Coach Sam Mitchell's direction for the club and 2022 news

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offtherails9

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Yeah, I think the group actually needed to learn how to attack again. * we were stagnant and crap in the last few Clarko years.
We've hit over 100 a couple times at least this year which has just been awesome.
Plus, how many games have we had with our full strength back line? I would argue it's not many. Would be interesting to see how we would have fared with CJ in the team for the month of losses we just had.
A few of our conceded goals on the weekend game from miscommunication and lack of intent imo.
 

theiaofseed

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When did i mention Clarkson. His time was up. Sam was the right choice going forward. We needed a change. You mentioned Richmond and Melbourne two of the best defensive teams in the modern era. Richmond's whole game was to presure the ball carrier into mistakes and score on the counter. They defended first. Anyways we r not Richmond or Melbourne we will need our own defensive method. I think we will leave it there because i can see this is all going to lead back to clarkson
I never mention Richmond??

You didn't and I never claimed you did, Hawthorn with the same list which one is more likely to win, Clarkson's defensive mindset or Mitchell attacking? The answer youre refusing to give is exactly why defense first is outdated.

Melbourne didn't start as a defensive first unit, you can't point to a completed product and say see see.
 

wahawk

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Nah, he was. He started off saying that there’s no longer term strategy with what Sam is doing.
He didn’t say that at all.
He said “I just wonder what his end game is”

In other words ‘I’m too dumb to know how to coach or even think like a coach’
That’s why he’s in the media.

He also said, while discussing the attacking style, “we like it”

I know a lot of posters want to pot anyone essendone (me included cause I really dislike the club) & anyone in the media but what he said & the tone, context it was said in was not disrespectful at all
 
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wahawk

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For those saying that Lloyd didn’t mean much by it and that he’s been positive, only two weeks ago he said that we’re “in for a lot of pain for the rest of this season now, I think they’ll struggle to win too many other games for the rest of this year”.

Lloyd flips and flops and while he generally is quite ok with his observations most weeks he also is prone to saying some pretty dumb s**t.
Can’t argue with that one 😜
 

rogiebear93

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I don't think our defence has suffered as much as most in here are implying.

We average more Oppo I50s than every other club besides West Coast and North, who are performing far worse than we are. We also average the most centre clearances against by a significant margin, at close to 16 a game, which means that we're still winning games against good opposition despite having significant D50 entries take place with no ability to flood back due to the 6-6-6 rule.

We're exceeding where we should be both defensively and offensively, and it's hard for me to see this getting much worse for us particularly because we couldn't get much worse with our competitiveness through the middle of the ground. It's still a big weakness, as it has been for a long time.
 

TheFourPillars

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I never mention Richmond??

You didn't and I never claimed you did, Hawthorn with the same list which one is more likely to win, Clarkson's defensive mindset or Mitchell attacking? The answer youre refusing to give is exactly why defense first is outdated.

Melbourne didn't start as a defensive first unit, you can't point to a completed product and say see see.
Melbourne only became a premiership threat when they started defending well. Till then they were not. When did i say defense first? I said to win a premiership u need to defend. And if u see my posts in here we needed the change up to get the players to buy in. Defending will and must come in for us to threaten for silverware
 

kirbatron

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For those saying that Lloyd didn’t mean much by it and that he’s been positive, only two weeks ago he said that we’re “in for a lot of pain for the rest of this season now, I think they’ll struggle to win too many other games for the rest of this year”.

Lloyd flips and flops and while he generally is quite ok with his observations most weeks he also is prone to saying some pretty dumb s**t.

and two weeks before that he said the media had underrated our young players.

flip flop

take what the media say with a grain of salt excluding joey montagna who is cool
 

MasterSamurai

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İn time:
1 gorilla Backman
1 tap ruckman
1 centre clearances bull (or worpel back in form or a rapid rise from ward/MacDonald)
Will make us extremely hard to score against as we'll be doing most of the scoring the other way. Sam and the coaches know this. Bit of patience .
 

Argy

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I think there is also an element of truth to the fact that if you just focus on defending, especially with a young group, you get very defensive minded, you give yourself no chance of winning games, and that eventually starts to ingrain itself into your culture. It also becomes very hard to watch, which in turn creates even more negativity from the membership and club/board.

Agreed. Look at Melbourne under Roos. Set them back years.
 

rogiebear93

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İn time:
1 gorilla Backman
1 tap ruckman
1 centre clearances bull (or worpel back in form or a rapid rise from ward/MacDonald)
Will make us extremely hard to score against as we'll be doing most of the scoring the other way. Sam and the coaches know this. Bit of patience .
No thanks to the gorilla backman, of all the ways we get scored against it's rarely if ever by a big forward. If it is by a big forward, it's sheer luck - see Ben Brown.

All we need is some good two way running through the midfield and on the wings.
 

SammyC

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Being in the bottom few for points against is one of the most reliable indicators of a team that is contending.

I think there is an element of us being prepared to roll the dice and take risks in moving the ball because we have a strong defensive unit that stands up ok on turnover, but we aren't going anywhere if we concede more than 100 points regularly.

I think for us the missing ingredient is the midfield - we win the ball in the contest and at centre bounce, we won't concede as many I50s and our defence will do their job and keep the opposition to a low enough score. Then if we move the ball as we are when the ball in our hands, we will have the forwards who can kick a score.

So fast track Newcombe, Ward, Macdonald and Nash, and find some genuine wingmen in the Smith, Hill or even Hendo mould.
 

Judd2Sewell

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I think that’s all he meant. Lloyd has mostly said really good things about Sam this year.

Personally I think it’s all part of Sam’s long term vision to try and teach the younger guys attack first with a view to tie it all back in the next few seasons.

Exactly. Lloyd has been complimentary of Mitchell and the Hawks recently. This is another overreaction.
 

The hands of stone

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Lloyd flip flops more than a cheap pair of servo thongs .
Guy is trying to protect his own rabble of a club at the minute .

Kane Cornes the logical voice of reason , who would have thought 😄
 

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Yardie

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The 6 6 6 has nothing to do with defending. Attacking from the middle of the ground doesnt mean you will always score and as soon as you have a stoppage you see the game change. Watching every final last year. This lesson is true. The major reason for Melbourne being the powerhouse that it is, is the team defending. When they are on they are hard to transition against. Time will tell i guess. We wont know until we r the finished product and we r not anywhere near that yet
When we played Melbourne it was when players held the game up that allowed them to set-up well in defense. In particular Melbourne were able to fill in the holes to stop the leading players. They are are so well drilled that once you stopped you were screwed.

Move the ball in quicker, believe in your forwards and get some forward pressure to lock it in and you have a completely different set-up.
 

TheFourPillars

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Agreed. Look at Melbourne under Roos. Set them back years

When we played Melbourne it was when players held the game up that allowed them to set-up well in defense. In particular Melbourne were able to fill in the holes to stop the leading players. They are are so well drilled that once you stopped you were screwed.

Move the ball in quicker, believe in your forwards and get some forward pressure to lock it in and you have a completely different set-up.
Look we played well against melbourne but In all honesty Melbourne were not chugging at 100%. They were cruising for most of the night did what they had to do. its been the same virtually all season. Yes moving the ball quickly is always going to help but i thought the best thing to come out of that game going forward apart from the scoreline was Finns defensive job on fly boy on the wing it was really impressive hope he can get back into the side soon
 

SammyC

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I actually reckon our defensive systems, structure and personnel are generally good. We just put it under extreme pressure by turning the ball over in dangerous positions and losing clearances.

I'd stick with what we are doing. We have shown we can score & I reckon we can defend when not under siege. We just need to tip the midfield more in our favour and get back to elite forward pressure to not let it out once we get it down there.

But as Sam says, not the finished product yet.
 
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Yardie

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Look we played well against melbourne but In all honesty Melbourne were not chugging at 100%. They were cruising for most of the night did what they had to do. its been the same virtually all season. Yes moving the ball quickly is always going to help but i thought the best thing to come out of that game going forward apart from the scoreline was Finns defensive job on fly boy on the wing it was really impressive hope he can get back into the side soon
Don't agree with this at all. Cruising is what they did to North Melbourne on the weekend. 10 point wins are not cruising.
 

Hawker55

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There was an interesting comment by Craig McCrae the other day - I can't find it now, but basically he said when he was at Hawthorn he had to do a lot more as an assistant coach because there were less coaches (assume because Clarko's wage and soft cap). At the Pies there's a few more personnel around. I don't begrudge Clarko his wage - he certainly earned it, but it was a long way from taking a pay cut to get Andrew Russell on board.

I feel whichever club he goes to next has to be on the cusp of a window, as he's not going to spend 5 years building a list again.
 

burger09

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The media go on and on about how it's the coaches who should change the game back to attacking footy and they are all keener to stop a goal then kick a goal. Anytime you get an attacking coach they should talk them up.
And not glorify those, who for all intense and purposes tried to kill our game as a spectical, as tactical geniuses. (Roos and Lyon)
 

JaegarTime

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I am still unsure where we are at. Mitchell has the playing an attacking plan. Thats great it builds comradrie and wins and culture and its very attractive and exciting. However it is not sustainable. H e will need to adjust to being more defensive. I know some here will fly off the handle at this but it is not sustainable playing the way we do to win everything. Finals are rarely scoring fests. They are generally won by great defensive structures and intensity. Its always been that way. We concede way too many goals when the opposition get a run on.

Its why i was pretty happy that we started in defence first we still need another gorilla defender besides the hole in the middle of the ground.

Looking forward to the next few years. What Cornes has said is largely accurate. We are still in a so called honeymoon period for me i am going to enjoy this period. There is really no pressure on the players or coaches but it will change over the next few years as coaches start tweaking to play us and stop us as we improve.

Agreed, Carlton under Teague just went full attack but no defence. Need to find a balance

Not too worried yet. Think Sam is smart enough to find that
 

eldorado

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Not really disrespectful in the context in which he said it - that he's allowing the team to be aggressive etc. with our ball movement.
I did detect a subtext that all he's really doing is letting them go out with the instruction "Ok, boys, loosen the shackles, play your natural game" with not much else going on.
 

burger09

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Facts are, IF we can find enough gun players, Sam seems as likely as any young coach to steer them on the path to reaching their potential.

His coaching career, so far, appears to be occy strapped to the back of a long shot from the bush who could be one of the greatest stories our club has seen since a slow, short, blonde, overlooked kid became a Hall of Famer.
 
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2OLD 2SLOW

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I actually reckon our defensive systems, structure and personnel are generally good. We just put it under extreme pressure by turning the ball over in dangerous positions and losing clearances.
100% SammyC

The sustainability chatter is just wishful thinking (BS) as far as I'm concerned.

If we'd been moving the ball cautiously and dominating clearances in 2022, I'd be worried about sustainability (ie. what happens when ...)
But the only way is up for clearances and ball use (and our young team has nowhere near mastered team defense) - all of which will help protect our defenders.

And we've played the best attacking teams in the comp (based on Points For) - Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Richmond, Carlton, Geelong - for a combined average losing margin of 17.4 points across five of them, and in the other we beat Brisbane by 5.

I can be as pessimistic as the next bloke sometimes, but WTF Lloyd defenders.

I think we play a well-rounded game that is competitive, good to watch and through which our youngsters look to be developing nicely. What more could you ask for from the coach of a non-finals contender?

And FWIW, Hawks 2022 remind me of Brisbane 2018, when Chris Fagan had them playing an efficient, ballsy, attacking brand of footy that guess what ... turned out to be quite sustainable (2nd, 2nd, 4th, ?).

And if you check out the ladder from that year, Brisbane conceded plenty (4th most).

1653379406180.png

So in conclusion, Matthew Lloyd can eat something big, fat and better not mentioned.

RANT ENDS.
 

Hawkers Hero

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I think the talk of our defensive deficiencies is over egged to be honest, especially if you factor in our very poor midfield (duke excepted).

If you do an analysis of our opponents score compared to their average score this year it is really only St Kilda, Essendon and Richmond that got a hold of us this year compared to everyone else - every other opponent has been held to less than average or within a goal of average. I don't think it is a coincidence that those three are our worst performing offensive games this year (excl North)

Essentially, where we can play our offensive game we are more successful in scoring than a typical team and at the same time we typically hold that team to a lower than average score.
 

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