possibility of suing someone for some compensation.

You are asserting that the AFLPA should be seeking to establish outcome (2) in preference to outcome (1). I repeat - that is absurd nonsense.
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Your 2 outcomes are nonsense - there is more than 2 options in front of us and you know.

In this case the AFLPA are creating the case for backdating - it is pretty simple really. They are not pushing for your choice 2, just accepting guilty is likely (or maybe even just very possible) and therfore they are trying to get the ban reduced if one happens, and as part of a story to lift some of the drug cheating stigma because of a derisory ban. It also does not undermine the ability of the players to sue, just lessens the impact on them.

I think it is an idication that they think sanctions will be coming, otherwise why would they do it.
 
fishardansin said:
Essendon has been to weak and compliant with Vlad under Evans and then along came Little who speaks a big game and turns it all into a massive bitch fight, only to fold at the end anyway. His method is worse than meekly bending over at the beginning. If you go down the course that he did with his "we've lost confidence in the AFL" speech he should have gone all the way with supreme court challenges. If the AFL threatened to mess with our fixture he should have threatened to legally challenge the equalisation policies like salary caps and restricted player movement.

The club should have been more aggressive early on against "journalists" who were beginning memes that were "half truths and probably lies" and still survive today. Instead they stood meekly by and lost control of the message, then Evans had a few weak retorts ... and then eventually others at the club, namely Hird, were reduced to having to play the same pathetic game of selective leaking. Only when you start a long time after you foe you look even more pathetic than them.

Once again going to the supreme court to demand a right of reply to many of the claims in the interim report and a hearing before any punishment would have been the right course of action. However, the players were lent upon that if Hird and the club copped the public flogging it'd all be over. Well that went well didn't.
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You are funny.... if you dont want to play in the AFL because you dont like the AFL feel free to set up your own league.

You can then favour any journalist you like and ban any you dont like. Go ahead, give it a try. It might work.
 
andrewb said:
They do have a case to answer.
There is some evidence of a supply chain of TB4 to Dank.
There's just not enough to prove guilt to a tribunal, even when the standard of proof is as low as 'comfortable satisfaction'.
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You really are misrepresenting the situation.

ASADA can't really say the players "are guilty" because that is not their function at this time. In this process they have the function of building the case and presenting it to others.
Stating that ASADA does not have "enough to prove guilt" is simply incorrect - we dont know. Pretending that because ADADA have not said "they are guilty" they must be innocent is a missunderstanding of where we are.
 

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RegHickeyStand said:
GG, your problem maybe this:

When I first heard about this scandal I didn't believe it. Didn't know much about it, and I thought Hird was a pretty straight individual and admired him as a footballer.. I had no bias against Essendon.

The way Essendon acted I got very suspicious very quick. I never thought Bomber had anything to do with it. Then I thought he might. There was a flood of information. I thought the players were duped. Then I wasn't sure. Then I felt sorry for them and hoped there was wriggle room for them even if they weren't fully duped. Hird came across as suspicious after a short while. His role in David Evan's demise did it for me. He sure didn't help with his testimony dropping Reid in it recently. Of all the people and things I admit I haven't changed much on him after the first few months. But I have changed my position on most other things: the player's guilt; the role of the club; the role of Demetriou; Bomber Thompson and Doc Reid; how ASADA is handling the case; how Essendon should be punished if the players are suspended etc...

I argue here, but I take in information. I stop to digest it. I might change the way I think on the saga.

You come across as one-dimensional and you never move your position. Instead, you will even invent scenarios like ASADA delaying proceedings to hold you position - when no such thing is really happening. You cling too tight. After a while people notice you aren't being real. That is what annoys them with you. Like you have a dog in the fight, but you ain't telling. Why you are seen differently to posters like DonsRule and others who take the Essendon side, but are proudly Essendon supporters.

I'm sure you are genuine in yourself, but I think that is how you come across.
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I think this is an outstanding post. I started the whole thing like you did, willing to give Essendon any benenfit of any doubt that may exist. However, the way Essendon have conducted themselves eventually made it impossible not to turn against them. No completely innocent party would ever behave as they have done.

As for GG, I simply skip past every post he makes, he has zero credibility.
 
RegHickeyStand said:
GG, your problem maybe this:

When I first heard about this scandal I didn't believe it. Didn't know much about it, and I thought Hird was a pretty straight individual and admired him as a footballer.. I had no bias against Essendon.

The way Essendon acted I got very suspicious very quick. I never thought Bomber had anything to do with it. Then I thought he might. There was a flood of information. I thought the players were duped. Then I wasn't sure. Then I felt sorry for them and hoped there was wriggle room for them even if they weren't fully duped. Hird came across as suspicious after a short while. His role in David Evan's demise did it for me. He sure didn't help with his testimony dropping Reid in it recently. Of all the people and things I admit I haven't changed much on him after the first few months. But I have changed my position on most other things: the player's guilt; the role of the club; the role of Demetriou; Bomber Thompson and Doc Reid; how ASADA is handling the case; how Essendon should be punished if the players are suspended etc...

I argue here, but I take in information. I stop to digest it. I might change the way I think on the saga.

You come across as one-dimensional and you never move your position. Instead, you will even invent scenarios like ASADA delaying proceedings to hold you position - when no such thing is really happening. You cling too tight. After a while people notice you aren't being real. That is what annoys them with you. Like you have a dog in the fight, but you ain't telling. Why you are seen differently to posters like DonsRule and others who take the Essendon side, but are proudly Essendon supporters.

I'm sure you are genuine in yourself, but I think that is how you come across.
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thats all getting a bit too heavy man, a bit too heavy...
 
Adelaide Hawk said:
I think this is an outstanding post. I started the whole thing like you did, willing to give Essendon any benenfit of any doubt that may exist. However, the way Essendon have conducted themselves eventually made it impossible not to turn against them. No completely innocent party would ever behave as they have done.

As for GG, I simply skip past every post he makes, he has zero credibility.
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The way that essendon have conducted themselves or the way that they have been portrayed as conducting themselves?
 
The GG said:
I guess the PA gets involved to the extent that the players want the representation
the PA is probably better prepared than it has ever been to get anti-doping type queries from the players, perhaps that never happened or rarely happened in the past?
I don't really know
it looks like they are involved now, and they are wanting to get to the tribunal as quickly as possible
and ASADA is not wanting to get there as quickly as possible
and people are left to speculate as to why that might be the case
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Nah the PA is just another parasitic union - taking the members fees and dues, Executive paying themselves good money, doing deals where they can and pretending to their members that they are representing them. That's why they have been silent and missing in action for three years.
 
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