SANFL Round 8

[Drummond]

Thiele's not kidding, but it's a decision Adelaide have made with an eye to the future.

Kurt's ruck form for West has been very good and I'm sure he wasn't recruited with a view to playing him this year. He'll be back as an exciting prospect for next year and beyond.

Be patient, he's a young ruckman.

Pretty sure we're not in need of any more ruckmen. Huddo, Griffin, Maric and Meesen is a great ruck division, why draft another? And yes Tippett could develop into a key forward, and that's what we would’ve had in mind when we drafted him, but he looks much more comfortable rucking.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Pretty sure we're not in need of any more ruckmen. Huddo, Griffin, Maric and Meesen is a great ruck division, why draft another? And yes Tippett could develop into a key forward, and that's what we would’ve had in mind when we drafted him, but he looks much more comfortable rucking.

Now Drummond your a pretty smart cookie ......Tippett has played approx 20 games of footy in his life ,......yet has played basketball the majority of his life taking tip-offs as a centre

Now I would imagine as a consequence his rucking skills to be akin to basketball ....and that is why he looks the most comfortable in ruck.

His agility, and ground skills also suggest like Griffin that he could "develop" as a key forward "in Time"

 

[Stiffy_18]

Now Drummond your a pretty smart cookie ......Tippett has played approx 20 games of footy in his life ,......yet has played basketball the majority of his life taking tip-offs as a centre

Now I would imagine as a consequence his rucking skills to be akin to basketball ....and that is why he looks the most comfortable in ruck.

His agility, and ground skills also suggest like Griffin that he could "develop" as a key forward "in Time"

If thats the case then he was one hell of an undersized centre

He is a off guard / small forward size. A centre?

 

[bus24]

If thats the case then he was one hell of an undersized centre

He is a off guard / small forward size. A centre?

With his fantastic athletic ability and being around the 200cm mark, it's not out of the question that he'd have a crack at the tip-offs. He's hardly up against 7'6 monsters.

 

[Mego Red]

If thats the case then he was one hell of an undersized centre

He is a off guard / small forward size. A centre?

Maybe that's why he didn't stay with it. A lot of junior basketball teams have a 6' 7" guy as centre. Maybe he didn't have pro size for that sport but he does for this.

 

[CarnCrows]

Adelaide were apparently rapped at getting Tippett with pick 32 - and talk was that they may of got him with the first pick if Seller was not still there. IMHO a big risk considering the amount of games he has played.

I thought both Tippett and Griff were taken as ruckman/Forwards. Tippett was never supposed to play this year, possibly even next, while he learnt the game.

Griff has demonstrated that he could be very useful as a fwd, hopefully next year Tippett can show the same wares.

 

[Mego Red]

Pretty sure we're not in need of any more ruckmen. Huddo, Griffin, Maric and Meesen is a great ruck division, why draft another? And yes Tippett could develop into a key forward, and that's what we would’ve had in mind when we drafted him, but he looks much more comfortable rucking.

Phew, Drummond - you've taken more than your daily allowance of "idiot" today, haven't you.

Chris Schmidt will be a nice player, but he will be a Doughty/Massie/Torney, which is valuable but perhaps not where we should be investing our second round pick. Tippett seems a very likely type - in about three years. Why don't we relax with the predictions of doom?

And on Bernie Vince - how many games did Knights dominate in the SANFL before he could translate it to AFL form? About two years worth? The change in pace and role will take Bernie time to adjust to.

 

[CrowHop]

Phew, Drummond - you've taken more than your daily allowance of "idiot" today, haven't you.

Chris Schmidt will be a nice player, but he will be a Doughty/Massie/Torney, which is valuable but perhaps not where we should be investing our second round pick. Tippett seems a very likely type - in about three years. Why don't we relax with the predictions of doom?

And on Bernie Vince - how many games did Knights dominate in the SANFL before he could translate it to AFL form? About two years worth? The change in pace and role will take Bernie time to adjust to.

Exactly. Quality post.

Big boys are match winners, Doughty's and the Massie types are valuable types, but don't win matches. Big boys hold good value in trade week so perhaps with our excess of big guys we may manufacture a trade where we get a reasonable return.

Tippett IMO, may take 3 years to develop. Griff took that amount of time so its fair to expect Tipp may take the same.

As for Vince, he's a good player with reasonable skills. Give him time, could be a good player, could be nothing more than servicable. Good SANFL form suggests he is at least off to a good start with his development.

 

[NikkiNoo]

Disagree that Doughty won't win you matches, I distinctly remember a game last year where it was Doughty that stood up, not one of our stars, when were getting comprehensively beaten. He put his body on the line, stopped the opposition running into an open goal, turned the footy over and we kicked a goal. That little momentum change caused by him sparked the team into action and the love on this board after that game for one michael doughty was very large.

It never really is ONE thing that will win you a match but that day that courageous act and desire to get that football no matter what was a significant change to the game in my mind.

 

[CrowHop]

Disagree that Doughty won't win you matches, I distinctly remember a game last year where it was Doughty that stood up, not one of our stars, when were getting comprehensively beaten. He put his body on the line, stopped the opposition running into an open goal, turned the footy over and we kicked a goal. That little momentum change caused by him sparked the team into action and the love on this board after that game for one michael doughty was very large.

It never really is ONE thing that will win you a match but that day that courageous act and desire to get that football no matter what was a significant change to the game in my mind.

I meant more in general the Massie and Torney -types- not the individual players.

 

[Cap]

Disagree that Doughty won't win you matches, I distinctly remember a game last year where it was Doughty that stood up, not one of our stars, when were getting comprehensively beaten. He put his body on the line, stopped the opposition running into an open goal, turned the footy over and we kicked a goal. That little momentum change caused by him sparked the team into action and the love on this board after that game for one michael doughty was very large.

It never really is ONE thing that will win you a match but that day that courageous act and desire to get that football no matter what was a significant change to the game in my mind.

first showdown last year - in the rain ? kicked 3 goals ?

that reminds me of Mark Viska - a gun when it rained and everyone else was as slow as him !!

 

[NikkiNoo]

I meant more in general the Massie and Torney -types- not the individual players.

But you used Doughty as an example of that type of player and I gave an example of where your stereotyping falls down, so you can't turn around now and go well I didn't really mean him. Whose to say that Massie and Torney can't do the things that win us matches as well or that they haven't at some stage of their career. If they aren't going to help us win matches then they shouldn't get a game under your belief.

It's a TEAM game and everyone in our team has a role to play in order to assist us in winning the game.

 

[CrowHop]

But you used Doughty as an example of that type of player and I gave an example of where your stereotyping falls down, so you can't turn around now and go well I didn't really mean him. Whose to say that Massie and Torney can't do the things that win us matches as well or that they haven't at some stage of their career. If they aren't going to help us win matches then they shouldn't get a game under your belief.

It's a TEAM game and everyone in our team has a role to play in order to assist us in winning the game.

My post refers to the Doughty and Massie types, not the individual players. Im sure all types of players have somewhat significantly contributed to many wins in the AFC history, thats obvious.

However, one smother in a 120 minute game of football also hardly qualifies as winning a game off your own boot. Wouldnt you agree ? I do acknowledge that probably did swing the momentum at the time though.

As for them not getting a game if they dont help us win matches, I hardly meant or implied that.

Definitely agree with the team game mentality versus the Star Player approach.

 

[Drummond]

By the way, do we have any stats from the SANFL matches yet?

Massie: 14 kicks, 22 handballs, 6 marks. BOG.
Campbell: 10 kicks, 10 handballs, 4 marks. 6th best.
McGregor: 10 kicks, 4 handballs, 6 marks. 
Vince: 14 kicks, 12 handballs, 7 marks, 1 goal. 3rd best.
Gill: 7 kicks, 1 handball, 7 marks, 1 goal

Archard: 11 kicks, 14 handballs, 8 marks, 3 goals. 2nd best.
Gallman: 9 kicks, 2 handballs, 4 marks.

 

[Jars458]

No I don't, are you suggesting Massie is a soft player and doesn't put his body on the line? I agree Torney is a better option and Massie may not be an in and under type but if you think Massie does not put his body on the line you know nothing about football.

Well said. Massie is very hard at it.

Torney won't be dropped though.

 

[ThePeckers]

If mattner gets suspended ill be SPITTING chips! Its a persons natural reaction to do wat he did. anything more then a warning is a complete joke

 

[reCOGnise]

vinces form in the AFL compared with that of the SANFL suggest he needs a solid 5-10 games straight in the sanfl to get "match fitness" and confidence up!


drummond you have been awfully quick in decieding that Vince will not makethe cut and frankly there is no real evidence that you have give that suggests ur claim is true. things take time, AFL players dont just become amazing afl players over night all good things take time.

he will be a large asset for AFC in the nearish future

 

[Allefgib]

But you used Doughty as an example of that type of player and I gave an example of where your stereotyping falls down, so you can't turn around now and go well I didn't really mean him. Whose to say that Massie and Torney can't do the things that win us matches as well or that they haven't at some stage of their career. If they aren't going to help us win matches then they shouldn't get a game under your belief.

It's a TEAM game and everyone in our team has a role to play in order to assist us in winning the game.

Normally think you talk ALOT of sense Nikki but got to disagree with you on a few things here (doesn't mean you're not talking sense though )

Stereotypes are just that.. stereotypes, always going to be someone to break them but 'in general' they hold true. In talking of 'match winners' I think CrowHop is right.. the big boys are the ones that will consistently prove the difference in winning matches. Craigy can get nearly anyone to play the type of footy you want (I love your posts on expectations of everyone playing for the team has to do the team things, your insights into Edwards this year made me have a think about his efforts this year for one). But think of the match-winners over the history of football, in general they are your big key Forwards. When was the last time someone one a premiership without a very good key forward? (besides last year ).

In general I think your focus on team football is essential to our success as a football club but we are going to need more than just desire to go all the way, we need talented big men.

 

[NikkiNoo]

Normally think you talk ALOT of sense Nikki but got to disagree with you on a few things here (doesn't mean you're not talking sense though )

Stereotypes are just that.. stereotypes, always going to be someone to break them but 'in general' they hold true. In talking of 'match winners' I think CrowHop is right.. the big boys are the ones that will consistently prove the difference in winning matches. Craigy can get nearly anyone to play the type of footy you want (I love your posts on expectations of everyone playing for the team has to do the team things, your insights into Edwards this year made me have a think about his efforts this year for one). But think of the match-winners over the history of football, in general they are your big key Forwards. When was the last time someone one a premiership without a very good key forward? (besides last year ).

In general I think your focus on team football is essential to our success as a football club but we are going to need more than just desire to go all the way, we need talented big men.

Did the Big Key Forward perform in those Grand Finals?

Essendon 2000 - Lloyd 4 goals and Barnard also kicked 4 goals
Melbourne - Neitz 2 - 3, and Schwarz did nothing
You could say that from those figures that if Schwarz performed then Melbourne may have won but Barnard kicked 4 and I wouldn't call him a talented big man!

Brisbane 2001 - Brown 2 - 2 and Lynch 2 - 4
Essendon - Lucas 4 -2, Lloyd 5 -2
This is a real case in point to me, Essendon had better performance scoring wise from their big men and they lost the game. It was the lesser light in Bradshaw that was the highest scorer for Brisbane and more output from the rest of the team.

Brisbane 2002 - Brown 1-0, Lynch 4-2
Collingwood Rocca 4-1, Fraser 3-2
Lynch did well, but so did Rocca and Brown was minimal and Fraser gave a greater output. We all know that Brown is the better talent than Fraser who is not a KKP or a ruckman but a bit of both.

Brisbane 2003 - Brown 2-0, Lynch 4-2 and Aker kicked 5-3 and I wouldn't call him a big forward!
Collingwood - Tarrant 1-2, Fraser 1-0 (Didak was their highest goal kicker)
Ok Lynch is consistent in GF's, but it was the smaller players that dominanted the scoring on this occassion apart from Lynch. Was he the difference or was it Aker?

Port 2004 - Tredrea 1-2 (Wanganeen was their highest goal scorer along with Pickett)
Brisbane - Brown 0-1, Lynch 0-0, Notting and Aker their highest goal scorers though
It was the smaller forwards and midfielders that decided this game.

Sydney 2005 - Hall 2-1
WC - Hunter 2-1
Low scoring game with the same output from both their Key Forwards. Hunter isn't a mug and is quite hard to match up on.

WC 2006 - Lynch 3, Embly, Hansen and Cousins all with 2 goals
Sydney - Hall 0-2, O'Loughlin 3-1 and Davis 3 were their highest goal scorers
For WC it was their tall mobile fleet and Cousins that performed. Hall did nothing, Micky did well except for his inability to kick a score and again a smaller player in Davis that feed off the packs.

You also only have to look at our success in 97 and 98 against teams that HAD those dominant big guys - Hall for the Saints and Carey for the Roos, did they manage to take that one step that got them a premiership? Who assisted us in 97 to take that step? Ellen did, and the whole team performed well and how much can we take that they lifted that extra cog because of Ellen being that surprise packet in the first quarter and then having to lift as well due to injuries that meant we couldn't use our bench effectively.

In 98, my family and friends all thought Hart should have been the Norm Smith Medallist as he kept us in the game in the first half. It was the younger guys that never gave up that weren't stars at that stage of their career that got us over the line in the end in that game.

I hate this misconception that people have that their team needs a big star before they can take that next step. How many big stars are there in the AFL really? Is there one in each team? Carlton has one and where are they sitting? The game has changed and people's perceptions need to change with it. Only look at the big stars and where their teams are sitting

Saints - Kosi and Reiwoldt
Sydney - Hall
Carlton - Fev
Essendon - Lloyd and Lucas is a talent just can't convert
Richmond - Richardson
Melbourne - Neitz (is he in the same list as FEv, Hall et al?)
Freo - Pavlich and Tarrant
Hawthorn - Franklin (who will be a freak once he becomes consistent)
Brisbane - Brown

 

[finn]

I'd bring in ken macgregor for griffin (if injured) or stevens (if griffin isn't) on the basis that melbourne have one real ruckman (white) and a project player (johnson or jamar). Macgregor will give you more around the ground than maric in terms of mobility, marking power and general utility. My opinion only, but I believe he's also got more natural talent than either of stevens or maric - nobone of these three player's commitment can be faulted.
I'd also suggest massie has probably paid his last game in the hoops - he gives 100% but unfortunately is stuck in the size in which adelaide has many options. It's a shame but as a norwood supporter, not the worst thing in the world.
I'd also like to see vince in the midfield/wing where his ball sense would be more dangerous. This is probably a long term idea though.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

vinces form in the AFL compared with that of the SANFL suggest he needs a solid 5-10 games straight in the sanfl to get "match fitness" and confidence up!

So true.

It is easy to lose form when you are playing a bit-part role than you are not used to at a higher level.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

I hate this misconception that people have that their team needs a big star before they can take that next step. How many big stars are there in the AFL really? Is there one in each team? Carlton has one and where are they sitting? The game has changed and people's perceptions need to change with it. Only look at the big stars and where their teams are sitting

Saints - Kosi and Reiwoldt
Sydney - Hall
Carlton - Fev
Essendon - Lloyd and Lucas is a talent just can't convert
Richmond - Richardson
Melbourne - Neitz (is he in the same list as FEv, Hall et al?)
Freo - Pavlich and Tarrant
Hawthorn - Franklin (who will be a freak once he becomes consistent)
Brisbane - Brown

Fabulous post Nikki ......IMO Vic clubs still subscribe to that "star" system your talking about .......yet your absolutely correct that NC has tried to steer the Crows away from that to a team approach ....hence all the structured gameplans and strategies.

Under the star system ...they say kick it to jobob and get out of his way .....too often history says that jobob underperforms in big matches either because of extra focus from opposition, the pressure of expectation, or a physical ailment.

The Bulldogs are also adopting the "team" approach

Which therefore has me puzzled why you would want to sell the farm to get Pavlich, as good as he is, versus developing Sellar and Tippett and retaining high draft picks??

It seems to me the chase for Pavlich is somewhat akin to wanting that "star" player and subscribing to the star system???

 

[Stiffy_18]

Fabulous post Nikki ......IMO Vic clubs still subscribe to that "star" system your talking about .......yet your absolutely correct that NC has tried to steer the Crows away from that to a team approach ....hence all the structured gameplans and strategies.

Under the star system ...they say kick it to jobob and get out of his way .....too often history says that jobob underperforms in big matches either because of extra focus from opposition, the pressure of expectation, or a physical ailment.

The Bulldogs are also adopting the "team" approach

Which therefore has me puzzled why you would want to sell the farm to get Pavlich, as good as he is, versus developing Sellar and Tippett and retaining high draft picks??

It seems to me the chase for Pavlich is somewhat akin to wanting that "star" player and subscribing to the star system???

You would be wrong!

First and foremost, to win you need talent. Now having that talent doesn't mean you are subscribing to the star system. It means that you want to have talent on your list.

Now using Pavlich as an example, us wanting to get him is NOT us subscribing to the star system. Its us wanting to improve our talent, especially in the area where our stocks are probably the weakest in terms of pure talent.

If we do get Pavlcih (I hope we do ), its not us subscribing to star system but rather improving the team system by adding more pure talent to it. If Pavlich comes here, we won't be relying on him like Carlton is on Fevola. Pavlich will be part of the team system and because of his talent and ability, he will improve that team system because the talent in the structure will be greater. Pavlich would still kick his X number of goals in a season but the way he gets those goals will not be the same as he does in Freo. Here he would be a part of the system where as in Fremantle, he IS the system

 

[mickyj]

vinces form in the AFL compared with that of the SANFL suggest he needs a solid 5-10 games straight in the sanfl to get "match fitness" and confidence up!


drummond you have been awfully quick in decieding that Vince will not makethe cut and frankly there is no real evidence that you have give that suggests ur claim is true. things take time, AFL players dont just become amazing afl players over night all good things take time.

he will be a large asset for AFC in the nearish future

Firstly let me say this from a WWT(as well as a crows fan)fans point of view.When a player is dropped by his afl club and then returns to his SANFL team normally the first game back is a shocker, not really sure why this happens .But it does normally happen to players coming back to WWT.

Now on Sunday we had the acception to the rule .Bernie Vince was almost a ball magnet in the early part of the game and surprised me with what he did .
And certainly he did not look like the same player who played for the crows the week before. a big to bernie on his game.

 

[mickyj]

I'd bring in ken macgregor for griffin (if injured) or stevens (if griffin isn't) on the basis that melbourne have one real ruckman (white) and a project player (johnson or jamar). Macgregor will give you more around the ground than maric in terms of mobility, marking power and general utility. My opinion only, but I believe he's also got more natural talent than either of stevens or maric - nobone of these three player's commitment can be faulted.
I'd also suggest massie has probably paid his last game in the hoops - he gives 100% but unfortunately is stuck in the size in which adelaide has many options. It's a shame but as a norwood supporter, not the worst thing in the world.
I'd also like to see vince in the midfield/wing where his ball sense would be more dangerous. This is probably a long term idea though.

I would not agree with using Kenny Mac as a ruckman after watching him earlier in the year being tried in the ruck against west adelaide .
Would prefer to see him used as a chb or chfor even a dummy FF.