Coach Sam Mitchell's direction for the club

[Pessimistic]

I assume it would be a 5 year plan to start contending? Which would age out some of our better older players. JOM (32), Titch and Wings (both 33) would be on their last legs.

What 5 years does do is have our younger players about to come into their primes.

I’d guess Mitch wants to set himself for long term success, even if that means a bit of short term gain given some of his comments, especially around hitting the draft.

our current football director vandnburg was as instrumental in the 2008 flag as anyone, even though he had retired by then/

I’m guessing it’s not a simple ‘let’s project their ages’ decision

 

[Pessimistic]

Where has it been said anywhere that we were going to top up and trade in this year? We have pick 2 and everything I have read was that we were going to use it.

For the last 2 years we used our 1st round pick, including our first top 10 pick in 14 years.

Is this revisionist or youre just confused?

So the board have dumped our best coach ever and gone for a green coach who is going to have a bunch of kids with no committed, experienced players?

Because that worked so well for GCS and GWS.

‘yep. They also obtained collingwoods second round pick and one of. Their players. it’s a mixed approach which has worked and will work again

 

[Pessimistic]

Who knows if Mitchell will be any good, the question isn't if Mitchell will equal Clarkson but whether he can coach better than a 2021 Clarkson.

Negatives and shortfalls only arise to the outer when you can't cover for them, every club has their challenges, Clarkson hasn't been able cover for these recently, some his own making. We're second last and 6 years since our last finals victory and barely started a rebuild, I'm not sure you can describe any of this as managed.

I'm for one looking forward to a new gameplan, some fresh air and new ideas

our 2004 list was widely regarded as ‘by far the worst in the AFL’

personally, depth wise, I reckon this list is well ahead of that (although the amount of developing game changers may be down)

do we really have to trash clarkos legacy to make us feel better?

 

[H00t]

And we get sold the story that its not a firesale like Collingwood - because we would never be as bad as Collingwood...

Pies were way over cap, and are still going to be way over cap this year and need to offload players still.

We just have a list lacking in talent. And going from bottom 4 with all our players to bottom 4 with players traded out and new draft picks that will be the future, isn’t really a step back. In terms of current or future prospects.

 

[Pessimistic]

Pies were way over cap, and are still going to be way over cap this year and need to offload players still.

We just have a list lacking in talent. And going from bottom 4 with all our players to bottom 4 with players traded out and new draft picks that will be the future, isn’t really a step back. In terms of current or future prospects.

‘it is a step back, and often leads to permanent joke status. Thankfully we haven’t really bottomed out and don’t intend to. 2 years is enough

 

[theiaofseed]

our 2004 list was widely regarded as ‘by far the worst in the AFL’

personally, depth wise, I reckon this list is well ahead of that (although the amount of developing game changers may be down)

do we really have to trash clarkos legacy to make us feel better?

How am i trashing it?

Our current list is being described as the worst in the AFL, Clarkson traded out senior players when he arrived and modeled the team around a leadership group he identified with, that's the same thing Mitchell is going to do.

 

[H00t]

‘it is a step back, and often leads to permanent joke status. Thankfully we haven’t really bottomed out and don’t intend to. 2 years is enough

What building blocks does Mitch have to really push back up the ladder and compete? I can see improvement next year if Mitchell doesn’t trade anyone out but not very much improvement.

Our list is in no way set for long term success. Two bottom 4 finishes without meaning to get here when we planned to be competing now. There’s no harm in Mitchell setting this list up how he wants to, even if that means a bit more time at the bottom of the ladder.

 

[BurnaHawks]

What building blocks does Mitch have to really push back up the ladder and compete? I can see improvement next year if Mitchell doesn’t trade anyone out but not very much improvement.

Our list is in no way set for long term success. Two bottom 4 finishes without meaning to get here when we planned to be competing now. There’s no harm in Mitchell setting this list up how he wants to, even if that means a bit more time at the bottom of the ladder.

Exactly.

 

[fairdinks]

We currently have 4 or 5 top line players, A grade if you like, and we are talking about getting rid of 2 or 3 of those? Mitchell is still our best player and by a margin. Omeara showed what he is capable of with some extra strong midfeilders around him, and Chad is/could be one of the classiest game breakers in the comp. I can see Chad being expendable in a developing side as he is the icing on an almost complete cake, however, our midfeild will be very bare without Tom and JOM, who both have 5 years + left. Chad may wish to go home now that Clarkson is gone anyway. Late 1st for mine with maybe some late swaps.
With our current draft options, I dont see a need to turn over all our best older players with value. The mid section of our list (battlers) will be turned over in the hope to find some stars in the draft.
Sheils and Gunstan wont get us much, so more value for us to keep. Ceglar, Cousins, Howe, TOB, Ollie, Greaves types may net some value, but certainly not 1st or 2nd round, although could make way in an effort to rejuvinate. Our best hope for another 1st round pick is a combo of a player above with our 2nd or third rounder OR Chad. 3 picks inside the first 24 woud be a great result IMO.
Be careful what you wish for as the landscape is littlered with mediocre clubs slashing and burning and remaining average for decades.

 

[Pessimistic]

What building blocks does Mitch have to really push back up the ladder and compete? I can see improvement next year if Mitchell doesn’t trade anyone out but not very much improvement.

Our list is in no way set for long term success. Two bottom 4 finishes without meaning to get here when we planned to be competing now. There’s no harm in Mitchell setting this list up how he wants to, even if that means a bit more time at the bottom of the ladder.

so the answer to bottom 4 finishes is to deliberately have 2 more? You can’t use a measure as both a diagnosis and a cure. The list is better than what Clarko inherited

 

[Hawker55]

so the answer to bottom 4 finishes is to deliberately have 2 more? You can’t use a measure as both a diagnosis and a cure. The list is better than what Clarko inherited

Which is a problem. Because while I love Clarko and think he's a great coach, he's taken a nominally decent list to back to back bottom 4.

 

[H00t]

so the answer to bottom 4 finishes is to deliberately have 2 more? You can’t use a measure as both a diagnosis and a cure. The list is better than what Clarko inherited

The current list is finishing bottom 4. Why wouldn’t Mitchell be given license to shape it? If we are giving him the reins let him build the list that he wants.

Mitchell will have his own ideas that will differ from Clarko’s. That might include trading out some of our better players. It’s not like we can fall much further.

 

[Pessimistic]

The current list is finishing bottom 4. Why wouldn’t Mitchell be given license to shape it? If we are giving him the reins let him build the list that he wants.

Mitchell will have his own ideas that will differ from Clarko’s. That might include trading out some of our better players. It’s not like we can fall much further.

im not getting you. If Mitch has two bottom 4 finishes and gets lots of draft picks, that’s success

btw I don’t think he will. Squad has good depth just needs development and addition of game breakers via draft (2022s smith and hill would be a dream start - didn’t need top5 picks either

 

[H00t]

im not getting you. If Mitch has two bottom 4 finishes and gets lots of draft picks, that’s success

btw I don’t think he will. Squad has good depth just needs development and addition of game breakers via draft (2022s smith and hill would be a dream start - didn’t need top5 picks either

I think we see the list slightly differently as I don’t see a competing list.

But what I’m getting at is Mitchell should be able to trade out our better players. These players have taken us to bottom four. It’s not like we can get much worse. Getting in some extra young talent and build towards something, to me would be better than keep our list and flounder mid table at best.

 

[Pessimistic]

I guess you missed my point, and I yours

 

[H00t]

I guess you missed my point, and I yours

FWIW I feel if Mitchell kept the same list with little change, both on and off field, and was pumping out the same results in 2 years time, I’d be asking some questions.

I think new coaches deserve a little more leeway starting out than a coach who has been there a while. But that’s because new things can take time to settle.

All I would like to see in the next couple of years from Mitch is him getting the club going in a positive direction. Whichever path he chooses to take.

 

[BurnaHawks]

I guess you missed my point, and I yours

2004 list revisit - compare the pair. Seems pointless because it was the 3 top 10 picks changed our destiny forever.

Buddy, Roughie and Lewis all drafted in 2005.

We need the same in 2021. Or well be sitting here in two years with no draft capital...

How do we get 3 top 10 picks? We need to draft mature blokes.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Youth and having Hawthorn play an exciting brand of football again. That's what I'd like to see.

In the long-term our backline is shaping up to be one of the best in the league. We currently have seven players who are all either very good to elite players, or are tracking in that direction. All seven have several years left in them.

- Impey (26)
- Sicily (26)
- Hardwick (25)
- Scrimshaw (22)
- CJ (21)
- Day (20)
- DGB (19)

* footywire isn't working for me ATM, so can't get exact ages

It's an excellent core. Though ultimately one or two may end up further up the field (e.g. Day to the midfield and Impey to become a plug-and-play player), and someone like Sicily may be used as trade bait or walk as a FA. The main concern there is finding a long-term FB option.

Maybe Morris and Greaves (though may struggle to keep his list spot) continue to develop and turn themselves into options down the track.

The main issues for Mitchell is working out the midfield and the forward line.

Long term midfield group options are Reeves, Worpel and Bramble (wing). The rest are up for grabs. We obviously really need The Duke, Finn and a reinvented Nash to kick on, with Downie locking down the other wing.

But even with the very best case scenario a midfield of Worpel, The Duke, Nash and Finn lack that high level class and skill. They make up for it in size and tenacity, but we need that skill level that none of them possess. Bramble and Downie both possess the class and kicking ability on the outside, but we need some in the middle too.

As for the forward line - only Moore (21) has locked away a position on the HFF.

I think Brockman (19) will lock down a FP/HFF role, similar to Breust. He's got the class and guile, but not the relentless tenacity of a Rioli or Puopolo.

We all hope S. Mitchell (19) comes on to play that agile, lightning-quick HFF role. When watching his highlights you can see has a level of class and skill by foot that can separate him from the pack... Not to mention his pace.

I think those three will ultimately form a quality HFF rotation with the midfield and FP. But we do still need a workhorse pressure forward like Puopolo to compliment them. Maybe Pepper could be that, if he lasts beyond this season.

The developing KPF stocks - Lewis (22), Kosi (21), Jeka (20) and Callow (19) - look decent on paper. We really need one to announce themselves as a potential elite KPF though.

 

[Blackhawk42]

Youth and having Hawthorn play an exciting brand of football again. That's what I'd like to see.

In the long-term our backline is shaping up to be one of the best in the league. We currently have seven players who are all either very good to elite players, or are tracking in that direction. All seven have several years left in them.

- Impey (26)
- Sicily (26)
- Hardwick (25)
- Scrimshaw (22)
- CJ (21)
- Day (20)
- DGB (19)

* footywire isn't working for me ATM, so can't get exact ages

It's an excellent core. Though ultimately one or two may end up further up the field (e.g. Day to the midfield and Impey to become a plug-and-play player), and someone like Sicily may be used as trade bait or walk as a FA. The main concern there is finding a long-term FB option.

Maybe Morris and Greaves (though may struggle to keep his list spot) continue to develop and turn themselves into options down the track.

The main issues for Mitchell is working out the midfield and the forward line.

Long term midfield group options are Reeves, Worpel and Bramble (wing). The rest are up for grabs. We obviously really need The Duke, Finn and a reinvented Nash to kick on, with Downie locking down the other wing.

But even with the very best case scenario a midfield of Worpel, The Duke, Nash and Finn lack that high level class and skill. They make up for it in size and tenacity, but we need that skill level that none of them possess. Bramble and Downie both possess the class and kicking ability on the outside, but we need some in the middle too.

As for the forward line - only Moore (21) has locked away a position on the HFF.

I think Brockman (19) will lock down a FP/HFF role, similar to Breust. He's got the class and guile, but not the relentless tenacity of a Rioli or Puopolo.

We all hope S. Mitchell (19) comes on to play that agile, lightning-quick HFF role. When watching his highlights you can see has a level of class and skill by foot that can separate him from the pack... Not to mention his pace.

I think those three will ultimately form a quality HFF rotation with the midfield and FP. But we do still need a workhorse pressure forward like Puopolo to compliment them. Maybe Pepper could be that, if he lasts beyond this season.

The developing KPF stocks - Lewis (22), Kosi (21), Jeka (20) and Callow (19) - look decent on paper. We really need one to announce themselves as a potential elite KPF though.

We have the biggest boom or bust potential forward line in the AFL right now IMO.

In 4 years time a front 6 of Jeka, Kosi, Lewis, Moore, Brockman and SMitchell could be long gone or a struggling, frustrating collective of players, OR the envy of the rest of the competition.

The potential for the latter is definitely there, but will it will fall our way through development and luck with injuries?

I really can't tell just yet.

 

[Mr Meeseeks]

Not really harsh, it should happen.

Why?

What will we get for him? Why trade out one of our only players left with premiership experience?

The reason that clubs like Carlton and GC are perennially shithouse despite all their picks, is because they dont have good development or leadership.

You dont just get rid of all the guys who do the teaching, its just stupid.

 

[The Spirit of Cricket]

2004 list revisit - compare the pair. Seems pointless because it was the 3 top 10 picks changed our destiny forever.

Buddy, Roughie and Lewis all drafted in 2005.

We need the same in 2021. Or well be sitting here in two years with no draft capital...

How do we get 3 top 10 picks? We need to draft mature blokes.

We also picked up Cyril at ~12, and got Stewie Dew in 08. Without them, we do not win the flag.

We also drafted Throp, the Beaus, Ellis inside or around the top 10.

Yes, we need high draft picks. But building a list is not as simple as gutting it and getting in bunch of kids. It must be a well-reasoned, thorough strategy that explores all avenues to improve us. That might include 4th-rounders for fringe 23 year old blokes that can play a role. It might mean picking up Kyle Hartigan's in free agency. It might mean trading TOM/Chad/whoever. It also might not. It might mean plucking kids like Bramble, Callow and Duke from nowhere, or getting lucky with our 4th round picks and securing more Sicily's, Morrison's, Lewis' etc.

It's not as black and white as you are making it out to be. There is no one correct way to go about managing our list.

While we admittedly don't have a huge range of top 10 picks (which you seem to think is the only draft capital that is worth anything), we have actually had quite a lot of pretty decent draft capital the last 2 seasons.

2020 - pretty much 3 top-25 picks
2021 - we will once again have 3 top-25 picks, and possibly more depending on player movement.

I also don't see how the moves we make this off-season has anything to do with our draft capital in 2 years' time? Do you mean in terms of players drafted now?

 

[threesixpio]

3 nick names per player:


Jack Saunders (14 disposals, 2 marks, 3 tackles)
"Mighty Mouse continues to grow. Malfoy's work-rate and willingness to put on pressure is a leading light for our forwards. Draco continues to learn in his skill development, in particular on his non-preferred side.”

 

[Judd2Sewell]

We have the biggest boom or bust potential forward line in the AFL right now IMO.

In 4 years time a front 6 of Jeka, Kosi, Lewis, Moore, Brockman and SMitchell could be long gone or a struggling, frustrating collective of players, OR the envy of the rest of the competition.

The potential for the latter is definitely there, but will it will fall our way through development and luck with injuries?

I really can't tell just yet.

Boom or bust indeed. We would be going against recent history if they turned out to be a "boom."

It's rare for such late picks to become dominant KPF's in the modern game, and in our lot we have a 3rd rounder, a 5th rounder, a rookie and a second round MSD pick.

N. Reiwoldt (#1)
Roughie (#2)
Franklin (#5)
Lynch (#10)
McKay (#10)
Daniher (F/S #10)
J. Reiwoldt (#13)
Dixon (dodgy GCS zone)
Cameron (dodgy pre-draft)
Hawkins (F/S, but was considered a top pick)

The King brothers are both early firsts. Hipwood and Georgiades are first rounders.

I think only Ben Brown and during that year or two of Tom McDonald have late picks turned into quality KPF's in recent history. I'm probably forgetting someone, but the point is they are really the exception to the rule.

 

[hardway]

Boom or bust indeed. We would be going against recent history if they turned out to be a "boom."

It's rare for such late picks to become dominant KPF's in the modern game, and in our lot we have a 3rd rounder, a 5th rounder, a rookie and a second round MSD pick.

N. Reiwoldt (#1)
Roughie (#2)
Franklin (#5)
Lynch (#10)
McKay (#10)
Daniher (F/S #10)
J. Reiwoldt (#13)
Dixon (dodgy GCS zone)
Cameron (dodgy pre-draft)
Hawkins (F/S, but was considered a top pick)

The King brothers are both early firsts. Hipwood and Georgiades are first rounders.

I think only Ben Brown and during that year or two of Tom McDonald have late picks turned into quality KPF's in recent history. I'm probably forgetting someone, but the point is they are really the exception to the rule.

Our current forwards compare to the time we had players like Thomason, Rawlings and Boyle. Not elite but might be serviceable. Need quality in the midfield to maximise what they are capable to dish up.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Our current forwards compare to the time we had players like Thomason, Rawlings and Boyle. Not elite but might be serviceable. Need quality in the midfield to maximise what they are capable to dish up.

Yeah they may all become serviceable players in the end, but you don't really win flags with those types. Unless you have a Geelong of 07-11 level midfield.