VFL Saints vs Sandringham 11am today Sat. 10th

Aug 25, 2004
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We rated Clav really highly apparently, it was a no brainer to take him.
It’s the best drafting method in my opinion, just take the best player at your pick and the other stuff works itself out later on.
Browny may have 18 months left, Hugh is still nothing more than a big question mark and Austin at this stage is a good back up KPD.
Clav is still a long way off physically but investing in an intercepting KPD for the future is a very good move in my opinion.
You pretty much wrote exactly the same thing as I wrote but with a positive spin instead of a negative one.

It’s great for the future, but right now we need leg speed & fast ball carriers to take the next step IMHO now, not in 4-5yrs. Having 7 blokes that could be classified as KPDs on the list right now is overkill for mine (Brown, Carlisle, Goddard, Austin, Clavarino, Joyce & Marshall)

Agree that Clav is a great kid, let’s hope he becomes the next Rance
 

Stewart66

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Jul 27, 2014
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Would we have traded in Austin if we could predict the draft? Maybe, maybe not?
Supporters have been crying out for genuine KPD since Zac Dawson left, now we have 4, with 3 of them being youngsters. I have absolutely no problem in picking a player in the 30’s who can hopefully hold up our back line from 2022 onwards.

Happy with the thinking myself ..injury happens so they have cover if it does

In the past we had no cover and had every key forward in the land killed us.

Disappointed Paton got injured and Freeman as their leg speed & skill would change dynamic of team.
 
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Tommy Wigs

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Oct 10, 2012
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Our taking of Clavarino in the draft still has me very concerned considering we’ve added Goddard, Carlisle, Brown, Austin & now Clavarino, with even Rowan Marshall capable of playing back & Darragh Joyce.

Reading between the lines, I’d say the club believe Goddard is cooked & Brown only 18months left at best.

That really is an obscene number of KPDs on our list. Yet, we as supporters have all been banging on for 3 years that we need some pacy wingers, & we still haven’t recruited any. The mind truly boggles.

Picking up Phillips, Langlands, Paton & Coffield does nothing to ease my mind either because they aren’t even wingman. They are back flankers that we hope will become midfielders.

What I wouldn’t give for a Brayden Fiorini, Callum Ah Chee, Rory Atkins type
I’m a little bit the same, but I think I feel a little less rushed than you might, but can understand the urgency. There is still time to plug holes in the future and we should now be able to solely target speed and small forwards. Could have a draft or two of 3-4 mids each.

But I am concerned that we have loaded up on quite big (at least some that aren’t agile) talls and inside mids and lack pace and a ‘working’ small forward - all at a time when the exact opposite is happening in the game. Maybe it reverts back or stabilises and there is time to patch this up, but I’m not filled with verve at the moment.
 

Mikka84

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Happy with the thinking myself ..injury happens so they have cover if it happens.

In the past we had no cover and had every key forward in the land killed us.

Disappointed Paton got injured and Freeman as their leg speed & skill would change dynamic of team.
The thing we really need is outside leg speed. Both Paton and Freezer are burst speed like Steven. Nothing wrong with that at all, but we desperately lacking off the half back line and wings. Gut running, evasive speed. Langlands fits that criteria, but obviously needs to develop.

Really hoping a couple surprise and step up this year.
 
Jan 7, 2011
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The thing we really need is outside leg speed. Both Paton and Freezer are burst speed like Steven. Nothing wrong with that at all, but we desperately lacking off the half back line and wings. Gut running, evasive speed.
Have you noticed Nick Coffield? One of the very quickest in his draft crop and also one of the most evasive. Has excellent foot skills to boot.
 

VDS66

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Oct 4, 2011
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I’ve got to say it’s far from the best way of recruiting especially with later picks and taller players. You must take needs otherwise you could end up with many of the same. I am really worried about our recruiting in the last few years. Hopefully last year will be our best for a while


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Picking for needs when you don't rate a player is stupid. Fast track to bust.

For example the next player with speed might be worth a pick in the 60's so do you take him at 30?

Besides, I thought we picked for needs at 7 & 8.
 
Jan 10, 2011
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Picking for needs when you don't rate a player is stupid. Fast track to bust.

For example the next player with speed might be worth a pick in the 60's so do you take him at 30?

Besides, I thought we picked for needs at 7 & 8.

Well that’s pretty obvious but what if the next 5 players you rate are ruckmen or even fb. Needs should be later picks. Class should be early picks but obviously needs as well.


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Must admit it wasn’t until I became his player advocate that I had a real good look at him. Looks like he might have the goods & could be the steal of the draft.

Clavarino's U18 highlights vid is impressive. Looks a natural full back but with a bit of flair. Great mark, good decision-maker, careful disposal to advantage, will take a run. Like.

Our taking of Clavarino in the draft still has me very concerned considering we’ve added Goddard, Carlisle, Brown, Austin & now Clavarino, with even Rowan Marshall capable of playing back & Darragh Joyce.

Reading between the lines, I’d say the club believe Goddard is cooked & Brown only 18months left at best.

That really is an obscene number of KPDs on our list. Yet, we as supporters have all been banging on for 3 years that we need some pacy wingers, & we still haven’t recruited any. The mind truly boggles.

Picking up Phillips, Langlands, Paton & Coffield does nothing to ease my mind either because they aren’t even wingman. They are back flankers that we hope will become midfielders.

What I wouldn’t give for a Brayden Fiorini, Callum Ah Chee, Rory Atkins type

We rated Clav really highly apparently, it was a no brainer to take him.
It’s the best drafting method in my opinion, just take the best player at your pick and the other stuff works itself out later on.
Browny may have 18 months left, Hugh is still nothing more than a big question mark and Austin at this stage is a good back up KPD.
Clav is still a long way off physically but investing in an intercepting KPD for the future is a very good move in my opinion.

I was gutted we didn't take Constable at pick 35. Not that I have anything against Clavarino. But I reckon Constable is a genuine big game player, with an elite footy IQ. Maybe a little slow and his tank might need work, but I reckon he would have complemented Coffield & Clark beautifully this year. 191cm inside mid. Elite hands. Watching him accumulate 18 possesions and 8 marks today for Geelong against Essendon makes me desperately want to see Clavarino do well.
 
May 10, 2013
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I was gutted we didn't take Constable at pick 35. Not that I have anything against Clavarino. But I reckon Constable is a genuine big game player, with an elite footy IQ. Maybe a little slow and his tank might need work, but I reckon he would have complemented Coffield & Clark beautifully this year. 191cm inside mid. Elite hands. Watching him accumulate 18 possesions and 8 marks today for Geelong against Essendon makes me desperately want to see Clavarino do well.

I like you was also a Constable fan pre draft, so never really had a look at Clavarino, until much later after we took him. What I have seen in his highlights, I am impressed. Hopefully he proves the selectors were right.
 
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Mikka84

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Have you noticed Nick Coffield? One of the very quickest in his draft crop and also one of the most evasive. Has excellent foot skills to boot.
Exactly - and why he should be playing round one. Think Clark can only benefit playing as well. I’ve said it earlier, but I hate the bullsht answer of you earn your stripes in the reserves before getting a game. No, you give the guys that clearly have more talent than half this list already, senior experience.
 
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I like you was also a Constable fan pre draft, so never really had a look at Clavarino, until much later after we took him. What I have seen in his highlights, I am impressed. Hopefully he proves the selectors were right.
Yeah I am very hopeful as well and I am on record that I think Clavarino will eventually become a really important player for us. But Constable coming on quickly just adds a layer of torment to the way I experience the AFL. I wish that the Saints had of at least shown me a glimpse of Clavarino in the pre-season. Maybe in the AFLX?
 

Mikka84

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2 games struggled to get crowds and ratings so doubt they will go back to 3.
I went to the Carlton game and could not see a single thing in the second half because of the light.. doubt I’ll go next year if it’s a night game not at a major stadium. Not sure crowds can increase.. Is it just me or has most not watched the games on tv this year?.. I used to watch most pre season games as I love seeing the kids play from drafts gone by. This year has just seemed so dour..
 
Nov 10, 2013
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The $64 million question.

Does he feel Mav, Gilbert etc are crucial for us to reach finals? Personally, I don't think they get us there, so I'd far rather see the two C's played more often, with a look at Austin ( who's already played AFL) and some of the others like White etc as well.
We have to start giving some responsibility to the young guys, even if it means missing finals for one more year. They are the future, and playing the borderline players in the seniors just delays their development when they need to start getting senior games into them. Time to start taking some risks with selection.

My 2 cents worth.
Austin a bargain at six million. :D
I wonder if would have not made the Austin trade if we had of known Clav was going to be there at that pick - I have no problem with landing both as we are now hopefully set down back for the next 20 years
They both better start producing the next generation then.
 
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Jan 7, 2011
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Exactly - and why he should be playing round one. Think Clark can only benefit playing as well. I’ve said it earlier, but I hate the bullsht answer of you earn your stripes in the reserves before getting a game. No, you give the guys that clearly have more talent than half this list already, senior experience.
Well as I've said I think Coff is pretty much a lock for R1, but I definitely don't agree with the rest of the post.

Spencer White for instance had much more natural talent than most of our list, IMO, but it would have been a disastrous idea to throw him straight into the seniors and give him games before he'd earned it.

If someone is lazy in particular, I reckon the last thing you want to do is give them games before they've earned them, because I imagine it would only make it harder to get them to pull their finger out and maximise that talent.

I also remember hearing Bomber Thompson talking once about how Jimmy Bartel's mum was hounding Bomber to pick Jimmy early in his time at Geelong, as he was killing it in the VFL with loads of disposals, but not getting a game in the seniors, and Bomber told her he wouldn't pick him until he started running both ways.

It may be "bullshit" to you, but it seemed to work out OK for both Bartel and Geelong as a team.

It's a team sport and until they're willing to do the team things you don't just gift them games. Or you end up like GWS, who are super-talented, but who as a team have generally only run one way and who when the whips are really cracking get beaten by less talented groups, who play better as a team.

And they're a team overflowing with talent. Imagine a less talented group who were just gifted games before they'd proven they were willing to do the team things! They wouldn't get anywhere near it.
 
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Mikka84

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Well as I've said I think Coff is pretty much a lock for R1, but I definitely don't agree with the rest of the post.

Spencer White for instance had much more natural talent than most of our list, IMO, but it would have been a disastrous idea to throw him straight into the seniors and give him games before he'd earned it.

If someone is lazy in particular, I reckon the last thing you want to do is give them games before they've earned them, because I imagine it would only make it harder to get them to pull their finger out and maximise that talent.

I also remember hearing Bomber Thompson talking once about how Jimmy Bartel's mum was hounding Bomber to pick Jimmy early in his time at Geelong, as he was killing it in the VFL with loads of disposals, but not getting a game in the seniors, and Bomber told her he wouldn't pick him until he started running both ways.

It may be "bullshit" to you, but it seemed to work out OK for both Bartel and Geelong as a team.

It's a team sport and until they're willing to do the team things you don't just gift them games. Or you end up like GWS, who are super-talented, but who as a team have generally only run one way and who when the whips are really cracking get beaten by less talented groups, who play better as a team.

And they're a team overflowing with talent. Imagine a less talented group who were just gifted games before they'd proven they were willing to do the team things! They wouldn't get anywhere near it.
Spencer didn’t have more talent than the team. What they were hoping was he turned into a Buddy like player eventually.

So you want to play our prize picks running around in the 2’s until they “deserve” a game. How about developing them at senior level? Bird was a late pick and skinny rake that didn’t show much until later on. Bartel played round 1 and 11 our of 22 games in his first year - so that argument goes out the window.

End up like GWS hey? 2 prelim’s in years riddled by injury..

Let’s keep the same side then. Weller, Lonie, Wright, Minch ect ect until finally one of our kids plays enough games to ‘earn’ their spot.

Mediocrity at its best.
 
Apr 5, 2016
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Pace and x-factor would be nice.
Gresh is the only one in an otherwise vanilla list.

In fairness to the list I dont think any are continually encouraged or trained to take the game on and break it open with run. Plenty are capable of it, but its obvious they are trained which becomes instinct is to give it off by hands. Generally in close when their team mate is also under the pump.

You see the best midfielders their initial thought/movement is to break out into the clear regardless of traffic. That brings 2 or 3 opponents to them and makes space for team mates

Again the better coached teams and/or midfielders use handball but generally it is to a player outside the contest who can then run and deliver without pressure.

The way WE play the opposition knows to just sit off, because we are predicable and will hand ball regardless of positioning. Hence our movement is often under pressure resulting in a turnover.

Our coaches have stifled any natural run and carry which needs to come from all the midfielders not just Stuv. Often when we do run clear rather than kicking it forward they will again look for a handball - even handballing backwards. That is the time when they should be kicking long to the forwards in a one on one because the opposition hasnt had time to flood back. Key forwards need to do there job and separate.
 
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May 29, 2012
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I’ve got to say it’s far from the best way of recruiting especially with later picks and taller players. You must take needs otherwise you could end up with many of the same. I am really worried about our recruiting in the last few years. Hopefully last year will be our best for a while

Indeed taking 'best available' is what you do if you're picking at say #7 and you have a lot of gaps in the list so any of the projected players in the 7-12 range are probably fair choices.
But unless you're right at the start of a rebuild, you use mid to late picks for either guys you're willing to take a risk on (e.g. would have been taken higher if not for injury/character concerns) and hope for a bargain, but largely drafting for need. It's often why you see plenty of players like Clavarino taken in that area - teams need a player of that sort on the list to tuck away and develop. But we don't really have that.

The above all said, I still remember the day poor Jackson Ferguson was forced into making his debut and he made Aaron Black look like Plugger. I remember Roberton's first year as a starter and how he was having to play 3rd tall and people wanted him delisted as a Freo scrub. We need talls, we have been caught out too many times in the past, not least last year when Dempster retired and Goddard went down hurt - we are super lucky Carlisle or Brown didn't twist a knee and miss a month as I would think our only option then would have been Bruce to play at the back, and with McCartin on concussion sit-out presumably Marshall or Battle would have played more. Not that I personally see a lot wrong with the young lads getting games, but they need to be ready for it. Ferguson who I mentioned above was thrown to the lions as there was nobody else - I think Tom Lee and Beau Wilkes were already playing in that side!

So considering Joyce isn't close to earning an AFL start and Goddard's health can't be trusted, realistically we've got Brown and Carlisle with Austin and Goddard as the backups and Clavarino as the developing KPD who may get a game. If everyone's fit, we have too many. Hell one of them's gonna have to play forward for Sandy if they're all fit, and that is also not helping our player development.
But if we didn't have Austin, and Brown and Goddard were out hurt, we'd be starting Clavarino and Carlisle and I don't feel that secure about that setup.

What I have greater concern about is that every year our draft picks seem to leapfrog the previous year's. The Billings-Dunstan-Acres year was always expected to be good as Billings was obviously going to be an AFL 10-year player (arguably though we drafted him at 3 to be a midfield game-changer, and he's not he's a very good half-forward whose coach doesn't feel he can play mid), Dunstan was ready to play immediately yet has a hard ceiling, and Acres was big-bodied enough to also get games and give it a crack. Beyond that we've got players not contributing. And before that we've just got lots of misses. If Jimmy Webster and Nathan Wright are our success stories from drafts then that's a real worry, that's why we're heavily reliant on players coming from other clubs.
 
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