Autopsy Saints v Dees

[sauce_head]

Is Carroll likely to get dropped this week?

Will definitely play. Make him captain.

 

[akaifu]

Carroll unimpressive, I like Stocker but Stocker is not quick, think the bigger grounds could be an issue Marvel he should be okay.
I think we should be giving more time to Hastie.

Long way back for Hastie if he is to have a future at the club

 

[bergholt]

There’s no way he’s on a million a year. More likely a million dollars for both seasons, which Tom took to mean a million for each.

pretty sure everyone at the Saints is on at least a million a year, that's why the rest of the comp is so annoyed at us

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

pretty sure everyone at the Saints is on at least a million a year, that's why the rest of the comp is so annoyed at us

Geelong wishes they were on our level with salary cap shenanigans

 

[saintbill]

Sack Lyon

I knew you would come around

 

[Parkysp]

Hill seemed to be excellent.

And yet as a senior player kicked across the face of goal with a loopy kick to our player that was put under pressure and we conceded a goal. He had the short kick to the closer unmarked player but didn't take it.

I know it was one of many so not just him but we need our senior players to stop doing absolutely brain dead things for a start. The skill error was secondary to the wrong decision in that case.

And I'll line up each of our senior players and give them a bake for costing close to a 6 goal turnaround in both defense and attack.

It feels like we have gifted a game of football, two weeks in a row through a lack of care and consideration. That's what i'd be banging on about all week. Give them the "Plough" treatment about "hounerable" losses.

 

[Xxxx66]

Is Carroll likely to get dropped this week?

Copped a knock on his thigh so might be in some doubt for next week anyway

 

[Sneh]

Copped a knock on his thigh so might be in some doubt for next week anyway

 

[Xxxx66]

Observations from watching the replay after seeing the game live .
Positives- pou was involved in quite a few centre clearances early on . Definitely building confidence and skills.hopefully ok for next week
Garcia in the centre bounces showing huge potential
Hall !! Hall !! Hall !!


Negatives . Hills kicking turnovers resulting in a few goals . Don’t know weather it’s execution or mentally picking the wrong targets
Silvanis 2 left foot kick turnovers early resulting in goals . He ll definitely learn from it and improved as the game went on
Caminiti going to sleep on his opponent . Too slow as well and no physical presence at all .
Mcrea looking old
Sharman dropping 2 sitters Again wtf is wrong with him
Carrol’s 2 miskicks with no pressure

That's a very short negative list.

Id add box's miss on goal, higgo's snap from 5 metres, Wilkie, box, viking,, keeler, sinc's , dropped marks, Hill, sincs, viking, Flanders, naz miss kicks. Lots more i cant be bothered typing. It's been a long time since I have seen us **** up basic skills like that,. It wasn't just the whiping boys.

 

[Teflon]

What is interesting is clearly they’re trying a new style - it’s not clicked yet but you can’t argue (except for the media morons) that it’s very un-Ross Lyon …..super fast trying to move the ball quick into 50 …but same time being re bounded against with poor defensive set ups ….??? If you needed proof Lyon has handed some of the reigns over I think it’s there …
A few - included Enright - have said the game has sped up …the good sides are kicking cricket scores (see Dogs/Swans) I think we know 9 goals won’t cut it and they’re trying
That said clearly Nas carrying something but surely Hall has to go more mid time ??
I’d also like to see Banfield get a run has size bit of mongrel …
We won’t win this week but I’m more interested in the style and seeing IF we can get any closer to what the final product might look like consistently

 

[Nomis2933]

I come from old school roots, but if a player is told it is safe to fail, they will inevitably fail. What is wrong with the fear of being dropped or , god forbid, given an old fashioned bake. If a player runs to their manager Curnow style and says they got yelled at in front of the group, then you pull out that weed and next player up.

 

[austinnn]

Hundred per cent. One of Wilkies worst games. I don’t get it. Is he being pulled up the ground? Has he lost a yard?

aybe he's feeling the pressure being captain. His biggest strength was his calmness under fire. If he loses that, our D-line is a bunch of headless chickens, he needs to refocus and remember that he doesnt need to change his approach from what it was.

I appreciate his attempts to assume responsibility but he has to make that his secondary job, and if the two contradict each other then the club needs to step in and take the captaincy off his shoulders.

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Sorry ... but where is this Nas being injured news coming from? ...... or are shrillers just shrilling

 

[Dard Ball Get]

Sorry ... but where is this Nas being injured news coming from? ...... or are shrillers just shrilling

Clear knee on knee in Pies game when he front on tackled

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Clear knee on knee in Pies game when he front on tackled

Yet he was moving & jumping fine yesterday .... didn't look hobbled at all

 

[Dard Ball Get]

Yet he was moving & jumping fine yesterday .... didn't look hobbled at all

Can’t both be true?
I don’t have a horse in the race btw, think he’s being misused and if you cross the white line you’re fit

 

[Ads734]

aybe he's feeling the pressure being captain. His biggest strength was his calmness under fire. If he loses that, our D-line is a bunch of headless chickens, he needs to refocus and remember that he doesnt need to change his approach from what it was.

I appreciate his attempts to assume responsibility but he has to make that his secondary job, and if the two contradict each other then the club needs to step in and take the captaincy off his shoulders.

I think the new backline is proving tough for him. Last two years we have lost
Howard, Webster and Battle. Now SOS, Windy, Carrol are new and I think it is taking a toll on him.

 

[SG34]

And yet as a senior player kicked across the face of goal with a loopy kick to our player that was put under pressure and we conceded a goal. He had the short kick to the closer unmarked player but didn't take it.

I know it was one of many so not just him but we need our senior players to stop doing absolutely brain dead things for a start. The skill error was secondary to the wrong decision in that case.

And I'll line up each of our senior players and give them a bake for costing close to a 6 goal turnaround in both defense and attack.

It feels like we have gifted a game of football, two weeks in a row through a lack of care and consideration. That's what i'd be banging on about all week. Give them the "Plough" treatment about "hounerable" losses.

I think both losses this year are squarely on Hill’s shoulders.

I mean, that late kick, when the cause was almost lost, in a desperate bid to risk it all and make something happen is totally irresponsible.

 

[austinnn]

so much whinging!

(I haven't actually read most of the thread so probably repeating a bunch others have said.)

yeah, it's going to be a tough start to the season, that sux. I personally don't think we've been bad but we have been really unpolished and there aren't many easy games so that's hurt us.

but is it surprising? we're still pretty young. I thought Melbourne had a fairly young side but we were younger and less experienced than them.

I can see the potential in these kids but they're basically not performing yet:

• Keeler definitely isn't a player yet, any games he get are gifts to help him develop
• Tauru's very raw and we don't really need a 4th tall back
• Pou is improving every week and was on track for a good game - but yet another injury
• Boxy has big potential but isn't there yet, too many mistakes under pressure
• Carroll's disposal is probably too messy right now, has a lot of cleaning up to do, and just not enough impact
• Hugo goes about it in a really good way but still doesn't quite have the impact he needs to have
• Nas is learning about getting tagged, he'll get to the other side of it but it takes a bit of time
• Wilson is doing pretty well even if I think he could have more impact

none of these guys are older than 23.

not to mention Mitch and Windy who are both going well at just 22, Hammer who's doing ok at 22 in his second season at key back (but at the mercy of the midfield like all defenders), Maxy Hall who at 24 is looking like he should be a serious player, and Flanders who's still only 24 and I reckon is going fine despite still finding his place in the side.

and that's more than half the side.

if we're going to win games with a bunch of relatively inexperienced guys then the experienced players have to carry them.

so that's the real problem, as it has been for years. they're fine but not enough star power there to give the younger players a buffer. in the last two weeks we've basically been beaten by 10x AAs in Pendlebury and Gawn, serious all-time greats who we still allowed to play well.

we just don't have those guys. closest things are Sincs and Wilkie who are both going ok but aren't winning us games off their own boots. Macrae's playing 56% game time (which shows we're focused on the next generation), Hilly's going ok but has never been a one-man matchwinner, Wood's a great guy but is probably done (except that goal), Ryan will keep contributing if he doesn't injure himself. TDK a concern, he doesn't look like the star ruck we bought, despite the new rules.

I get it, we're all disappointed to be 0-2.

but at this point literally the only option is to man the **** up unfortunately.

Thank god, ive been reading this thread wondering if everyone is doing the same joke and I missed it. I cannot believe this reaction so quickly, its beyond emotionally immature. Two losses and everyone and everything is shit? You guys got sucked in so hard to the hype you didn't possibly consider any other option?

Brisbane are under us they have two losses - they played much better teams and are maybe lacking the motivation that we have but still. Any match is 50/50 and other teams have their own agendas, regardless of how good we think we are. Everyone here is talking in absolutes, its crazy.

Im not saying that everything is fine, but even Joey Montagna told us in his interview on Saints TV: its not all magically going to click into place
immediately, despite our big off season and the hype.

Of course we expect more and we have every right to. However, the dangerous thing about being so absolutist about objectives and ultimatums is that it removes flexibility to react to nuance with reason. People who say "if we... our season is over", well what does "over" mean? Should it mean that we sack the coach who has turned us from the plankton of the AFL world we were in 2022 to a club with expectations of finals success? That we destoey everything we've built and start from scratch again? This is the good old Ultimatum Game which outsider bad-faith agents like Glasses Barrett try to plant in supporters' minds and it seems we've fallen for it.

Im not at all happy about how the season has started, I doubt anyone is at St Kilda, but I have faith that the coaches and players can work through the issues and right the course. There have been a few examples of clubs starting their seasons poorly and going on to have good ones overall: Brisbane in '24, Sydney in '17, Richmond in '14. And if the season doesn't recover, in my opinion that doesn't instantly mean the whole project ahould go in the bin and we should do what everyone outside the club are begging us to do and sack Lyon and Bassat and go back to the meek entity we were before. The outside want us to be desperate, they want us to react with hot takes, this thread is the kind of stuff that makes me laugh on other club forums, it must be an absolute joy for visiting Blues etc supporters.

Keep Calm & Carry On

 

[austinnn]

True but in the scheme of our first 6 weeks they were very winnable games that you’d argue we HAD to bank 1 if not both of.

FFS oh someone should have told the opposition teams that we just had to win. In fact, someone should have told our players as well that it was an absolute necessity to win,, because i'm sure they didn't really care.

Listening to Enright in that interview that was posted on this thread, it's clear that they have tried to significantly changed the game style and it's quite possible that it's taking a while to bed in. It certainly tracks with the lack of composure that we're seeing, a lot of players being pressured to act quicker than they are used to.

I expect after some weeks, we'll see significant improvement in that area. What I hope doesn't happen is that we go back to the tried and "true" safe style that has won us games in the past. Gotta keep on keeping on, even if we have short-term pain. We want a faster game style. And our players are capable of it

Even if they don't even know it yet.

 

[Ilovewindy]

Absolutely not.

You know damn well what you should be doing.

Now go and make us proud.

It will be done hahahah. I just gotta say for any young guy, going the US for a trip is a must do. Girls treat me like a celebrity over here. The accent absolutely kills here. I barely talk to any girls back home hahahah

 

[seasonedsainter]

Not an excuse but in reality the injuries that we DO have - i.e. Henry, Byrnes (outside run and link up), King (a key forward) and Marshall (to stretch Gawn) have probably hurt more than the size of the injury list suggests.

There’s no toys left in my cot, but I’m not burning the house down just yet.

Anything can happen and it will take time for the new group to really click. I’d like to see us looking faster on the outside, however that translates at selection and matchday lineup. From what I can gather we really haven’t been taking advantage of the stricter Stand rule like other teams have. The use of NAS has been odd and the lengthy phone conversations are a bizarre look. Don’t over coach elite talent. Hopefully the 23 can sharpen up their skills, decision making and cohesion. Hopefully that happens soon before the season it totally goosed.

Perhaps these two losses will have served to release the pressure valve somewhat, feck it 'what do we have to lose now' kind of way, and we come out and play a lot more freely & without hesitation against the Giants… feel like this happened in the final third of last season.

We’re a momentum team - will need to capture it very soon though.

 

[austinnn]

You’re right that the long term goal shouldn’t be judged purely on two weeks. But that point works both ways.

Ross Lyon’s whole coaching philosophy is built around non negotiables. Pressure, contest, team defence, work rate and system discipline. Those things are not end of season outcomes. They are weekly standards. They are the behaviours that are supposed to show up regardless of opponent, form or where you sit on the ladder.

So when people bring up the “Best Saints Ever” line the criticism is not really about ladder position after two rounds. It is about whether the behaviours that support that ambition are actually showing up now.

The logic is pretty simple. The goal itself is long term, but the standards required to reach it are immediate. The only evidence those standards exist is what the players actually do on the field each week.

You don’t wait until August to start delivering Ross Lyon non negotiables. If pressure, defensive transition and contest intensity are inconsistent early then it is reasonable for supporters to question whether the process that is supposed to get us to that level is actually being executed.

The salary cap argument is also a bit of a side step. Of course the money had to be spent somewhere. The relevant point is why those particular players were targeted in the first place. They were brought in because they were supposed to help drive those standards.

So the discussion is not that the club has failed after two weeks. It is whether the actions that make the ambition credible are being delivered.

If the aspiration is to be the Best Saints Ever then the standard does not start later. It starts now.

I don't disagree with most of that, I do think that the Best Saints Ever stuff that some on this thread are using to demand instant success is being misappropriated. I might be wrong but I think that's being used as the end objective. It doesn’t have a time frame apart from whatever the considered life cycle of this playing group is.

"We want to eventually be", not "By the end of the season, we absolutely must have proven ourselves to be" or "By round 4, we expect to have cemented ourselves undeniably as".

But i think thats also true of behaviours, which take a while to bed in, and nobody knows how the group will be in the heat of the fiercest battle, which you could argue our first two games of the seadon have mostly been. Will we stay true to the theory, the model or will we fall back into the behaviour we exhibited previously. Its one thing to drive change, but its not always easy to divert from what has become second nature under pressure.

I'm happy to watch them continue to forge that new standard in games.

 

[Saintbloke]

I don't think anyone expected us to be some kind of super team with a few new recruits this season, but we all should expect an improvement over 2025, and at least make finals. It's plainly obvious after just two games, that there are disconnects across the field and also from the coaching side of things. Even this early in the season, someone needs to get the Saints train back on the track.

 

[gringo2011]

Kornes and King surprisingly didn't torch us as much as I thought they would. I thought King's comment about Max Hall as our second best player at the moment and should be sent into the guts had merit.

And was on the news saying that Nas own the bench for 7 minutes in the final quarter was mind boggling. Again hard to argue against. Our coaches have had a couple of absolute crap weeks in the box.