Sam Shaw legal action against AFC

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Hemi

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Wasn't his girlfriend Mackay's sister? Look at me getting all New Idea.

There is no case law on this in Australia yet, but there have been three cases in the NRL of legal action; one discontinued (possibility paid out), and two are ongoing (James McManus v Newcastle Knights and Brett Horsnel v Parramatta Eels). I suspect both of those will set precedents before Shaw v Crows is finalised. Obviously there's a lot of case law in the United States, in the NFL in particular, which would be looked at but not taken as seriously.

Shaw would most definitely be suffering ongoing problems, probably brain damage, which makes sense otherwise the financial damages would be too small to cover the legal costs (two to three years of a low AFL salary). He will have to demonstrate financial damages and that we didn't exercise a reasonable duty of care. He's obviously got the first part covered, but not sure how he'll go with the later. This is a big case for all AFL clubs.
 

mistylake

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I don’t know much about the legal side of things, but I wouldn’t even be surprised that Sam might not even be the instigator of this legal action. It might well be spurred on by his manager and/or some scummy lawyer who has an interest in winning money by helping Sam file a complaint.

It’s going to set a chain reaction of more complaints and I can foresee even more rule changes down the track. Let’s hope in the future, not all footballers are enforced to wear helmets and knee straps!
Having just gone through a long and tortuous marriage separation, still actually going through it, you can pretty much guarantee fu** head lawyers are the instigators.
Up until my x engaged a solicitor we were calmly working through the separation, having kids birthday parties together etc as soon as she got a solicitor on board she flipped and turned into a greedy lying *******. I have not talked to her since and after her laying baseless accusations on every level you could imagine, I expect never to again.
 

jenny61_99

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There's one major flaw in Janus's theory. The salary cap is managed by the list manager, the coaches have no input into contracts. So there is absolutely no way the list manager would go to the medical department and tell the doctors to give a player a green light to play just to save some money on the cap and if they did no doctor would agree to it, they would lose their license. Doctors will always place the person before the game.
Doc Reid from Essendon says hi.
 

jenny61_99

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Having just gone through a long and tortuous marriage separation, still actually going through it, you can pretty much guarantee **** head lawyers are the instigators.
Up until my x engaged a solicitor we were calmly working through the separation, having kids birthday parties together etc as soon as she got a solicitor on board she flipped and turned into a greedy lying *******. I have not talked to her since and after her laying baseless accusations on every level you could imagine, I expect never to again.
Im sorry to hear about your marriage...but for the sake of the kids, take the high road. They don’t need to see you guys anomisity towards each other. And yes, lawyers have a lot to answer for.
 

Simmo28

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There's one major flaw in Janus's theory. The salary cap is managed by the list manager, the coaches have no input into contracts. So there is absolutely no way the list manager would go to the medical department and tell the doctors to give a player a green light to play just to save some money on the cap and if they did no doctor would agree to it, they would lose their license. Doctors will always place the person before the game.
Ask the Essendon players if their medical staff put the player before the game.


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Simmo28

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Listened to some of Sams interview on 5aa from November, he stated how good the medical support he received from the AFC and how the docs got him in to see specialists in Melbourne.

I'm old school, this doesn't sit well with me, sometimes shit things just happen, there isn't always someone to blame/sue.
Regardless of whether you sit in an office of kick a football your employer must provide a safe workplace. If you were seriously injured in your job and it had life long effects I have no doubts that anyone of us on here would do likewise.


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Simmo28

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Having just gone through a long and tortuous marriage separation, still actually going through it, you can pretty much guarantee **** head lawyers are the instigators.
Up until my x engaged a solicitor we were calmly working through the separation, having kids birthday parties together etc as soon as she got a solicitor on board she flipped and turned into a greedy lying *******. I have not talked to her since and after her laying baseless accusations on every level you could imagine, I expect never to again.
That sucks mate. It’s a shame not only for you but for your children. Went through similar with my parents divorce but it was my Dad who screwed over my mum. Have only seen him once in last 21 years at a family funeral, doubt I will again.


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John Who

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Having just gone through a long and tortuous marriage separation, still actually going through it, you can pretty much guarantee **** head lawyers are the instigators.
Up until my x engaged a solicitor we were calmly working through the separation, having kids birthday parties together etc as soon as she got a solicitor on board she flipped and turned into a greedy lying *******. I have not talked to her since and after her laying baseless accusations on every level you could imagine, I expect never to again.
I think there are actually 3 layers of the issues we have in reality:
1. Bad situation involving different parties.
2. Lawyers being involved.
3. Laws allowing lawyers to find loopholes.
 

Southerntakeover

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Why does every discussion involving the law always devolve to some guy who has formed the view that despite his behaving entirely reasonably and pleasantly at all times he's now divorced and those proceedings became hard entirely because of lawyers?

Is it not possible that your former partner did not share your views about the immense reasonableness of what was happening?
 

ChilliP

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Doc Reid from Essendon says hi.
Ask the Essendon players if their medical staff put the player before the game.


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The club doctor wasn't the one giving the injections and put his protests in writing

https://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-08-21/full-text-of-dr-bruce-reids-letter

There's also a fair bit different between injecting a substance to speed up recovery and saying a player is healthy when you know they aren't so the club doesn't have to make injury payments.
 
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John Who

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Why does every discussion involving the law always devolve to some guy who has formed the view that despite his behaving entirely reasonably and pleasantly at all times he's now divorced and those proceedings became hard entirely because of lawyers?

Is it not possible that your former partner did not share your views about the immense reasonableness of what was happening?
That can be true, but you need to look into the timing of the complaint/legal action.
If it's a genuine serious concern from the outset, a legal would have been commenced immediately.
If there's a delay in the legal action, and coming out of the blue, you do have to wonder how much of it was initiated by Sam, his manager, or his legal advisor?
 

Simmo28

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The club doctor wasn't the one giving the injections and put his protests in writing

https://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-08-21/full-text-of-dr-bruce-reids-letter

There's also a fair bit different between injecting a substance to speed up recovery and saying a player is healthy when you know they aren't so the club doesn't have to make injury payments.
So he covered his arse with a letter, the fact he had concerns meant he should have done more. This only proves my point that doctors do not always put the player before the game or in this instance the club.



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jo172

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That can be true, but you need to look into the timing of the complaint/legal action.
If it's a genuine serious concern from the outset, a legal would have been commenced immediately.
If there's a delay in the legal action, and coming out of the blue, you do have to wonder how much of it was initiated by Sam, his manager, or his legal advisor?
I can promise you that is not the case.
 

MRB37

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I remember people posting at the time that rookie listing Shaw so that he could access medical care was the sort of compassionate gesture that would breed loyalty among the playing group, drive our culture, show players that the club really cared and help bond us together.

Since then we've lost Lever, Cameron and McGovern.
Money now is better that compassion later.
 

Interloperer

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I don't see whats so implausible about the claims. Off the top of my head the following incidents have occurred during or since Shaw's time at Adelaide:
  • Nathan Van Berlo misses entire season due to training mishap caused by poor workplace safety practices
  • Brent Reilly forced into retirement due to training mishap
  • Brodie Smith starts 2015 like a house on fire. Receives head-knock in 2nd game but is rushed back into the side and doesn't regain any sort of form for another 20 weeks.
  • Brad Crouch loses two full seasons
  • Rory Sloane plays round 3 and 4 of 2018 while matc... actually just all of 2018
  • Troy Menzel, Curtley Hampton, (Matthew Jaensch?) all chose early retirement rather than seeing out their contract.
All incidents caused or exacerbated by the club itself. And, for most of the cases, the club was widely mocked on this very forum. Yet when a player makes a similar claim, it's treated as absurd.
 

Mattrox

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I don't see whats so implausible about the claims. Off the top of my head the following incidents have occurred during or since Shaw's time at Adelaide:
  • Nathan Van Berlo misses entire season due to training mishap caused by poor workplace safety practices
  • Brent Reilly forced into retirement due to training mishap
  • Brodie Smith starts 2015 like a house on fire. Receives head-knock in 2nd game but is rushed back into the side and doesn't regain any sort of form for another 20 weeks.
  • Brad Crouch loses two full seasons
  • Rory Sloane plays round 3 and 4 of 2018 while matc... actually just all of 2018
  • Troy Menzel, Curtley Hampton, (Matthew Jaensch?) all chose early retirement rather than seeing out their contract.
All incidents caused or exacerbated by the club itself. And, for most of the cases, the club was widely mocked on this very forum. Yet when a player makes a similar claim, it's treated as absurd.
Inadmissible as it doesn't prove Adelaide was negligent in this case.


Stringing a list of injuries only proves footy players get injured.

Anything else is drawing a long bow.

On SM-G960F using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

King Elvis

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Regardless of whether you sit in an office of kick a football your employer must provide a safe workplace. If you were seriously injured in your job and it had life long effects I have no doubts that anyone of us on here would do likewise.


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Everyone who plays footy knows they run the risk of injury; be it concussion or an ACL.

I expect this will settle, but I'd be curious to know whether AFL contracts now have a disclaimer relating to concussion related issues; it is a predictable and foreseeable risk of playing a contact sport. I'd imagine, except in the case of negligence (ie, a player is sent back out with concussion and is hit again, or has reoccurring issues), they would have protection in the standard contracts, or they will in the future.

This is similar to the crap people bang on about with restraint of trade at Draft/Trade time; you can't apply regular workplace thinking to elite sports, there are too many differences.
 

Interloperer

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Inadmissible as it doesn't prove Adelaide was negligent in this case.


Stringing a list of injuries only proves footy players get injured.

Anything else is drawing a long bow.

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I'm not claiming any of it is relevant to the specifics of Shaw's case. Just a comment to those shocked that an Adelaide player would claim less than ideal medical treatment.
 

John Who

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Any of it. You can't really infer much of anything from the delay. If anything it was probably necessary for Shaw (and his advisors) to be able to begin to quantify any damages from the allegations.
I agree the delay is not grounds for knowing who was the main instigator eg. Shaw/manager/legal advisor.

However, I’m merely pointing out the complaint might have been instigated by people other than Shaw himself, and especially when there has been a delay of 3 years since the time of retirement and the onset of legal action.

Not sure what to make of this article, but it does paint a much different light of non-animosity between Shaw and the club (at least at the time of retirement):
https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-09/adelaide-crow-sam-shaw-retires-due-to-concussion-worries/8009512
 

John Who

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I'm not claiming any of it is relevant to the specifics of Shaw's case. Just a comment to those shocked that an Adelaide player would claim less than ideal medical treatment.
Noone here is shocked. We’re merely discussing the possible issues rather than “Sam/club is right and club/Sam is wrong”.
 

Simmo28

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Everyone who plays footy knows they run the risk of injury; be it concussion or an ACL.

This is similar to the crap people bang on about with restraint of trade at Draft/Trade time; you can't apply regular workplace thinking to elite sports, there are too many differences.
Bullshit. Any worker who goes down a mine, arrests a criminal or puts out a fire knows the risks, that doesn’t lessen the compensation if you are hurt while working. I don’t understand why sports people have to accept the risks yet pretty much every other job slides by with no arguments against compensation for injury or disability. Is it because we look at those playing sport as not having a “real” job and being overpaid? Sorry but if the AFL wants to earn billions from the sport then that comes with having to fork out for the collateral damage along the way AKA “the cost of doing business”.


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