Scarlett v Lake

Discussion in 'Polls Board' started by Benny78, Jan 7, 2018.

Put it out there
?

Which defender?

  1. Matthew Scarlett

    29 vote(s)
    55.8%
  2. Brian Lake

    23 vote(s)
    44.2%
  1. Benny78

    Benny78 Premiership Player

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    Which defender would you have in your side?
     

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  2. cryptor

    cryptor Premium Gold

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    If it just for a constrained period like say a GF, or a season... or 3. I would pick Lake. If it's to have from draft to retirement then Scarlett.

    I rate Lake's very best as better but it was always very hit or miss as to whether you'd get 'Good Brian' or 'Bad Brian'. Hawthorn were lucky to get mostly 'Good Brian' when we needed him, likely due to him having the very real opportunity to win flags on the line throughout his time with us. We'd occasionally get 'Bad Brian' aka 'Brianfade Harris' and while it was sometimes funny (given Hawthorn were usually still winning), I can see how a career of that at a club that was devoid of success would quickly piss you off. That being teammates, coaches and supporters.

    And then obviously Scarlett is an all-time great. Pretty much a star his whole career and one of the best defenders of all time. If the 18 year old versions of Scarlett and Lake are available in the same draft at your pick and you had the knowledge available to us, then you'd have to take Scarlett. Far more reliable highs than lows to be had over that career.
     
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  3. Gosha

    Gosha Norm Smith Medallist

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    Tough one. Both very good but just below that top tier of greatest ever defenders (Rance, Silvagni, etc.)

    Scarlett was better for longer, although Lake’s best was better so it’s hard to decide. Genuine flip of the coin.
     
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  4. 100action

    100action Norm Smith Medallist

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    Just lmao at Rance. Needs another 20 years at the top level to be up there mate.
     
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  5. Procrastinator35

    Procrastinator35 Brownlow Medallist

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    Lake was far superior in the air.....Scarlett was a cheating scragging flog.
     
  6. Lethality

    Lethality Brownlow Medallist

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    Scarlett was overrated. He was supposedly a great full-back because the media said he was, rather than for any particular identifiable reason.
     
  7. Monkey King

    Monkey King Brownlow Medallist

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    Mike Sheehan drove this. One day Mike just decided that Scarlett was the best FB since Dench and he pushed his agenda hard at every opportunity. Scarlett was a great defender no doubt about it, but I agree, thanks to media promotion, he comes in a little higher than I’d have him.
     
  8. KissKiss

    KissKiss Premiership Player

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    I sort of feel this applies to many of the great defenders. I have heard the same comments applied to SOS, Scarlett and Rance in recent years
     
  9. Bemoreboyddog

    Bemoreboyddog Norm Smith Medallist

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    Think Lake’s best was better than Scarlett but overall I’d take Scarlett.
     
  10. juss

    juss Brownlow Medallist

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    I give it to Scarlett on consistancy, Lake wasnt as good for as long.
     
  11. Procrastinator35

    Procrastinator35 Brownlow Medallist

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    Bullshit....Both averaged 15 disposals across their careers with Lake averaging 6 & a half marks to Scarletts 5.

    Scarlett played 15 seasons to Lake's 14 & 28 games more due to Lake's injury interruptions.

    Scarlett played in a top side with an all Australian defense surrounding him, while Lake held the Dogs defense single-handedly....He was also the difference maker in turning the Hawks from also-rans into triple-premiers.
     
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  12. juss

    juss Brownlow Medallist

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    Are you actually using disposal averages as an argument to say they were equal?
    Lake was a better mark, no doubt, but Im not sure his 1.5 marks more per game is equivalent to Scarlett's 4 more AAs.

    Lakey has a Norm Smith which is great, but it doesnt change my original point that Scarlett was better for longer.

    Its not a knock on Lake to be not as good as Scarlett. Lake was a great player, Scarlett was just better.

    The funniest part is you try to discredit Scarlett by saying he played in a good side with gun players around him but dont mention that Lake also played in 3 flags and was helped out by Gibson, Hodge, Birchall and Roughy dropping back. Stop and think before you make a post next time.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  13. Procrastinator35

    Procrastinator35 Brownlow Medallist

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    No....I'm saying Lake was better, as he wasn't surrounded by better players like Scarlett was.

    That should be pretty obvious.....One on one, Lake would monster him & eat the over-rated flog for breakfast.
     
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  14. juss

    juss Brownlow Medallist

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    So because Scarlett played with good players (as did Lake), it somehow makes Scarlett a worse player?
    Why would two KPDs play one on one against each other?
    Your arguments are bizarre.
     
  15. jackenny

    jackenny All Australian

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    Honestly, I would pick Scarlett, Lake, and Rance over SOS. If you watch old games of SOS on Youtube or Fox, you just sit back and scratch your head as to why people call him the Fullback of the Century.

    You can get GAJ Sr. You can see that shit for yourself. You can see him monster people. You can see the absolute class and freak for your own eyes.

    I have never seen a game where SOS monstered anyone as a defender. I don't see any freaky ability. I see a little bit of class, but no more than a lot of modern day defenders. Hell, I've seen players with enough height absolutely monster SOS.
     
  16. Monkey King

    Monkey King Brownlow Medallist

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    Maybe you just haven’t watched enough. There’s a reason some of the best forwards the game has seen, like Dunstall, Lockett and Hird, named SOS as their best opponent. Could outmark the best, strangle forwards as diverse as Hird, Carey and Ablett and kick bags of goals up the other end. Dunstall even had him as one of the top 5 players he’s seen play, not just defenders. I reckon you’re missing something with your description.
     
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  17. jackenny

    jackenny All Australian

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    I've heard people describe him as the GOAT. But, I definitely haven't seen it. Out of curiosity, can you name me a game you've seen where you thought "that shit is as good as we'll ever see"?

    I can't. I've seen better from Rance and Lake.

    SOS looked more like a handy third tall than a FB in the games I've seen. Was a solid kick for exiting the ball, ran off his man to gain metres. Could roam forward and kick goals. Saw his ass get handed to him one-on-one against blokes who were too big for him to handle, though. Definitely his greatest weakness (in no way was he a monster fullback, played his worst one-on-one against sizeable opponents). I can see him being named one of the greatest tall utilities, but he just doesn't measure up as the greatest fullback.

    For example, watching the 1995 Grand Final, he basically did a small cameo while Carlton's midfield and forwardline bullied Geelong. I've seen this lauded as his best game. Gary Ablett remained goalless - but this was a thirty-four year old Ablett, one year before retiring from AFL - and that's lauded as one of SOS's greatest games ever? Beating up on an ageing champion? I just don't see it. Also, Ablett was surprisingly short, although he played like a key position player. But, Ablett would never be able to rag-doll SOS.

    Now, against giants like Paul Selmon or Plugger, SOS did get rag-dolled.

    There's Plugger's infamous 10 goal haul (and seven behinds) in 1989.

    Paul Salmon kicking 5 goals against SOS in the 1993 Grand Final.

    The two above games are blokes in their twenties. We're not talking about a mid-twenties SOS beating up on a mid-thirties champion in the twilight of his career. These are examples of games where you have a couple blokes both at the peak of their age brackets going at it, and SOS coming second-best.

    SOS being the best is BS. I'd easily choose Scarlett ahead of him. Lake and Rance, too.

    I'd even be tempted to choose Michael Hurley ahead of him.

    I've seen Hawkins and Lake wrestle and duel each other one-on-one and it look like a titanic battle between two AFL gorillas. The idea of SOS going at it with Hawkins is laughable.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  18. juss

    juss Brownlow Medallist

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    You need to get your keys, get in the car and just drive. Do not tell anyone where youre going. Carlton fans are going to hunt you down.
     
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  19. Monkey King

    Monkey King Brownlow Medallist

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    I watched SOS play first hand in well over 100 games and he simply wasn’t the player you’re describing. So watch more games is all I can suggest and see why some of the greatest forwards to even play the game name him their greatest FB opponent, because you’re clearly missing a pretty big piece of the picture.

    It’s obvious you didn’t follow football during that era. The whole “beating up on an aging champion” comment? Ablett kicked 120+ goals in 95’ FFS and was one the game’s most damaging forwards. Or to think that a player who could out work Wayne Carey would struggle on Tom Hawkins ... clueless!

    And yes, Lockett got hold of a 21yo SOS. Carey got hold of SOS once in 94’ too. Modra did as well once. But the amount of times SOS played on and handled well all these guys you claim ragdolled him was many. That you ignore those and instead focus on the rarer times he was beaten and then present them as the norm, rather than the exception they were, is curious to say the least.
     
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  20. Frank Gallagher

    Frank Gallagher A Seasoned Campaigner.

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    He was the best in the comp for a while, Scarlett for mine but i'd be happy with either.

    Scarlett get bonus points for laying out Ballintine as well.
     
  21. Stratton_Gun

    Stratton_Gun Brownlow Medallist

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    Mayne bias but Lake for me. Although even before 2013 I had rated Lake higher. His ability to read the play was 2nd to none. In saying that he was lazy and overweight at times. When he started with us was at BHH and didnt set the world on fire
     
  22. jackenny

    jackenny All Australian

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    Tony Lockett was only one year older than SOS. Him being 21, a month away from being 22 at the time (Plugger had only just turned 23) isn't really a salient excuse for being decimated in that game. Again, his age at the time bares no excuse (it's not like he was an 18 year old taking on a 25 year old Plugger).

    In any case, out of the well-over hundred games you watched, you're free to give me one or more that you feel stand-out as games that set him apart from other full-backs as the very best.

    edit: also, Ablett was definitely in his twilight years in 1995. In 1994, he kicked more goals than 1995 (had a much better finals series, too - up until the GF - bagging 16 goals in 1994's finals series as opposed to 4 in 1995), and was still held to one goal in the Grand Final against West Coast. The West Coast player to keep him to one goal isn't even in the conversation as the best fullback for some reason, though (note: sarcasm). Despite Ablett being more dangerous and younger in that game. Michael Brennan, that is. Doesn't even have an All-Australian to his name. Basically, beating up on old-man Ablett in a GF at this time isn't as great an achievement as has been made out.

    Hell, a guy named Matthew Richardson used to beat the tar out of SOS. In 1993, 18 year old Matthew Richardson kicked 3 goals and 3 behinds on a 26 year old SOS. That's not Best in the World stuff. In 1996, an All-Australian year for both players (SOS was chosen as full-back, Richo was chosen on the freakin' interchange), a 21 year old Richo kicked a bag of 6 goals 6 behinds against SOS.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  23. Monkey King

    Monkey King Brownlow Medallist

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    Lockett was a man-child who’d already kicked a tonne at 21yo. SOS got towelled up by him as a 21yo when he wasn’t even a mainstay FB. You seem to think that’s some revelation of SOS’ career as a FB. I’d start here with why you’re at odds with the opinions of some of the best forwards to have played the game, who saw him live and close up, not just on YouTube.

    Same with your notions of Ablett; 95’ was Ablett’s 3rd Coleman medal in a row. He was arguably the best forward in the game. Idk, maybe if you didn’t follow footy at the time you just don’t know the kind of dominance he played with. Re Brennan’s performance the previous year, some had him second BOG to Kemp for his efforts on the great man, so no idea what you’re on about there. SOS wasn’t lauded for that game as much for his finals series as a whole, conceding just one goal from 3 games against the likes of Carey and Ablett, giants of the game at the time. If you can’t appreciate that effort, then you’re missing something.

    Overall you seem to lack knowledge of the era you’re talking about.

    It’s a fair point on Richo though. The only two forwards I ever saw trouble SOS regularly were Richo and Modra.

    Anyway, enough derailing for me, there’s a SOS thread someone I’m sure you could post your thoughts in.
     
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  24. juss

    juss Brownlow Medallist

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    Richo was a gun, he had days out against most defenders during his career, very few were as athletic, big and strong as Richo, and he had some of the best marking ability you'll ever see.

    The thing is, as a fullback, being beaten, and well beaten, doesn't discount them as being great. There seems to be this bigfooty myth that to be considered a great fullback you can never be beaten. Every single fullback in the game that has played at the highest level for long enough has been beaten a number of times. It happens.
     
  25. Gosha

    Gosha Norm Smith Medallist

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    Lol what? Rance is already the best defender the game has ever seen. He still has another five years of elite football ahead of him. It’s almost insulting comparing defenders to him because he’s so far ahead and hasn’t even finished his career.