Roast Sam Davidson

[Wooden Robot]

Good luck to him; he played two good games, and suddenly he’s the next best thing.

I'll remind you of this when Samson Ryan finally [plays a half decent one, or one of the kids we drafted plays a good one and you are anointing them the next 250 gamer as happens on here.
He's played two good games .. yeah two more than a lot of our blokes.

 

[Wooden Robot]

You are right in a sense, but he’s another that would have filled a spot on the ground that we need to in the future. He was a miss and right under our nose. He’d be getting games for us now and in the future as at the very worst a solid contributor to our team.

It’s a miss considering he was right under our noses and blind Freddy was calling us to take a shot on him in the msd with our last pick.

Agree with most of that.
Yze would still be playing Dow ahead of him.

 

[Groupie_]

 

[prodigy]

I don't understand how people are trying to defend this.
It's a clear and obvious mistake by our recruiting team. It's okay to admit that.
You won't get your membership revoked.
You won't go to hell.
People still want to be your friend. It's okay.

He plays a position that we currently have Thomson Dow playing who is trying to save his career by adding another string to his bow. But he isn't a winger and we all know that. Everyone knows I love Sonsie but I'd prefer Davidson on the wing and last night showed why.
He is the perfect KMAC replacement even if it was only for a couple of years whilst we hit the draft.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I don't get this perspective. "He has played two good games" it's not like the sample size is 50... He has played a total of 3 games. Two of those games were excellent.

It's okay to say we got it wrong.

How wrong did we get it though?

He has 56 disposals in 3 games. 27 are handball receives, 12 are uncontested marks. He has one goal, two assists and 17 score involvements(this number is healthy.) His tackle numbers are decent 10 in 3 games.

In 3 matches he has one solitary hard ball get. This is around the lowest levels in the competition. That looks his kryptonite at this stage and in big games teams will be looking to exploit it. Richmond probably knew this. Dogs probably thought they could cope with a player like that in their system.

 

[Nostradumbass]

 

[prodigy]

How wrong did we get it though?

He has 56 disposals in 3 games. 27 are handball receives, 12 are uncontested marks. He has one goal, two assists and 17 score involvements(this number is healthy.) His tackle numbers are decent 10 in 3 games.

In 3 matches he has one solitary hard ball get. This is around the lowest levels in the competition. That looks his kryptonite at this stage and in big games teams will be looking to exploit it. Richmond probably knew this. Dogs probably thought they could cope with a player like that in their system.

Brother... You give me that statline and then focus on hard ball gets for an out and out winger?
I understand the need to try and rationalise everything but this is a mistake and it's okay to admit that.

 

[Muddiemoose]

Brother... You give me that statline and then focus on hard ball gets for an out and out winger?
I understand the need to try and rationalise everything but this is a mistake and it's okay to admit that.

But isn’t that just it
He’s a good winger that’s it

We have a few young wingers as it stands who are developing in the role nicely and in terms of our actual list it’s far from the priority in our list build

We have Banks, Ralphsmith, Trezise already completing for the position and that’s before we look at others who could push into that role in the future like Brown, Trainor or even Smillie

Not to mention whoever else we get as our list turns over naturally anyway

Good win for the dogs but in context of where we are and what we have not really a loss for us

 

[LTT]

It has everything to do with managing primary list spots and 2024 draft picks. At the time of the MSD we had contracts in front of four out of contract players (Baker, Graham, Pickett and Dusty), plus seven 2024 national draft picks.

At the end of the 2024 season, those MSD guys need to go on to the rookie list; which was already full at the time. Which means you either cut a rookie guy you don’t want to cut (one or more of Tresize, Campbell, Bauer, Young, LeFau) or promote them to the primary list and run the risk of losing a national draft pick (you can’t take more picks to the draft than you have list spots).

So worse case scenario from a list management standpoint is you have four guys re-signing, and 2-3 guys you need to promote to the primary list (or cut some of those mentioned above). We know hindsight that 0 of the 4 OOC players signed on for 2025, but that wasn’t known at the time.

I’m sure there are those that will say well why did you keep Dow and KMac, the response to that is there was a reason they were the last two re-signed. I suspect that if Dusty or Pickett went around again, or Baker and Graham decided not to go west both would have been delisted.

Some may also say ‘what about Bolton and Rioli’s list spots being free’ but both were contracted (IF it was known they’d request a move at the time of the MSD), and even if you did move them, it would be for draft capital which at the very least would mean you can’t fill those spots with a rookie list promotion as they’re needed for the very picks you get in return.

You can argue that Davidson should have been over Gray or that the third pick they took and didn’t use due to the risk of list spots (I.e. no player being deemed worthy to justify the risk to list spots) was the wrong decision at the time; but at the end of the day there were very logical reasons at the time only two picks were used.



Two of which (D’Ambrossio and Durham) we had no chance of selecting in their respective MSD years.

At the time of the MSD we didn’t have 7 2024 national draft picks. Most of those picks only came once Rioli, Bolton and Graham decided to go. However if we had picked Davidson and he had succeeded then we could have traded for a future pick or brought forward the retirement of KMac or delisted Dow. At least we would be making the decision.

 

[Sir_Loin]

Haha. That’s funny given you’re the dumbest poster in the history of the internet

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Brother... You give me that statline and then focus on hard ball gets for an out and out winger?
I understand the need to try and rationalise everything but this is a mistake and it's okay to admit that.

He totally squibbed at least one contest last night, and was a bit weak in some others I saw. How would you feel if he did that in a Richmond jumper? The club would have given him proper consideration. Nobody took him in the MSD - why do you think that was?

He has looked good getting plenty of the ball, with some really good passages of play and some impressive running, but he is not a player type that Richmond likes. And taking on a questionable guy as a 23yo after putting about 5 years into teaching a player like Ralphsmith to run in straight lines, long way to go before this decision can be seen as a franked error.

 

[tiger_tough]

How wrong did we get it though?

He has 56 disposals in 3 games. 27 are handball receives, 12 are uncontested marks. He has one goal, two assists and 17 score involvements(this number is healthy.) His tackle numbers are decent 10 in 3 games.

In 3 matches he has one solitary hard ball get. This is around the lowest levels in the competition. That looks his kryptonite at this stage and in big games teams will be looking to exploit it. Richmond probably knew this. Dogs probably thought they could cope with a player like that in their system.

Did you actually watch him last night? He plays the modern wing position perfectly. And he's not a squib either.

 

[tiger_tough]

It's a massive blunder. There's no disputing that.

 

[RockJobster0312]

We could have signed two more guys on 6 month contracts though, and delisted them if they didn't show enough.

If we'd done that with the Doc, it likely means Dow would have been delisted.

The only players in the MSD who would show enough within six months are ex-AFL players. Despite the six month or 18 month contract nomination date, clubs generally take these guys with the intention of being on the list into the next season. Toce said as much after the MSD.

We tend to underestimate the jump from State leagues to AFL level. And the MSD guys don’t have the benefit of a pre-season to learn the coaches, clubs or teammates. Take Tresize in the 2023 MSD who is probably the most comparable as being already on the VFL team list at the time he was drafted, he debuted in the very last round of the AFL season in 2023. It’s just too hard to judge a player in six months.

It also doesn’t solve the math problem at the time of the MSD. If just one of Baker, Dusty, Graham and Pickett stayed; Dow would have likely been de-listed regardless. If two stayed, you’d assume next delisting was McIntosh. So if you take four guys in the MSD and want to keep them all - or even three of them - AND the four guys OOC stay; who are the players making way? If you assume the club had an inkling that Grimes’ and Naismith’s would retire that’s only one spot (one would have automatically gone to Miller who had one more year on the rookie list but a two year contract so needed to be promoted). If you also assume that Coulthard and Cumberland had a pencil through them, that’s still four list spots (three primary and one rookie). Adding Dow and McIntosh to that still leaves two guys you need to delist. The two list spots that would have been used in the MSD if we used all four.

There are no excuses. You can write 100 lines about it but it’s very simple.

There was a list spot available for 6 months to give a VFL player a taste.

and everyone here suggested exactly who.

When that guy is getting compared to Peter Matera in his 3rd game,
You can see the magnitude of the balls up

See above. How many of MSD picks that are not ex-AFL players get delisted after six months if that’s their nominated period? Very few (I can’t think of any readily off hand).

The fact is also that no one picked him up in the MSD either is something we can’t ignore.

I couldn’t give two hoots about who players are being compared to (especially after three games; and c’mon Matera? That’s laughable). Who were we comparing Dean Polo to after his first game?

At the time of the MSD we didn’t have 7 2024 national draft picks. Most of those picks only came once Rioli, Bolton and Graham decided to go. However if we had picked Davidson and he had succeeded then we could have traded for a future pick or brought forward the retirement of KMac or delisted Dow. At least we would be making the decision.

Yes we did.

Our own first, second and third round picks.

Fremantle second round pick (via Port - Soldo trade).

Fremantle third round pick (traded back in the 2023 National Draft)

West Coast third round pick (traded back in the 2023 National draft).

Essendon fourth round pick (via Collingwood and traded in during the 2023 National draft).

Most of these get combined and in the deals for Brisbane’s first, and I think one or two were included in the Rioli deal.

 

[rfctigerarmy]

At the time we knew this bloke is a gun, how do we let him go????

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Did you actually watch him last night? He plays the modern wing position perfectly. And he's not a squib either.

Watched the whole game, he generally played well.

Watch the passage of play 11:47 remaining q2 and tell me he didn’t seriously squib that contest. Every player in the AFL will now be told you run straight at the ball hard he will jump out of the way, until he proves otherwise.

 

[baazzaa]

It also doesn’t solve the math problem at the time of the MSD. If just one of Baker, Dusty, Graham and Pickett stayed; Dow would have likely been de-listed regardless. If two stayed, you’d assume next delisting was McIntosh. So if you take four guys in the MSD and want to keep them all - or even three of them - AND the four guys OOC stay; who are the players making way? If you assume the club had an inkling that Grimes’ and Naismith’s would retire that’s only one spot (one would have automatically gone to Miller who had one more year on the rookie list but a two year contract so needed to be promoted). If you also assume that Coulthard and Cumberland had a pencil through them, that’s still four list spots (three primary and one rookie). Adding Dow and McIntosh to that still leaves two guys you need to delist. The two list spots that would have been used in the MSD if we used all four.

Campbell Gray was almost intentionally a player we were going to test out for 6 months partly due to how injury-depleted we were. We surely had an inkling we'd be drafting at least 2 much more promising KPFs the following draft. So take 3, drop him, no maths problem.

But it's missing the broader point, the problem is we got into this situation with garbage list management.

Samson Ryan's contract extension was a joke. 7 year contract for hopper when he wasn't a FA was a joke. Warehousing players like Cumberland for year after year while not playing him in the ones was a joke (I liked Cumberland and thought he should have been given more of a run, but keeping people on the list for years as a consolation prize for not playing them is dreadful). Every player retires a year or two late.

We bled fringe players when we had a good list, and now we have the worst list in the comp but have no room to pick up fringe players from other teams (Kozi being the only one through our rebuild iirc). It's easy to say our recruiters are making mistakes but all recruiters make mistakes, the bigger issue is that our recruiters are getting fewer opportunities to find hidden gems than recruiters from other clubs because our list is constipated.

 

[tigs2010]

Looking for this second good game people are talking about

 

[NaturalDisaster]

Could it have been a personality/attitude thing? Maybe he constantly clashed with our VFL coaches? (I don't follow the VFL side as much so forgive me if I am showing ignorance)

Just thinking maybe there were other factors as to why we did not pick him.

 

[fargothegreat]

Watch the passage of play 11:47 remaining q2 and tell me he didn’t seriously squib that contest. Every player in the AFL will now be told you run straight at the ball hard he will jump out of the way, until he proves otherwise.

Being a very uncontested player is definitely his biggest knock.

 

[Forensi Tiger]

Watched the whole game, he generally played well.

Watch the passage of play 11:47 remaining q2 and tell me he didn’t seriously squib that contest. Every player in the AFL will now be told you run straight at the ball hard he will jump out of the way, until he proves otherwise.

Jayden Short - built a career on not getting hard balls as did Wayne Campbell
Houli wasn’t much of a tackler or hard ball winner and recall taking short steps early in his career with us

 

[Handsuper47]

Would people be singing his praises so highly if Carlton didn't collapse in the second half of the game?

 

[Groupie_]

Could it have been a personality/attitude thing? Maybe he constantly clashed with our VFL coaches? (I don't follow the VFL side as much so forgive me if I am showing ignorance)

Just thinking maybe there were other factors as to why we did not pick him.

like how you clash with the tan posters ?

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Jayden Short - built a career on not getting hard balls as did Wayne Campbell
Houli wasn’t much of a tackler or hard ball winner and recall taking short steps early in his career with us

There are levels of it. Jumping aside when you would have been first to the ball and letting the opponent get an uncontested possession without even slightly impeding him, that is about the worst thing you can do in footy. It is death. The Tigers VFL coaches may have tried to fix it and concluded it couldn’t be fixed, reported that to our recruiters who rightly put a line through his name.

We have had a few players who weren’t exactly hard nuts as you say, but they would have been meeting certain minimum standards in that area.

 

[RockJobster0312]

Campbell Gray was almost intentionally a player we were going to test out for 6 months partly due to how injury-depleted we were. We surely had an inkling we'd be drafting at least 2 much more promising KPFs the following draft. So take 3, drop him, no maths problem.

But it's missing the broader point, the problem is we got into this situation with garbage list management.

Samson Ryan's contract extension was a joke. 7 year contract for hopper when he wasn't a FA was a joke. Warehousing players like Cumberland for year after year while not playing him in the ones was a joke (I liked Cumberland and thought he should have been given more of a run, but keeping people on the list for years as a consolation prize for not playing them is dreadful). Every player retires a year or two late.

We bled fringe players when we had a good list, and now we have the worst list in the comp but have no room to pick up fringe players from other teams (Kozi being the only one through our rebuild iirc). It's easy to say our recruiters are making mistakes but all recruiters make mistakes, the bigger issue is that our recruiters are getting fewer opportunities to find hidden gems than recruiters from other clubs because our list is constipated.

I don’t think that was the case at all regarding Gray. In fact I think it was the exact opposite. Having never been part of an elite football pathway, it was always going to be a longer burn for Gray. If it was just for six months as you say then he surely would have been let go after his 8 week hammy was suffered.

Also again, Toce said immediately after the MSD that we were looking beyond the 6 month contracts.

The rest of your post is a totally different discussion; but for what it’s worth I wouldn’t necessarily disagree with large parts of your post.

I think we have tried to thread the needle with keeping the experience vets from our premierships years, bringing in young guys with (by and large) later picks and putting too much reliance on the mid-to-late 20s brigade that didnt perform to the level needed to bridge the gap between the young and the vets.

Needed all to go right and basically none of it did.

I have a general anathema towards long term contracts (anything 5+ years), but in terms of Hopper, even if it was for a more standard contract, he still would be on the list during last years MSD.

Similar with Ryan. Not sure we’ll ever find out why it was three years over two (but we tend to forget these are negotiations), but he’d still be on the list regardless at the MSD. Even if he wasn’t, it would be likely that there would be another ruck on the list at some the time (went and got Naismith with Ryan already on the list).

And the likes of Cumberland, it’s always a fine line with young guys, for every two that stay too long you feel there’s one that’s let go to early.

Last thing is that by the nature of the AFL’s required list strategy; you’re always going to have list cloggers. Needing to make three changes minimum per year will dig into that. Think we probably have more than the usual to be fair, but the process takes years