Analysis Saints Footy - what is it and what do we want it to be?

[austinnn]

I thought I'd make a thread to give us a single space to discuss our team's footy generally rather than in a specific game. If no one cares to use it it'll fall away and that's fine but maybe it can be useful rather than having that conversation split up into various previews and autopsies.

So, Saints Footy. What do you reckon?

I'll start:
I have followed the club since 97 and Saints Footy has changed a lot over the years. Right now it's obviously been found wanting because of the lack of accountability, but when it works it's very exciting.

I think most of us would agree that we don't yet see evidence of a strong system that the players adhere to in the manner of Geelong, Sydney, Richmond or West Coast.

I am divided about System based footy. I think I want it, and it's clear clubs who use it set themselves up better for success. Additionally, the most successful era since I've been a fan was with the strongest system, the Lyon era, and I found the style quite boring. It was obviously good winning so much, but I didn't really enjoy watching us play much, even with all our stars because if the type of game Lyon played, and (without wishing to debate this point particularly) I maintain that one reason we didn't win the 09 GF was that we weren't a high scoring team, so we allowed the opposition to stay close and ultimately overtake us.

Generally St Kilda has favoured Star Power over the System, probably because stars are free to any team finishing low enough to be able to draft them, but the best coaches cost big money. We're all about the Riewoldts, Harveys, Locketts, Stevens, Kings, etc and less about the Matthews's, Clarksons, Sheedys, Thompsons and Hardwicks. We love our messiahs on field but we don't often give them a coaching system to match.

We've tried. The biggest star coach was too big for us and thought he'd phone it in from the golf course. We placed a huge amount of faith time and money into our most recent excoach hoping that he'd develop us from the ground up into an unstoppable unit, only to find that he had no actual tactics besides working hard.

But now we have the Hawthorn mastermind Rath and supposed excellent teaching coach Ratten we should be flying. Despite all that's gone wrong for us this year, certain questions are emerging: why are we playing players out of position? Why did we cut our depth so drastically? Where is the selection integrity? Where are the skills they claim to focus on? Most importantly IMO; why have we built a gameplan so heavily dependent on two specific ruckmen, one of which is nearing retirement, without any credible ruck depth?

We have the opposite to the system based approach, which normally works regardless of personnel, where you can plug a debutant into the team to play a role without exposing them. Our performance relies heavily on the form of our best players, which makes us inconsistent, and extremely vulnerable to injuries. Yes even the strongest systems depend on star players performing, but the system is what allows them to perform. They are well drilled, communicative, synchronised with each other - in contrast this year Saints play like a bunch of strangers.

I think Lethlean, Ratten and Rath are probably building towards installing a system but so far it seems chaotic and it appears the players are not capable of following it. One thing I liked about the later Richo years - and there wasn't much - was that it seemed to be pushing towards an even team effort, and not one or two messiahs. In the end though I think it was just that we didn't have any truly elite players.

I want to see us build a strong system that our players know back to front. It will obviously need a plan B and C so we are not too brittle when oppositions figure out the way to stop us, but we need players that can execute it consistently, rather than get by on lucky breaks and pure talent.

Are Ratten & Rath capable of building this? I don't know. Some say yes, and I'm prepared to keep the faith, but my confidence is slowly morphing into hope. What's clear is that we need a new approach that should be drilled mercilessly in the preseason, I would even suggest post-bye. But this preseason needs a greater emphasis on fitness and conditioning and skills too so this means a hell of a lot of extra work for players and coaches. After the confidence sapping season we're enduring, and the number of delistings likely to occur, will the players be motivated to bleed for the club?

For me, a huge problem is on field leadership. I really want to see the young group step up and grab this club by the scruff and take lead, not wait for it to be given. Though he's young, I hope Byrnes will be one of these players. I've talked before about Battle and Coffield being leaders too, I don't know if I'm being unrealistic there but when they mature and find consistency I can see their personalities being perfect. But overall the player culture seems quiet, individualistic, and relaxed. This cannot be allowed to continue.

Well anyway that's my two cents for now:

What's your view on Saints Footy? What do we want from specific players? What kind of coaches or assistants would help take us where we need to go?

 

[austinnn]

Here's another question: does Luke Dunstan have the qualities that would allow him to transform his standing in the team in the manner of Jarryn Geary from scapegoated spud to dependable and respected roleplayer? Can he sacrifice his game to shut a player down in attack or defense?

He is obviously a player with shortcomings but if we can get him to pick up where Gears left off and build his strength a bit, I think he has the heart for it. He was a junior state captain so he must have character. For a player the club drafted so many years ago and now on the precipice of delisting, it would be great to find a role that works for him and the club.

What do you think?

 

[sunny3193]

1. Saints Footy is currently rubbish.
2. Saints Footy should stop being rubbish.
3. I have a lot of time for Luke. Not the most gifted player but it is rare not to see him either put his body on the line for the team or a teammate. He bleeds rwb. All teams need foot soldiers and that is his role, at best. Whether the coaches see a spot for him is another matter. But having someone of his determination and competitiveness in the team is a plus.

 

[LJC05]

To quote the great Pat Riley, legendary NBA figure:

“We want to be the hardest working, best conditioned, most professional, unselfish, toughest and nastiest team in the league.”

 

[XhazzafootyX]

1. Saints Footy is currently rubbish.
2. Saints Footy should stop being rubbish.
3. I have a lot of time for Luke. Not the most gifted player but it is rare not to see him either put his body on the line for the team or a teammate. He bleeds rwb. All teams need foot soldiers and that is his role, at best. Whether the coaches see a spot for him is another matter. But having someone of his determination and competitiveness in the team is a plus.

I’ll be first to admit I have been critical of Luke. But he does wear his heart on his sleeve and he actually gives a f*** about this club. You can never question his effort.

But this is a real good opportunity to get back into this side and continue his afl career beyond this season.

Having a player unselfishly stop an opposition player hurting you can go along way to winning. And it also inspires their team mates to work hard defensively and sacrifice their game aswell.

Hope Luke goes to Parker this week.

 

[gringo2011]

Our depth and lack of stars is still our biggest issue. Pretty much in a holding pattern until we get both. Steele is our gun and then we have a few good and some developing players. Absolutely zero depth in VFL as well. Looking at sides like Brisbane who have more depth of star talent and half a dozen guys that would walk into our best 22 in reserve. We are still a few years off and have to get everything right.

 

[pluggeranddoc]

Our depth and lack of stars is still our biggest issue. Pretty much in a holding pattern until we get both. Steele is our gun and then we have a few good and some developing players. Absolutely zero depth in VFL as well. Looking at sides like Brisbane who have more depth of star talent and half a dozen guys that would walk into our best 22 in reserve. We are still a few years off and have to get everything right.

+We do have a couple of mercenaries being paid as if they are stars!
We need to get rid of both (as well as the monkeys who brought them in) and start from the ground up with blokes who are fair dinkum!

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

I’ll be first to admit I have been critical of Luke. But he does wear his heart on his sleeve and he actually gives a f*** about this club. You can never question his effort.

But this is a real good opportunity to get back into this side and continue his afl career beyond this season.

Having a player unselfishly stop an opposition player hurting you can go along way to winning. And it also inspires their team mates to work hard defensively and sacrifice their game aswell.

Hope Luke goes to Parker this week.

The biggest thing about Dunstan becoming a tagger is we know he can absolutely rack up possessions if we need it. Playing as a tagger he can do his role but if we’re ever in a game where we’re losing out on contested game or crouch or Steele get injured mid game he can just go into ball hunting mode like usual.

 

[gringo2011]

The biggest thing about Dunstan becoming a tagger is we know he can absolutely rack up possessions if we need it. Playing as a tagger he can do his role but if we’re ever in a game where we’re losing out on contested game or crouch or Steele get injured mid game he can just go into ball hunting mode like usual.

I still think Ratts could easily re jig the game plan and get much more out of they side. He's wanting us to be peak Hawks and not Richmond. Richmond are a perfect model. No-one has to be a great kick or good at skills, they pressure and hassle and munt the ball forward quickly to avoid defences setting up. They have talent but they don't rely on it. A spud can cover a gun as long as the depth isn't too hacked into. We still have a lot of guys who don't have outstanding skills, we might as well embrace the shitness.

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

I still think Ratts could easily re jig the game plan and get much more out of they side. He's wanting us to be peak Hawks and not Richmond. Richmond are a perfect model. No-one has to be a great kick or good at skills, they pressure and hassle and munt the ball forward quickly to avoid defences setting up. They have talent but they don't rely on it. A spud can cover a gun as long as the depth isn't too hacked into. We still have a lot of guys who don't have outstanding skills, we might as well embrace the shitness.

It astounds me how often Richmond pull of the same loopy long bombs we complain about our players doing but they end up kicking a goal

 

[Mowman]

Its bad and I want it to be good

 

[theprospect]

Look at the best sides over the last 5-10 years. Geelong, Western Bulldogs, Hawthorn, Richmond etc. What do they all have in common? They have strong VFL sides that play the way their AFL sides do, so that when players do get injured you can have someone come in and immediately know exactly how to play their role and be reliable.

All of them have won VFL and AFL flags. Bulldogs, Richmond and Hawthorn all won VFL flags in AFL premiership years, that is no coincidence. You can say this about Sydney and Brisbane as well being successful sides in their reserves comp over the years, and GWS to an extent. You look at St Kilda and we have no depth, just a handful of players that play with Sandringham each week. No real connection between the two clubs, and no opportunity to build their games the way they should play when they get their chance. It's why we have so many fringe players that are always coming in and out of the team and having no real impact.

It's easy to sit here and say we need to do this and that, and this is what our Plan B and Plan C should be etc but successful teams are built from the ground all the way up through their entire football program. It's just really frustrating because we're not ever going to have that, and it makes it so much harder to do well. Premierships are ******* hard to win and we know that more than anyone, recruiting solid role players from other clubs isn't going to do it.

On a side note as well we're clearly just not fit enough at the moment, similar to Melbourne of 2019 getting smashed by injuries and having an underperforming list because they can't run out games. They go and get the best fitness people available and now they look scintillating. Note that they are also top of the VFL ladder.

 

[ScrappyDo]

I thought I'd make a thread to give us a single space to discuss our team's footy generally rather than in a specific game. If no one cares to use it it'll fall away and that's fine but maybe it can be useful rather than having that conversation split up into various previews and autopsies.

So, Saints Footy. What do you reckon?

I'll start:
I have followed the club since 97 and Saints Footy has changed a lot over the years. Right now it's obviously been found wanting because of the lack of accountability, but when it works it's very exciting.

I think most of us would agree that we don't yet see evidence of a strong system that the players adhere to in the manner of Geelong, Sydney, Richmond or West Coast.

I am divided about System based footy. I think I want it, and it's clear clubs who use it set themselves up better for success. Additionally, the most successful era since I've been a fan was with the strongest system, the Lyon era, and I found the style quite boring. It was obviously good winning so much, but I didn't really enjoy watching us play much, even with all our stars because if the type of game Lyon played, and (without wishing to debate this point particularly) I maintain that one reason we didn't win the 09 GF was that we weren't a high scoring team, so we allowed the opposition to stay close and ultimately overtake us.

Generally St Kilda has favoured Star Power over the System, probably because stars are free to any team finishing low enough to be able to draft them, but the best coaches cost big money. We're all about the Riewoldts, Harveys, Locketts, Stevens, Kings, etc and less about the Matthews's, Clarksons, Sheedys, Thompsons and Hardwicks. We love our messiahs on field but we don't often give them a coaching system to match.

We've tried. The biggest star coach was too big for us and thought he'd phone it in from the golf course. We placed a huge amount of faith time and money into our most recent excoach hoping that he'd develop us from the ground up into an unstoppable unit, only to find that he had no actual tactics besides working hard.

But now we have the Hawthorn mastermind Rath and supposed excellent teaching coach Ratten we should be flying. Despite all that's gone wrong for us this year, certain questions are emerging: why are we playing players out of position? Why did we cut our depth so drastically? Where is the selection integrity? Where are the skills they claim to focus on? Most importantly IMO; why have we built a gameplan so heavily dependent on two specific ruckmen, one of which is nearing retirement, without any credible ruck depth?

We have the opposite to the system based approach, which normally works regardless of personnel, where you can plug a debutant into the team to play a role without exposing them. Our performance relies heavily on the form of our best players, which makes us inconsistent, and extremely vulnerable to injuries. Yes even the strongest systems depend on star players performing, but the system is what allows them to perform. They are well drilled, communicative, synchronised with each other - in contrast this year Saints play like a bunch of strangers.

I think Lethlean, Ratten and Rath are probably building towards installing a system but so far it seems chaotic and it appears the players are not capable of following it. One thing I liked about the later Richo years - and there wasn't much - was that it seemed to be pushing towards an even team effort, and not one or two messiahs. In the end though I think it was just that we didn't have any truly elite players.

I want to see us build a strong system that our players know back to front. It will obviously need a plan B and C so we are not too brittle when oppositions figure out the way to stop us, but we need players that can execute it consistently, rather than get by on lucky breaks and pure talent.

Are Ratten & Rath capable of building this? I don't know. Some say yes, and I'm prepared to keep the faith, but my confidence is slowly morphing into hope. What's clear is that we need a new approach that should be drilled mercilessly in the preseason, I would even suggest post-bye. But this preseason needs a greater emphasis on fitness and conditioning and skills too so this means a hell of a lot of extra work for players and coaches. After the confidence sapping season we're enduring, and the number of delistings likely to occur, will the players be motivated to bleed for the club?

For me, a huge problem is on field leadership. I really want to see the young group step up and grab this club by the scruff and take lead, not wait for it to be given. Though he's young, I hope Byrnes will be one of these players. I've talked before about Battle and Coffield being leaders too, I don't know if I'm being unrealistic there but when they mature and find consistency I can see their personalities being perfect. But overall the player culture seems quiet, individualistic, and relaxed. This cannot be allowed to continue.

Well anyway that's my two cents for now:

What's your view on Saints Footy? What do we want from specific players? What kind of coaches or assistants would help take us where we need to go?

TLDR, but at a glance:

.Saints footy is a load of pooh. The definition changes with each coach and evolution, where as players from successful clubs will only speak about "playing to our system" rather than Hawks footy or Tig's footy.
I never want to hear anyone from our club use the term "Saints footy" ever ever again.

.Rath was not the Hawthorn mastermind. That was and still is Clarko.
He is obviously super intelligent and an annalist of some ability, but those qualities do not necessarily translate to his current roll, and in fact being something of a boffin can indicate that analytics is his thing rather than original thought.
I like him as an acquisition, but we should not be expecting Rath and Ratts to deliver the next revolution.

.Leadership will take a step next season when they let go the deadwood from the previous rebuild and align behind the new blokes.
Robbo, Gears, Hanners and Snake need to go. I'd throw in Seb and JB if we got something proper in return.

At the start of the season I had Dunny, Joyce, Dmac and Clav on the scrapheap, but I've seen enough this year to hold fire as we'd get nothing for any of them.
We have plenty enough out of: Gears, Robbo, Hanners, Snake, Frawley, Wood, Punter, Smack, Kent to open spots before we look others younger blokes.

Lastly, the thing that's come to the fore this year is that we are timid with contact. Can't stand the heat.
Hill probably hasn't helped by setting a poor example every day at training, but we need to back some campaigners and get back to some basic aggression. Dunstan, Long, Jones and Marshall all being out of the side has exposed a soft underbelly of a far too nice attitude.

 

[austinnn]

Our depth and lack of stars is still our biggest issue. Pretty much in a holding pattern until we get both. Steele is our gun and then we have a few good and some developing players. Absolutely zero depth in VFL as well. Looking at sides like Brisbane who have more depth of star talent and half a dozen guys that would walk into our best 22 in reserve. We are still a few years off and have to get everything right.

That's my point though. We're too dependent on our few stars, player form, and player injuries.

Why can't our coaches drill a game plan that is unstoppable? That's something that will take a little time, but we can start right now, not wait until draft night.

 

[Brains Trust66]

Its hard to talk about a lack of depth when you see the quality of players out injured . I don’t blame the Saints for getting Paul Hunter as they really had no choice once Marshall got injured . The real mistake i think was they haven’t drafted a young ruckman for the future when Ryder eventually retires . I am the first to admit I pay little attention to the draft so perhaps the Saints didn’t think there was one there but it’s something they have to fix . Unless they have some idea or plan to buy in one from another club , that young guy at the Blues looks pretty good to me but I can’t see them letting him go .

Losing Gresham , Hanners , Paton , and Jones is disappointing but other clubs have their injuries too . Some clubs seem to only get their fringe players injured but unfortunately we are not one of those .

The good thing is because of the injury to Paton we have been able to see Webster rediscover his old belief . Pretty sure if Paton was not injured then Webster would probably still be playing for Sandy .
With both Carlisle and Frawley getting injured it has opened the way for Highmore to get some games and Clavarino to finally be tried . One of Highmore , Clavarino and Battle have to take over CHB for good now because Carlisle has probably played his last game and Frawley may or may not play one more season . I know we all hope that Ben King comes to the Saints but I still think that is unlikely as we wouldn’t be able to match whatever he is being paid .

Hanners might not play again for the Saints and if he does , on current form, it won’t be many games . So getting games into Byrnes and Bytel is extremely important.

I have no problem with the style of play we are capable of playing , it’s just getting the players on the park that we need . We look a ten goal better side just when both Ryder and Marshall are both playing . Max King is still learning the game so I’m not critical of him at all . It’s very hard to be so young and inexperienced but still get the best defender playing on you every week . If we had one of Marshall or Ryder down there with him each week it would make a huge difference.

that’s my two cents .

 

[hayes]

Premiership teams score off turnover whereas we like to score from stoppage which makes us super reliant on ruckmen which is not a premiership formula. Even last year at our best our scores came from stoppage. According to Justin Leppitsch every flag team ever has had a positive score from turnover differential.

I’m amazed that apparently we bring in all these ex Hawthorn so called experts during their three-peat like Ratten, Rath and even the numbers/analyst guy Darren O’something (not going to attempt to spell his name) yet they put together an anti Hawks gameplan. As skilled as those Hawthorn teams were they were always at the top for forward half pressure yet we have zero emphasis on it.

I think part of the problem is a lot of our speed has gone from our game particularly in the front half. Most of last year we had Butler, Hind and Kent at the feet of our three tall forwards, for the first few weeks the only pace we had in the forward line was Butler. Paton and Long are super quick but are out of the team for different reasons. Jones and Gresham have missed most of the year. Coffield played tall at the start of the year, it’s just too much pace out of the team in one year.

Saints footy right now is win the stoppage with everyone bursting forward leaving our defence vulnerable. Our focus needs to basically be the opposite of that.

 

[austinnn]

I don't know much about fitness regimes in AFL clubs, but I'd say that the bye is a perfect opportunity for the club to work on player conditioning rather than giving the players a week off.

I know they could probably do with a reset and a breather, but Id prefer them to roll up their sleeves and spend the second half of the season regaining their supporters' respect, as well as that of the competition.

Not only from a footy perspective, because finals however unlikely cannot and should not be ruled out at this stage, but also because the record number of members will need to have hope for 2022 sold to them and words and flashy campaigns won't do it anymore. We have a hard run home and finals are pretty unlikely but I'd prefer us to try to get finals than to keep our powder dry until next year. The winning mentality starts with fighting the unwinnable fights.

 

[George]

Lots of injuries and no depth. Our first 22 is top four material and our bottom 15 is bottom four material.

Mental lapses, inconsistency and defense all need serious work. Integrity of selection paramount.

 

[George]

And Saints footy for me is 2004-2005. Funnily enough Ratts is the closest thing we've had to that attacking style since GT but he doesn't have the cattle for it at the moment. And we played with spirit and love for the jumper. That group really understood what it meant to be a St.Kilda person.

Nothing encapsulates my definition of this club more than the 2005 Qualifying final. It's probably a tad higher up than the 09 preliminary for being the best game I've ever watched.

 

[austinnn]

And Saints footy for me is 2004-2005. Funnily enough Ratts is the closest thing we've had to that attacking style since GT but he doesn't have the cattle for it at the moment. And we played with spirit and love for the jumper. That group really understood what it meant to be a St.Kilda person.

Nothing encapsulates my definition of this club more than the 2005 Qualifying final. It's probably a tad higher up than the 09 preliminary for being the best game I've ever watched.

People can say what they like about GT but his man management and leadership program were elite.

I wonder how far we'd have got if he'd stayed as Director of Football and we'd replaced Blighty with a tactically astute coach.

I'd love him to come in and run a leadership program with our current mob in the off season, but I suppose it would never work out, he couldn't be answerable to anyone, that was his big flaw.

 

[George]

People can say what they like about GT but his man management and leadership program were elite.

I wonder how far we'd have got if he'd stayed as Director of Football and we'd replaced Blighty with a tactically astute coach.

I'd love him to come in and run a leadership program with our current mob in the off season, but I suppose it would never work out, he couldn't be answerable to anyone, that was his big flaw.

We were only a Guerra toepoke from a GF so who knows what could've been. We had a great side back then.

 

[gringo2011]

Look at the best sides over the last 5-10 years. Geelong, Western Bulldogs, Hawthorn, Richmond etc. What do they all have in common? They have strong VFL sides that play the way their AFL sides do, so that when players do get injured you can have someone come in and immediately know exactly how to play their role and be reliable.

All of them have won VFL and AFL flags. Bulldogs, Richmond and Hawthorn all won VFL flags in AFL premiership years, that is no coincidence. You can say this about Sydney and Brisbane as well being successful sides in their reserves comp over the years, and GWS to an extent. You look at St Kilda and we have no depth, just a handful of players that play with Sandringham each week. No real connection between the two clubs, and no opportunity to build their games the way they should play when they get their chance. It's why we have so many fringe players that are always coming in and out of the team and having no real impact.

It's easy to sit here and say we need to do this and that, and this is what our Plan B and Plan C should be etc but successful teams are built from the ground all the way up through their entire football program. It's just really frustrating because we're not ever going to have that, and it makes it so much harder to do well. Premierships are ******* hard to win and we know that more than anyone, recruiting solid role players from other clubs isn't going to do it.

On a side note as well we're clearly just not fit enough at the moment, similar to Melbourne of 2019 getting smashed by injuries and having an underperforming list because they can't run out games. They go and get the best fitness people available and now they look scintillating. Note that they are also top of the VFL ladder.

I think part of that is having true AFL quality depth as well as recruiting good players to the VFL side that aren't affiliated with the AFL club. We have neither at the moment. Not having our own stand alone is a cop out, clubs like Box Hill manage to do both.

 

[gringo2011]

TLDR, but at a glance:

.Saints footy is a load of pooh. The definition changes with each coach and evolution, where as players from successful clubs will only speak about "playing to our system" rather than Hawks footy or Tig's footy.
I never want to hear anyone from our club use the term "Saints footy" ever ever again.

.Rath was not the Hawthorn mastermind. That was and still is Clarko.
He is obviously super intelligent and an annalist of some ability, but those qualities do not necessarily translate to his current roll, and in fact being something of a boffin can indicate that analytics is his thing rather than original thought.
I like him as an acquisition, but we should not be expecting Rath and Ratts to deliver the next revolution.

.Leadership will take a step next season when they let go the deadwood from the previous rebuild and align behind the new blokes.
Robbo, Gears, Hanners and Snake need to go. I'd throw in Seb and JB if we got something proper in return.

At the start of the season I had Dunny, Joyce, Dmac and Clav on the scrapheap, but I've seen enough this year to hold fire as we'd get nothing for any of them.
We have plenty enough out of: Gears, Robbo, Hanners, Snake, Frawley, Wood, Punter, Smack, Kent to open spots before we look others younger blokes.

Lastly, the thing that's come to the fore this year is that we are timid with contact. Can't stand the heat.
Hill probably hasn't helped by setting a poor example every day at training, but we need to back some campaigners and get back to some basic aggression. Dunstan, Long, Jones and Marshall all being out of the side has exposed a soft underbelly of a far too nice attitude.

That's why missing guys like Poulter hurt. He just has swagger and stands up to players coming at him. He has an attitude. We seem to cultivate meekness. Guys that have been in our system for years never seem to look gym fit too. Hunter Clark still has twiggy arms and Jack Billings looks fit but he still looks like a teenager. I don't know if other sides are on roids but our bodies don't seem to grow at the same rate.

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

Lots of injuries and no depth. Our first 22 is top four material and our bottom 15 is bottom four material.

Mental lapses, inconsistency and defense all need serious work. Integrity of selection paramount.

Premership teams often have competition for spots. We really lack that right now.

 

[austinnn]

Here's another related point that I've been pondering lately.

Back a few years ago, when St Kilda has no elite players a massive chunk of salary cap space burning a hole in our pockets, we went out an bought a few really good players - but there was a reason why Hill and Butler in particular weren't let go with too much fuss.

Richmond are system-based team. Maybe Butler found himself on the outer too many times because he couldn't or wouldn't play the system properly, and relied on his talent to get goals. He was and is a good footballer, but perhaps a better fit in a team which allowed their flair players more freedom, than a strict team who demand everyone play their role. I've said before he's the kind of player you bring in when everything is going your way, but a hard sell to the supporters when everyone needs to roll of their sleeves and get back to basics.

Hill is another player whose skill is greater than their roleplaying ability. Every team would love a player like Brad - in form - but some teams can carry him and others can't.

It seems to me we just went out and got stars - any stars who would come to us, without a system or strategy.

Who cares? Last year Butler was 2nd on our B&F and a roaring success - when things were going well, he punished the opposition. I don't mind having flash players in our team, but we really need to work on the fundamentals right now and I'd say maybe the flashiest and least accountable need a break so we can focus on role playing and consistency.