Roast Same Players, Same Result

[stay true]

Carlisle played well - better than i expected - But you can't say that Carlisle had no chance - Kreuzer took two contested marks against Carlisle in the third quarter - Nothing to do with midfield pressure - Merely beaten in an one-on-one contest

Alright, those 2 aside - he had no chance in the other 15 they kicked. I give Jake some leeway because Kreuzer is much stronger and obviously more developed. My point is that he was not to blame for the avalanche of goals - which no-one can argue against.

 

[Lord Nicholson]

Carlton had 52 inside 50's which is average by AFL standards.

Gotta think that the defence had a poor night - Conceded more inside 50's in previous weeks.

After half time, those were rapid-fire entries, though, so there was no respite for an already undermanned defence, let alone one that lost Pears at half time. So that's a backline that's missing, what, 4 of our best back 6?

Which is compounded by the undermanned midfield - I think we lost every centre clearance that Hille went in for, so... I think they had a tough job on their hands, that wasn't entirely their fault. If they had been able to hold Carlton's scoreline down, even in a loss, it would have been remarkable, given the circumstances.

 

[The Donners]

The change was made rines. Slattery was moved from Garlett onto Betts after McVeigh gave up two quick ones.

Hird ran out of places to hide both Slattery and McVeigh. Neither were ever going to be quick enough to take either of Betts or Garlett.

No need for alarm bells. Hibberd is a big loss considering our quality of small defenders.

 

[Runk]

Was among our best until half time, I thought.

Slattery was indefensible. I hope The Doctor gets well very, very soon. If we were to be realistic, Slattery should never, ever run our onto an AFL field again. His... intent, I guess, is fine, and often his effort is... decent, but his skills are not within a bull's roar of AFL standard. It might sound flippant, but fresh air would probably provide us with more on the field. There's more to be gained from playing some no-name rookie defender, if we've got one on the list, and at least holding out hope that someone with a semblance of talent can take that spot, until Hibberd is fit and firing.

This. In the first quarter he let Garlett run off him towards the forward wing area. You could see Slattery jogging, not thinking much due to the ball being at the other end of the ground. Needless to say Yarran breaks a lame tackle on his defensive 50 and it's on. The ball goes then gets handballed to another Carlton player, Garlett has tonnes of space, while all the time Slattery is now shitting himself, and the next thing you know it hits Garlett on the chest, fires it into Betts. Goal.

All night I watched him I could not agree more, he is nowhere near AFL standard. The single worst player on our list.
Worst! Everytime he runs on toi the field I think what's he going to offer us/screw up today?

Leroy is drifting. Monfries the same.

On a positive note I loved that Carlisle got a game and showed a bit (just a bit) and I will not bash Brent Stanton again. At least he bloody well never stops and has a crack at it. Not like some passengers (Hille).

 

[The Donners]

Carlisle played well - better than i expected - But you can't say that Carlisle had no chance - Kreuzer took two contested marks against Carlisle in the third quarter - Nothing to do with midfield pressure - Merely beaten in an one-on-one contest

Alright, those 2 aside - he had no chance in the other 15 they kicked. I give Jake some leeway because Kreuzer is much stronger and obviously more developed. My point is that he was not to blame for the avalanche of goals - which no-one can argue against.

I think Carlisle is going to be quality but last night I had the sense he didn't feel he belonged out there. Needs to play next week and the following.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

Carlisle looks like a natural forward with the way he attacks the ball. That was very clear to me last night.

 

[Lord Nicholson]

I think Carlisle is going to be quality but last night I had the sense he didn't feel he belonged out there. Needs to play next week and the following.

I dunno, I think he showed enough composure in the first half, took that courageous mark running with the flight of the ball... I thought he looked reasonably confident. He really does need a few games to get settled, and I'm glad that's what Hird is doing, instead of chopping and changing every week, in regards to the younger players.

 

[stay true]

I think Carlisle is going to be quality but last night I had the sense he didn't feel he belonged out there. Needs to play next week and the following.

Fair enough but I saw it a bit differently. I thought he looked pretty comfortable in the first half and had some confidence. That mark he took backing into the pack with the flight was very good.

 

[The Donners]

I dunno, I think he showed enough composure in the first half, took that courageous mark running with the flight of the ball... I thought he looked reasonably confident. He really does need a few games to get settled, and I'm glad that's what Hird is doing, instead of chopping and changing every week, in regards to the younger players.

Fair enough but I saw it a bit differently. I thought he looked pretty comfortable in the first half and had some confidence. That mark he took backing into the pack with the flight was very good.

He wasn't working hard enough off the ball, he wasn't chasing his opponents, his tackling was poor etc. As I said, I think he's going to be a quality player but he needs to work harder.

It was a great mark and he showed enough but as I said, needs to work harder.

Probably right BtG.

 

[Yoda_]

Carlisle looks like a natural forward with the way he attacks the ball. That was very clear to me last night.

What was evident last night was that a star studded midfield can cover a lack of KPP.

 

[yaco55]

Yet you gave Hardingham votes?

Have no problem giving Hardingham votes - Did fairly well in his battle with Walker ( had him most of the time ) - Must say that kicking is a worry.

Thats why I sneaked Dyson in for a vote - Did well on Gartlett.

 

[yaco55]

I think Carlisle is going to be quality but last night I had the sense he didn't feel he belonged out there. Needs to play next week and the following.

People have misconstrued my comments about Carlisle. Thought he played well considering the circumstances - Making the point that the two contested marks ( Kreuzer took one on Pears ) he took on Carlisle - couldn't be blamed on perfect delivery to the forward.

Seen Carlisle play defence for Bendigo - Seems capable - Think he could end up playing back/forward - depending on the performance of other players.

Anyway he has a good match up this week - Should play on O'Keefe - young CWD player who has played three games.

 

[stay true]

What was evident last night was that a star studded midfield can cover a lack of KPP.

You forgot the fine print. A star studded midfield can cover cover a lack of KPP when the opposition midfield and defence are decimated. All we had was Carlisle down back so Carlton's lack of key forwards is moot and we couldn't get the ball forward with enough regularity and quality to expose their lack of key defenders.

That's what was evident last night.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

What was evident last night was that a star studded midfield can cover a lack of KPP.

Not quite. Pears gave Kreuzer a bath early, and Hurley tore Henderson a new one, with no midfield support.

Play two full midfields against each other, even taking out 1-2 of ours, and Carlton's lack of KPP depth gets exposed.

 

[Yoda_]

You forgot the fine print. A star studded midfield can cover cover a lack of KPP when the opposition midfield and defence are decimated. All we had was Carlisle down back so Carlton's lack of key forwards is moot and we couldn't get the ball forward with enough regularity and quality to expose their lack of key defenders.

That's what was evident last night.

No point making excuses for either side, we both had players out. Carlton had no FF and no FB, we needed to take advantage of that, we didnt. We had plenty of ball in the first half but didnt take advantage of it.

The Carlton mids ran us into the ground. Not sure where Carlisle comes into it, Walker kicked 4, Betts 8 12 goals and Carlisle played on them? We bled badly in the midfield.

Not quite. Pears gave Kreuzer a bath early, and Hurley tore Henderson a new one, with no midfield support.

Play two full midfields against each other, even taking out 1-2 of ours, and Carlton's lack of KPP depth gets exposed.

Henderson isnt a defenders ****hole. We were at least even and Hurley was taking advantage of it with some nice goals, as was Crameri.

I agree though, play two full midfields against each other and we will see a vastly different game.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

Exactly, and he got exposed, even with supreme midfield domination.

 

[stay true]

No point making excuses for either side, we both had players out. Carlton had no FF and no FB, we needed to take advantage of that, we didnt. We had plenty of ball in the first half but didnt take advantage of it.

The Carlton mids ran us into the ground. Not sure where Carlisle comes into it, Walker kicked 4, Betts 8 12 goals and Carlisle played on them? We bled badly in the midfield.

Making excuses/putting it in perspective - whatever, it is what it is. They had a full strength midfield and we were down 3 of best (top 2 mids plus a handy clearance mid). You agreed with what I'm saying anyway in your reply to BTG's post anyway so...

Point about Carlisle is that he was they only key defender once Pears went down. What advantage we had (height and presence) is gone and Carlton's lack of height is no longer an issue. Fletch pulling out before the game hurt that even more.

Also I don't feel that we had enough of the ball in the right places in the first half. We didn't go inside 50 a whole lot but we were very efficient once we did go in and we seemed to score most of the time which leads me to believe we did take advantage of the situation up forward. 2nd half we got obliterated in the clearances and during that 10-15 minute run they had in the third it seemed like we couldn't get past half way. So like you said, put in Watson, Hocking and Lonergan and things don't go pear shaped so easily.

 

[rines]

Not quite. Pears gave Kreuzer a bath early, and Hurley tore Henderson a new one, with no midfield support.

Play two full midfields against each other, even taking out 1-2 of ours, and Carlton's lack of KPP depth gets exposed.

Think you live in la la land sometimes.. and then the sharp end of tactical nous at other times..

Carlton have shown, along with Geelong, that you can win plenty of games without a great KP spine. Mids Mids and Mids are what win games of footy now with 1-2 KPP req'd at either end.

Essendon erred and got 2-3 too many talls and then wasted picks on guys like Myers.. imagine another Heppell running around instead of Myers.. Hopefully as mids mature quicker Hird can grab another 2-3 this draft and we should start to build. We wasted too many top 10 picks for KPP without ever seeming to secure ourselves an A+ mid to support Jobe.

Your logic is sound when you state that Myers can't really be moved onto half the forwards in the league because he is too slow, he also can't be moved onto the half of the forwards because he is too short. Its midfield or nothing for my mind with regards to Myers yet speed and decision making kill him in there. Again it feels like we are trying to "make a role" for the guy rather than a guy "owning a role". C'Wood have shown that by having strong roles that can be filled by multiple guys it creates depth. Essentially we have too many guys that can play one role or one spot only and if they get beaten (slattery, mcveigh etc last night) then there is nowhere to 'hide' them.

I am still hoping to make finals but appears unlikely, it was a shame that our worst footy for the year happened just when we had a couple of 'winnable' games in the middle there. Now not sure if limping into the eight is worth it.. could be a repeat of 09 where it does possibly more damage than good as we get slaughtered prob by Freo/WC/Carl/Syd/Haw

 

[Ben the Gooner]

Think you live in la la land sometimes.. and then the sharp end of tactical nous at other times..

Carlton have shown, along with Geelong, that you can win plenty of games without a great KP spine. Mids Mids and Mids are what win games of footy now with 1-2 KPP req'd at either end.

Yeah, you can win plenty of games with average KPP. But are you trying to tell me that with Watson, Hocking and Lonergan in the side, we would have been destroyed through the middle like we were? That our KPP wouldn't have had better supply and support? I'm absolutely convinced that if we were able to restrict their midfield's influence, even to a slight loss, that Betts wouldn't have kicked 8, Hurley would have kicked more, Kruezer less etc. I think we'd have won on the basis of KPP dominance. As it turns out, our midfield was too decimated for the KPP dominance to have a chance.

Essendon erred and got 2-3 too many talls and then wasted picks on guys like Myers.. imagine another Heppell running around instead of Myers.. Hopefully as mids mature quicker Hird can grab another 2-3 this draft and we should start to build. We wasted too many top 10 picks for KPP without ever seeming to secure ourselves an A+ mid to support Jobe.

Who's this mythical Heppell? Rhys Palmer?

Your logic is sound when you state that Myers can't really be moved onto half the forwards in the league because he is too slow, he also can't be moved onto the half of the forwards because he is too short. Its midfield or nothing for my mind with regards to Myers yet speed and decision making kill him in there. Again it feels like we are trying to "make a role" for the guy rather than a guy "owning a role". C'Wood have shown that by having strong roles that can be filled by multiple guys it creates depth. Essentially we have too many guys that can play one role or one spot only and if they get beaten (slattery, mcveigh etc last night) then there is nowhere to 'hide' them.

Agree that Myers is a midfielder, but bear in mind that we were missing 2 of our best 4 KPD before the game, a 3rd by half time and had to play the 4th at CHF. Needs must. Believe me, if we had a full squad available and were lining up in a Grand Final tomorrow, Myers would be in the middle or in the grandstand.

I am still hoping to make finals but appears unlikely, it was a shame that our worst footy for the year happened just when we had a couple of 'winnable' games in the middle there. Now not sure if limping into the eight is worth it.. could be a repeat of 09 where it does possibly more damage than good as we get slaughtered prob by Freo/WC/Carl/Syd/Haw

I don't think a final against WCE or Carlton (doubt any others will finish 5th) would be a massacre, on the proviso that Watson, Hocking and Fletch play. This isn't a team with no defensive pressure through the midfield, with Quinn and Atkinson and shit-Dempsey in the backline. A narrow loss or even a famous win would be the options IMO.

 

[Lord Nicholson]

Yeah, you can win plenty of games with average KPP. But are you trying to tell me that with Watson, Hocking and Lonergan in the side, we would have been destroyed through the middle like we were? That our KPP wouldn't have had better supply and support? I'm absolutely convinced that if we were able to restrict their midfield's influence, even to a slight loss, that Betts wouldn't have kicked 8, Hurley would have kicked more, Kruezer less etc. I think we'd have won on the basis of KPP dominance. As it turns out, our midfield was too decimated for the KPP dominance to have a chance.

Truth.

We might have had an advantage in the forwardline.... but it doesn't matter much when the ball's not going to get there in the first place. When we got smashed in the third quarter, the ball was just coming out of there and into Carlton's forwardline like crap from a goose. And after half time, we had absolutely no advantage in the backline whatsoever.

I don't think anyone's going to deny that Watson's our most important player, but I maintain that Hocking is #2. Frankly, we would have won more of those mid-season games (specifically Richmond and Melbourne) had Hocking been playing. He wouldn't have stopped Judd, but he would have at least niggled him. Instead Judd and his cohorts were able to run rampant over what is, in essence, a midfield made up of kids.

 

[Azarity]

My thoughts:

Dyson: Did someone say in this thread they gave Dyson points! The bombers are never going to get any where with a guy like this. Soft and no footy smarts. No place on the team.

Davey: Absolutely no attacking presence. We are a man down when he plays. Runs into the wrong places on the pitch, taking his man into space that he has no right to be in. Too small and not strong enough. Talk of playing him on Betts - you can't be serious!

Jetta: We needed someone to stop Betts, why not try Jetta? At least he has a bit of pace. Would be a good learning curve, and surely couldn't have done worse than the other options.

Slattery: Please do not play again. If he can't lock a player down, I'm really not sure what he can provide. Too slow and uncoordinated. Much like Dyson, definitely not going to be a good team if we play guys like this.

Surely Ross or any other young players in the reserves should be considered for a game.

 

[Lord Nicholson]

My thoughts:

Dyson: Did someone say in this thread they gave Dyson points! The bombers are never going to get any where with a guy like this. Soft and no footy smarts. No place on the team.

Davey: Absolutely no attacking presence. We are a man down when he plays. Runs into the wrong places on the pitch, taking his man into space that he has no right to be in. Too small and not strong enough. Talk of playing him on Betts - you can't be serious!

Jetta: We needed someone to stop Betts, why not try Jetta? At least he has a bit of pace. Would be a good learning curve, and surely couldn't have done worse than the other options.

Slattery: Please do not play again. If he can't lock a player down, I'm really not sure what he can provide. Too slow and uncoordinated. Much like Dyson, definitely not going to be a good team if we play guys like this.

Surely Ross or any other young players in the reserves should be considered for a game.

Much sense here. Especially sending Jetta back... might be a good idea, considering the depleted backline.

Although I must say, let Ricky play his 100th before packing his bags.

 

[jsd09]

I think Carlisle is going to be quality but last night I had the sense he didn't feel he belonged out there. Needs to play next week and the following.

I noticed and thought the exact same thing, there were a few occasions where you could just see he wasn't sure what to do and they weren't difficult decisions I just put it down to confidence and as he plays more AFL footy he will get that !

 

[SirJimi05]

Who's this mythical Heppell? Rhys Palmer?

Don't believe everything you read in the media. All the talk pre draft was who Essendon would take out of Myers and Palmer but from what I have heard from people at the club is that Rioli was the more likely.

Club was super keen on him, more so than Palmer.

I'm hoping that Myers becomes a Walker type draftee that really took his time hitting his straps but at this point in time it's looking like a pretty big fail. It's looking like we might get a serviceable player at best, at this stage.

 

[Essendonia]

Carlton. It's possible. Not based on last night's performance, since the opposition was probably closer to a 2nds side than anything, but just in general. I think they could do it. Geelong too, if they come out of this rough patch convincingly.

Collingwood aren't untouchable. Sydney came within a goal of them just a few weeks ago, after all.

This is ridiculous. Carltank do not have the cattle, mental ability or talent to play four quarters of high-pressure football. Colonwood has winners in every position. Off topic though.

We won't beat Colonwood this week, but it would nice to see some endeavour from every b#$**** who runs out in the red sash. When you can see gaps open up and free men appear in the first half of a match, it's frustrating. No matter what, a bloke can always run and tackle.