Toast Sam Menegola

[Cursed Cat]

When you are an inside midfielder you dont really get excuses unless there is a total ruck domination.

If an inside mid isnt winning the ball and disposing of it well then it impacts the rest of the team. It's his job to win it and get it to the guys who are impact players, if he cant do that well enough then he failed his job.

I don't think I offered up any excuses for Menegola's performances in my post. I've been disappointed in him in those losses myself; I like the way he plays; at his best he is good to watch.

I wanted him to do well, but I totally acknowledge that he has pretty much failed to show up in 3 of his 5 finals - I too distinctly remember wondering where the hell he was during at least a couple of those finals; he just disappeared for long stretches when I'd have expected him to be doing the grunt work at stoppages.

But again; he wasn't Robinson Crusoe nor the Lone Ranger, he had the vast majority of the team for company as being a disappointment.

If anything your post suggests you make some excuse for subpar performances from players who are not inside midfielders; blokes like Henderson and Tuohy though follow the same pattern as Menegola; good in the win against Sydney, poor in the losses to Richmond and Adelaide (with Henderson poor last year against Sydney too, same as Menegola - of course Tuohy wasn't around then ..) - I don't give Henderson nor Tuohy any more leeway than I do Menegola simply because they play in defense ... I just chose those two as random examples on a positional basis, but really, most of the team follow the same amazing pattern of being good in the wins but poor in the losses ..

 

[catempire]

All statistical rankings are objective, but it's also important to understand how and why players are ranked because there's still always ways for them to be skewed. It's no coincidence that so many on that list are young, or improving in the 400 range to 100-odd. I'm not a big fan of the player ratings for these reasons, but it is worth noting that by position and age Sammy is the most above average out of all Geelong players under 25. He's coming along well.

I must admit I'm shaking my head a little. So your gripe with the improvement rankings is that those lower down the rankings are more likely to have improved than those higher in the rankings? Oh... kay...

Again, line up all the players who played 130% more games and see how they fare. Remove that variable if you like...

 

[cynical]

Haha. Age fetish. Go find Bobby.

deflection

as usual

 

[catempire]

deflection

as usual

Cynical would have sacked Joel Corey after the 2005 Semi Final. Deflect that.

 

[year of the cat]

I think the answer with Menegola - trade or not trade is somewhere in the middle. Personally I'd prefer to keep him and don't think he'll be traded in any case for the reasons Pure_Ownage suggested.

But to suggest he is "untradable" for ability reasons is ridiculous. I'd only have J.Selwood, Dangerfield, Duncan, Henderson and Hawkins as being "untradeable" from our current team. Menegola will never be an A-grader. He just doesn't have the class. But he is already a very useful 2nd tier player that can hopefully iron out a few significant flaws in his game.

It would have to take a very good offer to get Menegola for mine but if it came along you'd have to look at it.

 

[Spazz Cat]

??Catempire says Menegola is better than Joel Corey!

 

[Daniel McL]

??Catempire says Menegola is better than Joel Corey!

Where did he say that?

 

[David the Cat]

??Catempire says Menegola is better than Joel Corey!

Fake news....

 

[Spazz Cat]

Where did he say that?

Nowhere. I thought we could just say people said s**t now when they didn't.

 

[catempire]

I think the answer with Menegola - trade or not trade is somewhere in the middle. Personally I'd prefer to keep him and don't think he'll be traded in any case for the reasons Pure_Ownage suggested.

But to suggest he is "untradable" for ability reasons is ridiculous. I'd only have J.Selwood, Dangerfield, Duncan, Henderson and Hawkins as being "untradeable" from our current team. Menegola will never be an A-grader. He just doesn't have the class. But he is already a very useful 2nd tier player that can hopefully iron out a few significant flaws in his game.

It would have to take a very good offer to get Menegola for mine but if it came along you'd have to look at it.

I get what you are saying YOTC but what is the point of dealing with anything other than reality? In reality there are only ten or so "tradeable" players on your list each year, in a literal sense because "tradeable" is not the same as "expendable". Is Menegola expendable? Yes, of course. But is he going to be traded? Well of course not, for reasons that have been well worn here.

Maybe it's semantics but so much wasted effort goes on suggesting trades that are no change to occur in reality.

 

[cynical]

I don't think I offered up any excuses for Menegola's performances in my post. I've been disappointed in him in those losses myself; I like the way he plays; at his best he is good to watch.

I wanted him to do well, but I totally acknowledge that he has pretty much failed to show up in 3 of his 5 finals - I too distinctly remember wondering where the hell he was during at least a couple of those finals; he just disappeared for long stretches when I'd have expected him to be doing the grunt work at stoppages.

But again; he wasn't Robinson Crusoe nor the Lone Ranger, he had the vast majority of the team for company as being a disappointment.

If anything your post suggests you make some excuse for subpar performances from players who are not inside midfielders; blokes like Henderson and Tuohy though follow the same pattern as Menegola; good in the win against Sydney, poor in the losses to Richmond and Adelaide (with Henderson poor last year against Sydney too, same as Menegola - of course Tuohy wasn't around then ..) - I don't give Henderson nor Tuohy any more leeway than I do Menegola simply because they play in defense ... I just chose those two as random examples on a positional basis, but really, most of the team follow the same amazing pattern of being good in the wins but poor in the losses ..

You were saying others played bad also but as an inside mid Menegola's role is more pivotal.

I never rated Henderson or Tuohys games, they were both very mediocre but they arent going to get dropped for team balance. If they were fringe players they would be talked about more.

It's not just the players anyway its the game plan and structures that dont hold up in finals. Too many talls and too many players without good skills.

I'm not fussed about Menegola either way, I've been on the rebuild bandwagon for a longtime.

 

[Mr Meow]

According to AFL Player Ratings, Menegola was the 5th most improved player in the AFL in 2017:

Like many: great H&A season, probably 2/3 hit rate. 1/3 hit rate in finals.

 

[year of the cat]

I get what you are saying YOTC but what is the point of dealing with anything other than reality? In reality there are only ten or so "tradeable" players on your list each year, in a literal sense because "tradeable" is not the same as "expendable". Is Menegola expendable? Yes, of course. But is he going to be traded? Well of course not, for reasons that have been well worn here.

Maybe it's semantics but so much wasted effort goes on suggesting trades that are no change to occur in reality.

This is BigFooty CE. We deal in reality and everything else! Got to fill in the time somehow!

 

[Daniel McL]

Nowhere. I thought we could just say people said s**t now when they didn't.

Hey don't call me fat!

 

[catempire]

This is BigFooty CE. We deal in reality and everything else! Got to fill in the time somehow!

True dat. Let's just fill in some of that time with calling s**t ideas s**t, eh?

 

[David the Cat]

True dat. Let's just fill in some of that time with calling s**t ideas s**t, eh?

Well that's a s**t idea......

 

[catempire]

Well that's a s**t idea......

 

[year of the cat]

I get what you are saying YOTC but what is the point of dealing with anything other than reality? In reality there are only ten or so "tradeable" players on your list each year, in a literal sense because "tradeable" is not the same as "expendable". Is Menegola expendable? Yes, of course. But is he going to be traded? Well of course not, for reasons that have been well worn here.

Maybe it's semantics but so much wasted effort goes on suggesting trades that are no change to occur in reality.

Just in that I think player movement is already more unpredictable than ever before. Players have far less of a sense of loyalty and "play for the jumper" than ever before. Clubs are ruthless with their list management and I think players more and more are following suit.

It was refreshing to see Dusty stay at the Tigers and Kelly at GWS having said that. But both were seriously considering other offers.

Even we saw Caddy unexpectedly move last season when I'm sure none of us saw that coming. And look what a fine decision that has turned out to be.

So I'm not so sure the current paradigm of player retention/movement is the same as what it was only a few years ago. Attitudes have very quickly changed.

For the worse unfortunately.

 

[year of the cat]

True dat. Let's just fill in some of that time with calling s**t ideas s**t, eh?

Let's call them alternative ideas.

I quite like the diversity of opinion when we aren't going so well. Can't wait until we drop out of the eight!

 

[catempire]

Just in that I think player movement is already more unpredictable than ever before. Players have far less of a sense of loyalty and "play for the jumper" than ever before. Clubs are ruthless with their list management and I think players more and more are following suit.

It was refreshing to see Dusty stay at the Tigers and Kelly at GWS having said that. But both were seriously considering other offers.

Even we saw Caddy unexpectedly move last season when I'm sure none of us saw that coming. And look what a fine decision that has turned out to be.

So I'm not so sure the current paradigm of player retention/movement is the same as what it was only a few years ago. Attitudes have very quickly changed.

For the worse unfortunately.

Completely agree. I still think we have a fairly good idea of what is within the bounds of likelihood and what is not though.

 

[year of the cat]

Completely agree. I still think we have a fairly good idea of what is within the bounds of likelihood and what is not though.

True.

 

[catempire]

Let's call them alternative ideas.

Eek. Dangerously close to "alternative facts"!

 

[Partridge]

Cynical would have sacked Joel Corey after the 2005 Semi Final. Deflect that.

Sorry, missed that part, where was that statement made?

On the subject, I thought Corey had iffy disposal for a good while into his career. But I can't recall him panicking under pressure like Menegola has in the last two finals series.

 

[catempire]

Sorry, missed that part, where was that statement made?

On the subject, I thought Corey had iffy disposal for a good while into his career. But I can't recall him panicking under pressure like Menegola has in the last two finals series.

I'm not surprised your recollection is iffy.

 

[David the Cat]

Sorry, missed that part, where was that statement made?

On the subject, I thought Corey had iffy disposal for a good while into his career. But I can't recall him panicking under pressure like Menegola has in the last two finals series.

I'd suggest that at one time or another, every sub 50 game player has panicked under pressure. It's part of developing as a footballer.

Very very few arrive on the scene the complete (dare I say it) package....