Injury Sam Skinner - ongoing ACL recovery (it's fine everyone, Nunez just trialling psychological warfare)

Cockliff38

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Thread starter #51
Yeah it's interesting. Obviously every person and case is different, but in my case (having had multiple knee surgeries) I found that the effect of both minor and significant surgeries was more profound than that. Mental aspects do indeed though play a massive part.

With each surgery (major or minor), the health to which my knee could return was diminished. What I mean by that is say your knee starts at 100%, and you suffer a knee injury requiring surgery. Even if the surgery is successful the knee only ever returns to 95% of its original state, and when you have multiple injuries and multiple surgeries this is compounded each time, with even successful surgeries only returning a moderately healthy state.

At some stage (different for everyone) you reach a tipping point where you knee simply won't respond how you want it to. That is not to say though that you can't lead a perfectly active life, but the ability to jump and change direction for example is compromised.

I daresay there are many out there with their own stories of knee injuries and I hope everything works out for Sam. Ripper kid when I spoke to him in Perth.
Not to completely discredit your point but Sam injured his right knee. The previous reconstructions have been to his left
 

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DashinD

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#52
Just terrible for him.......like others, hoping the club sticks by him and helps him through, although I'm sure they will. I thought of Dan Menzel.

When hearing these sorts of injuries, I can't help wondering why it happens.....is it a weakness in the individual's body structure or is it from training routine.

Either way, it's so cruel to happen at all, but to happen again is devastating........be strong Sam, we wish you well and are thinking of you:(
I've got one leg about 1cm shorter than the other and as a youth playing basketball I continually injured that ankle. I always thought that had something to do with it, like I was landing fractionally later than my brain was preparing my body for. Could be a mechanical thing like this, could be a physical weakness, could be plain bad luck.

Best of luck for Sam. Hope you recover well, and hope it's just bad luck.
 

WA Lion

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#53
Not to completely discredit your point but Sam injured his right knee. The previous reconstructions have been to his left
Absolutely, wasn't trying to make correlation to Sams case, more pointing out that knees are funny things that don't always respond well. The fact that it is the other knee may actually be a good thing potentially? 3 reconstructions of the same knee would be even more challenging
 
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Moderator #55
Sickening that it happens right after Fages singles him out as the one player to watch out for next year...Christ...
Find it much more likely that Fagan probably knew this news was coming and was making it clear that the club still sees a future for Sam here.
 
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#58
The anecdotal evidence would suggest multiple knee surgeries do impact speed and agility. Hopefully he comes back from this and has an AFL career but more importantly a healthy life.
 

Gadzorks

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#61
The world can be cruel - gave sam the coordination, strength speed and attituide to be brilliant but inserted a weakness that can outweigh all the good stuff.

Sucks.

I can't imagine how I would have coped at such a young age with 3 years rehab. Giving up all the fun stuff as a dedicated athlete yet never really performing.

Would blame him if he needs some serious time out. WIth the club's full support of course.
 

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Dylan12

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#67
The injury and rotten luck to befall Sam Skinner isn't too dissimilar to another ex-Lion in Pat Garner who also suffered 3 ACL's in the early 2000's. One difference is that Sam got to play a senior game unlike Pat who later retired.

Purely from a list management perspective, I wouldn't be surprised if we downgraded Sam onto the rookie list, which doesn't change anything for Sam, although it will allow us to either retain someone we may have delisted or upgrade a Hammelmann or trade/draft someone else.
 

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#70
Righteo, here's a condensed version of what I'm finding with ACLs.

Apologies as it's a bit longer than id hoped.

As always there kind of has to be a disclaimer just to provide a bit of context...

Despite how much effort we put into rehab and injury prevention I think we currently lack the necessary perspective to truly prevent them - which I think is more possible than we realise.

All of this is from my perspective as a Physio trying to solve a set of problems in my clinic. It's not true empirical research, but it's real time clinical findings - ones that seem consistent and repeatable. So please take from this what you want.

First things first - almost no ACL injury is an accident. It may appear that way, but it isn't. An ACL is seriously robust. It shouldn't fail from either landing or twisting particularly seeing as the majority of ACLs are simple, innocuous incidents.

Accidents happen on the footy field as someone can fall across your leg, but the key it seems here is that the quality of your leg mechanics going in to an accident will have a huge say in how well it stands up to the accident itself. Itll either cope and you'll be fine/fine-ish or it won't and you're out for the year.

Either way, this isnt a conversation entirely about strength and conditioning but the QUALITY of your leg mechanics. It's hugely underrated.

From my experience there is one major factor that seems to be present in every ACL I've ever seen.

Stiff ankles.

There are a few other items of note but this'll be a huge post if I go too deep.

The idea seems to be that if you add some stiffness to the joint below, the WHOLE leg has to find a way around it. You'll see a knee that caves in, you'll see a foot that may turn out, you'll see flat arches.

You'll see an ACL open to rupturing.

It's easy to get a sense of this when looking at someone squat.

Here's a pic of an old Indian lady squatting to FULL depth.



Here's a pic of Sam Skinner squatting to FULL depth.



Notice he's in a deep squat but his heels are a few inches off the ground... he's got stiff ankles, or at least he does if this pic is a true representation of how he squats.

If you can't squat to FULL depth with your heels down, feet straight, knees out and without wanting to fall backwards then you are missing something somewhere. The real kicker is that's supposed to feel normal. Thanks to the modern world - seats, heeled shoes, thongs etc we're batting pretty thin in the inherent flexibility stakes. Just instagram #babysquat or #asiansquat for a decent example of what we should all be able to do.

In summary ACLs (and most other knee issues for that matter) aren't a knee issue at all, they're a leg issue - or at least that's what I'm finding. Essentially the knee fails to cope with the way the whole leg is forced to work around restrictions. The moment an ACL goes is the moment it goes, but the mechanics of your leg leading up to that moment potentially set you up to fail.

There's a lot to cover with an ACL but the thing to take away from today s announcement is that Sam Skinner's knee didn't fail by accident. There's tangible, treatable factors that lead to such a terrible outcome. But you have to go hunting for them.

The biggest wrinkles are obviously his surgeries and rehabs which unfortunately are piling up. But for Sam and anyone else whose suffered an ACL you have to get at the original mechanical flaws, not just rehab the injury.

If he has stiff ankles, they have to go. All the strength and conditioning in the world can't buffer that enough. Clearly Sam's a unit as it is.

Anyway, hopefully that reads well enough, as I said earlier Ill have an in-depth post on this later on but it's a start.

Hope that helps.
 
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#71
Obviously it's his call, but it may be more about the mental aspects now, and how badly he wants an AFL career.
This. He knows knees can be fixed - he's proven that.

But bloody hell this must be hard mentally and it must raise so many questions that right now deciding whether or not it's worth it for the crazy chance it'll happen for a fourth time is his biggest challenge. And why wouldn't you wonder that with his run?

He seems like such a determined kid. Positive. And talented. He's got some serious thinking to do. It seems he's surrounded by good family and friends and a club that wants the best for him, which makes me hugely proud for some strange reason.

Step back for a bit Sam. Get your head right. And when you are ready, hit it with all guns blazing. It'll be a comeback with a huge story and an even bigger cheer from all of us.
 

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#72
Righteo, here's a condensed version of what I'm finding with ACLs.

Apologies as it's a bit longer than id hoped.

As always there kind of has to be a disclaimer just to provide a bit of context...

Despite how much effort we put into rehab and injury prevention I think we currently lack the necessary perspective to truly prevent them - which I think is more possible than we realise.

All of this is from my perspective as a Physio trying to solve a set of problems in my clinic. It's not true empirical research, but it's real time clinical findings - ones that seem consistent and repeatable. So please take from this what you want.

First things first - almost no ACL injury is an accident. It may appear that way, but it isn't. An ACL is seriously robust. It shouldn't fail from either landing or twisting particularly seeing as the majority of ACLs are simple, innocuous incidents.

Accidents happen on the footy field as someone can fall across your leg, but the key it seems here is that the quality of your leg mechanics going in to an accident will have a huge say in how well it stands up to the accident itself. Itll either cope and you'll be fine/fine-ish or it won't and you're out for the year.

Either way, this isnt a conversation entirely about strength and conditioning but the QUALITY of your leg mechanics. It's hugely underrated.

From my experience there is one major factor that seems to be present in every ACL I've ever seen.

Stiff ankles.

There are a few other items of note but this'll be a huge post if I go too deep.

The idea seems to be that if you add some stiffness to the joint below, the WHOLE leg has to find a way around it. You'll see a knee that caves in, you'll see a foot that may turn out, you'll see flat arches.

You'll see an ACL open to rupturing.

It's easy to get a sense of this when looking at someone squat.

Here's a pic of an old Indian lady squatting to FULL depth.



Here's a pic of Sam Skinner squatting to FULL depth.



Notice he's in a deep squat but his heels are a few inches off the ground... he's got stiff ankles, or at least he does if this pic is a true representation of how he squats.

If you can't squat to FULL depth with your heels down, feet straight, knees out and without wanting to fall backwards then you are missing something somewhere. The real kicker is that's supposed to feel normal. Thanks to the modern world - seats, heeled shoes, thongs etc we're batting pretty thin in the inherent flexibility stakes. Just instagram #babysquat or #asiansquat for a decent example of what we should all be able to do.

In summary ACLs (and most other knee issues for that matter) aren't a knee issue at all, they're a leg issue - or at least that's what I'm finding. Essentially the knee fails to cope with the way the whole leg is forced to work around restrictions. The moment an ACL goes is the moment it goes, but the mechanics of your leg leading up to that moment potentially set you up to fail.

There's a lot to cover with an ACL but the thing to take away from today s announcement is that Sam Skinner's knee didn't fail by accident. There's tangible, treatable factors that lead to such a terrible outcome. But you have to go hunting for them.

The biggest wrinkles are obviously his surgeries and rehabs which unfortunately are piling up. But for Sam and anyone else whose suffered an ACL you have to get at the original mechanical flaws, not just rehab the injury.

If he has stiff ankles, they have to go. All the strength and conditioning in the world can't buffer that enough. Clearly Sam's a unit as it is.

Anyway, hopefully that reads well enough, as I said earlier Ill have an in-depth post on this later on but it's a start.

Hope that helps.
Thanks sven, interesting stuff, are you saying that stiff ankles can be turned into flexible ankles or it is genetic and can't be remedied?

I played soccer during my youth (the 1960s/70s) and have played futsal for the last 16 years all year round so at a rough count I have played 800 games during that time and have never suffered a knee injury or a soft tissue injury, I have only suffered 2 sprained ankles in that time both resulting in 2-3 weeks off. I just tried the deep squat and can do it no problems. Anecdotal I know but there you go.
 
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#73
Thanks sven, interesting stuff, are you saying that stiff ankles can be turned into flexible ankles or it is genetic and can't be remedied?

I played soccer during my youth (the 1960s/70s) and have played futsal for the last 16 years all year round so at a rough count I have played 800 games during that time and have never suffered a knee injury or a soft tissue injury, I have only suffered 2 sprained ankles in that time both resulting in 2-3 weeks off. I just tried the deep squat and can do it no problems. Anecdotal I know but there you go.
Perhaps it should become part of our recruiting regime.
 

WA Lion

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#74
Righteo, here's a condensed version of what I'm finding with ACLs.

Apologies as it's a bit longer than id hoped.

As always there kind of has to be a disclaimer just to provide a bit of context...

Despite how much effort we put into rehab and injury prevention I think we currently lack the necessary perspective to truly prevent them - which I think is more possible than we realise.

All of this is from my perspective as a Physio trying to solve a set of problems in my clinic. It's not true empirical research, but it's real time clinical findings - ones that seem consistent and repeatable. So please take from this what you want.

First things first - almost no ACL injury is an accident. It may appear that way, but it isn't. An ACL is seriously robust. It shouldn't fail from either landing or twisting particularly seeing as the majority of ACLs are simple, innocuous incidents.

Accidents happen on the footy field as someone can fall across your leg, but the key it seems here is that the quality of your leg mechanics going in to an accident will have a huge say in how well it stands up to the accident itself. Itll either cope and you'll be fine/fine-ish or it won't and you're out for the year.

Either way, this isnt a conversation entirely about strength and conditioning but the QUALITY of your leg mechanics. It's hugely underrated.

From my experience there is one major factor that seems to be present in every ACL I've ever seen.

Stiff ankles.

There are a few other items of note but this'll be a huge post if I go too deep.

The idea seems to be that if you add some stiffness to the joint below, the WHOLE leg has to find a way around it. You'll see a knee that caves in, you'll see a foot that may turn out, you'll see flat arches.

You'll see an ACL open to rupturing.

It's easy to get a sense of this when looking at someone squat.

Here's a pic of an old Indian lady squatting to FULL depth.



Here's a pic of Sam Skinner squatting to FULL depth.



Notice he's in a deep squat but his heels are a few inches off the ground... he's got stiff ankles, or at least he does if this pic is a true representation of how he squats.

If you can't squat to FULL depth with your heels down, feet straight, knees out and without wanting to fall backwards then you are missing something somewhere. The real kicker is that's supposed to feel normal. Thanks to the modern world - seats, heeled shoes, thongs etc we're batting pretty thin in the inherent flexibility stakes. Just instagram #babysquat or #asiansquat for a decent example of what we should all be able to do.

In summary ACLs (and most other knee issues for that matter) aren't a knee issue at all, they're a leg issue - or at least that's what I'm finding. Essentially the knee fails to cope with the way the whole leg is forced to work around restrictions. The moment an ACL goes is the moment it goes, but the mechanics of your leg leading up to that moment potentially set you up to fail.

There's a lot to cover with an ACL but the thing to take away from today s announcement is that Sam Skinner's knee didn't fail by accident. There's tangible, treatable factors that lead to such a terrible outcome. But you have to go hunting for them.

The biggest wrinkles are obviously his surgeries and rehabs which unfortunately are piling up. But for Sam and anyone else whose suffered an ACL you have to get at the original mechanical flaws, not just rehab the injury.

If he has stiff ankles, they have to go. All the strength and conditioning in the world can't buffer that enough. Clearly Sam's a unit as it is.

Anyway, hopefully that reads well enough, as I said earlier Ill have an in-depth post on this later on but it's a start.

Hope that helps.
Well there you go, actually learned something on bigfooty, thanks for posting! Genuinely interesting.

If you need any additional evidence I had numerous knee injuries / surgeries playing high level soccer as a junior and I would definitely fit your 'stiff ankles' description. Had to wear shoe inserts due to ankles tilting in.

Actually tried the squat thing and couldn't get my heels anywhere near the damn floor!
 

briztoon

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#75
I can not do a full squat flat footed. My heals are a good 3+ inches off the ground.

I know I have stiff ankles and feet. I to have to wear podiatry inserts. I have very stiff ligaments in my feet and back of my legs. Yet as a kid I was a genuine barefoot athlete right up to my early teens. Then did tae kwon do and had good flexibility until I left school.
 
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