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Scott Welsh leaving
- Thread starter Freddy Bassett
- Start date
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FlyingCrow
Premiership Player
Re: Welsh gone
Be a tough gig being his. I bet he has to drive him to training each day so he dont forget the way.
Yeah I know..was joking
Be a tough gig being his. I bet he has to drive him to training each day so he dont forget the way.
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- Moderator
- #330
Re: Welsh gone
I am not agreeing to his whole post, just parts of it.
I am talking about the 30 year old one year deals and players getting cut because of their age and not their performance.
I dont think it is a happy enviornment at present, we have guys like Hudson and Welsh walking out because they dont have any confidence in their future at the club and we cut Torney because of his age even though he is better than some of the mid 20s guys on our list that remain on there.
The 1 year contract rule for every player approaching 30 is a joke IMO and so is cutting a guy solely because of his age even if he is still playing good footy.
As for you claiming that my belief that the club and coaching is inflexible is crap ?? Then ask yourself why Mattner left, do you think that maybe the fact that the coaching staff were playing him out of position and persisting with it because it was what they wanted to do ?? It clearly wasnt getting the best of him and in the end he went from someone who loved being at the club to jumping on the first train out of here.
How can someone dispute that it doesnt appear a happy environment when Mattner is gone, Huddo has left and so has Welsh and we saw McGregor walk out on the club and I believe through lack of interest by other clubs that he has come back to the club.
cRap ......stop regurgitating stuff from other posts and then claiming it as fact.
Nothing to do with Welsh's, Hudsons or Mattners departure.
Oh and yes Bode and Tourney asked to be delisted because they were unhappy with the environment.
Cmon think about your posts
I am not agreeing to his whole post, just parts of it.
I am talking about the 30 year old one year deals and players getting cut because of their age and not their performance.
I dont think it is a happy enviornment at present, we have guys like Hudson and Welsh walking out because they dont have any confidence in their future at the club and we cut Torney because of his age even though he is better than some of the mid 20s guys on our list that remain on there.
The 1 year contract rule for every player approaching 30 is a joke IMO and so is cutting a guy solely because of his age even if he is still playing good footy.
As for you claiming that my belief that the club and coaching is inflexible is crap ?? Then ask yourself why Mattner left, do you think that maybe the fact that the coaching staff were playing him out of position and persisting with it because it was what they wanted to do ?? It clearly wasnt getting the best of him and in the end he went from someone who loved being at the club to jumping on the first train out of here.
How can someone dispute that it doesnt appear a happy environment when Mattner is gone, Huddo has left and so has Welsh and we saw McGregor walk out on the club and I believe through lack of interest by other clubs that he has come back to the club.
jenny61_99
Premium Platinum
Re: Welsh gone
A little bit of Macca magic in the forward lines wouldn't go astray. 5 handballs from Macca = 5 goals.
A little bit of Macca magic in the forward lines wouldn't go astray. 5 handballs from Macca = 5 goals.
- Banned
- #332
Re: Welsh gone
Don't you need to use your foot and kick the goal?
A little bit of Macca magic in the forward lines wouldn't go astray. 5 handballs from Macca = 5 goals.
Don't you need to use your foot and kick the goal?
Re: Welsh gone
I am guessing Welsh wasn't being offered a whole lot of money with his contract otherwise he wouldn't have left.
This begs the question, with Roo, Torney & Hudson gone (add Welsh as well). Who the hell is getting all our money? Concerning.
I am guessing Welsh wasn't being offered a whole lot of money with his contract otherwise he wouldn't have left.
This begs the question, with Roo, Torney & Hudson gone (add Welsh as well). Who the hell is getting all our money? Concerning.
WaynesWorld19
Post-Human
Re: Welsh gone
Not sure whats happening with your quotes ....but I did not make that statement about Bradley being rubbish that was attributed to meBradley turned 22 today - that's young.
He's already played 49 games for Essendon, where he received a Mattner - he was played out of position.
He's ready to plug and play.
why when I quote Macca23 did his quote get recorded against rex-crow??? ......some weird stuff here
Drugs Are Bad Mackay?
Moderator
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- #335
Re: Scott Welsh leaving?
Are all 30 year olds who have ever played in a premiership "tier-one" players?
For a football club to be successful it needs its players to emotionally invest in the club. Players have to care about the club and be proud to wear the guernsey. They must care about the well-being of their team mates, the coaching staff and the reputation and level of respect for the club from outside.
Only when a player cares about the club will he perform at his best. For a player to care deeply about the club, it is necessary for the club to care about him. If players are motivated purely by internal factors (their form, their contract, their reputation, their future) the team will suffer. Are our current policies leaving them with no choice but to think inwardly? You could certainly throw the 'club is bigger than the individual' line back at me but of course the club is made up of individuals.
We can make a decision to get rid of a player or to only offer a senior player a one year deal because it is statistically the right decision and risk-assessment wise is sensible for us to do so. This will ensure we avoid paying out hefty contracts Carlton-style to injury prone 32 year olds. But what is the actual cost of avoiding this risk?
Lack of job security? Players worrying more about their future more so than the fortunes of the club? Lack of trust? Resentment of those considered to be 'tier-one' players? Players looking a little harder for greener pastures? Are we going to see dumped Crows players parading outside AAMI Stadium Falling Down-style chanting "I am not... economically viable."?
I remember when Sturt made the finals in the late 80's after a barnstorming second half of the season we decided in our wisdom at season's end to make the perfectly understandable decision to get rid of Darryl Smith. He'd played well over 200 games, was starting to get a bit old and slow and probably wouldn't offer a hell of a lot to the league team the next year. Best to give a youngster an opportunity anyway... Unfortunately he shared a house with Laurence Schache and Rod Popplestone at the time and the three of them pissed off to West Torrens. We won 7 wooden spoons in a row after that.
Is this contract negotiation "hard ball" we are playing another policy along the lines of the Hudson suspension where the cure was far, far worse than the disease?
Mark Taylor will set a different field and will make different bowling changes to a Steve Waugh. Both were great captains for Australia. Neithers tactics could necessarily be consider right or wrong. However, if their players believe in and understand the decisions they have made, then they will help make them the right ones. I'd question whether the Adelaide players believe in the current contract policies.
Are all 30 year olds who have ever played in a premiership "tier-one" players?
For a football club to be successful it needs its players to emotionally invest in the club. Players have to care about the club and be proud to wear the guernsey. They must care about the well-being of their team mates, the coaching staff and the reputation and level of respect for the club from outside.
Only when a player cares about the club will he perform at his best. For a player to care deeply about the club, it is necessary for the club to care about him. If players are motivated purely by internal factors (their form, their contract, their reputation, their future) the team will suffer. Are our current policies leaving them with no choice but to think inwardly? You could certainly throw the 'club is bigger than the individual' line back at me but of course the club is made up of individuals.
We can make a decision to get rid of a player or to only offer a senior player a one year deal because it is statistically the right decision and risk-assessment wise is sensible for us to do so. This will ensure we avoid paying out hefty contracts Carlton-style to injury prone 32 year olds. But what is the actual cost of avoiding this risk?
Lack of job security? Players worrying more about their future more so than the fortunes of the club? Lack of trust? Resentment of those considered to be 'tier-one' players? Players looking a little harder for greener pastures? Are we going to see dumped Crows players parading outside AAMI Stadium Falling Down-style chanting "I am not... economically viable."?
I remember when Sturt made the finals in the late 80's after a barnstorming second half of the season we decided in our wisdom at season's end to make the perfectly understandable decision to get rid of Darryl Smith. He'd played well over 200 games, was starting to get a bit old and slow and probably wouldn't offer a hell of a lot to the league team the next year. Best to give a youngster an opportunity anyway... Unfortunately he shared a house with Laurence Schache and Rod Popplestone at the time and the three of them pissed off to West Torrens. We won 7 wooden spoons in a row after that.
Is this contract negotiation "hard ball" we are playing another policy along the lines of the Hudson suspension where the cure was far, far worse than the disease?
Mark Taylor will set a different field and will make different bowling changes to a Steve Waugh. Both were great captains for Australia. Neithers tactics could necessarily be consider right or wrong. However, if their players believe in and understand the decisions they have made, then they will help make them the right ones. I'd question whether the Adelaide players believe in the current contract policies.
Baron Winds
Team Captain
Re: Welsh gone
FF Tippet, Burton, Porplyzia
HF McLeod, McGregor, Gill
C Goodwin, Knights, Reilly
HB Johncock, Bock, Massie
FB Basset, Rutten, Stevens
Ruck Griffin, Thompson, Van Berlo
I/C Maric, Douglas, Edwards, Jericho
EMG Biglands, Moran, Symes, Sellar
Pretty abstract on some calls but every year McLeod has played in the backline i curse and swear that his freakish ball handling abilities, speed and agility would make him a kick as forward and it is being wasted in the backline. Would absolutely love to see macca in the forward line up *crosses fingers*
It is going to be a very interesting year in 2008 and i for one am highly looking forward to it. There will be alot of shuffling thats for sure.. I can see McGregor, Massie, Biglands, Maric, Moran, Symes, Jericho, Sellar and a few others all being juggled in and out of the side, having speratic appearances through out the year. Alot will depend on the PS too.. Cant wait till March 23... Only 129 days to go
FF Tippet, Burton, Porplyzia
HF McLeod, McGregor, Gill
C Goodwin, Knights, Reilly
HB Johncock, Bock, Massie
FB Basset, Rutten, Stevens
Ruck Griffin, Thompson, Van Berlo
I/C Maric, Douglas, Edwards, Jericho
EMG Biglands, Moran, Symes, Sellar
Pretty abstract on some calls but every year McLeod has played in the backline i curse and swear that his freakish ball handling abilities, speed and agility would make him a kick as forward and it is being wasted in the backline. Would absolutely love to see macca in the forward line up *crosses fingers*
It is going to be a very interesting year in 2008 and i for one am highly looking forward to it. There will be alot of shuffling thats for sure.. I can see McGregor, Massie, Biglands, Maric, Moran, Symes, Jericho, Sellar and a few others all being juggled in and out of the side, having speratic appearances through out the year. Alot will depend on the PS too.. Cant wait till March 23... Only 129 days to go
Asgardian
Bigfooty Jedi
Re: Welsh gone
Did you mean sporadic?
Regarding Brad Symes, I see little point to him going to the Crows if the talk there wasn't about him getting regular games.
Did you mean sporadic?
Regarding Brad Symes, I see little point to him going to the Crows if the talk there wasn't about him getting regular games.
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Re: Welsh gone
It seems lately there have been a few people that are only quoting part of other people's posts and forgetting to put [/QUOTE] on the end of it again.
It seems lately there have been a few people that are only quoting part of other people's posts and forgetting to put [/QUOTE] on the end of it again.
jenny61_99
Premium Platinum
Re: Welsh gone
Cute! perhaps I should have drawn the picture of Macca firing out a quick handball that pinpoints a player running past who then kicks the goal.
Don't you need to use your foot and kick the goal?
Cute! perhaps I should have drawn the picture of Macca firing out a quick handball that pinpoints a player running past who then kicks the goal.
jenny61_99
Premium Platinum
Re: Welsh gone
Love your call on Macca! Ive been saying it for a few months too.
FF Tippet, Burton, Porplyzia
HF McLeod, McGregor, Gill
C Goodwin, Knights, Reilly
HB Johncock, Bock, Massie
FB Basset, Rutten, Stevens
Ruck Griffin, Thompson, Van Berlo
I/C Maric, Douglas, Edwards, Jericho
EMG Biglands, Moran, Symes, Sellar
Pretty abstract on some calls but every year McLeod has played in the backline i curse and swear that his freakish ball handling abilities, speed and agility would make him a kick as forward and it is being wasted in the backline. Would absolutely love to see macca in the forward line up *crosses fingers*
It is going to be a very interesting year in 2008 and i for one am highly looking forward to it. There will be alot of shuffling thats for sure.. I can see McGregor, Massie, Biglands, Maric, Moran, Symes, Jericho, Sellar and a few others all being juggled in and out of the side, having speratic appearances through out the year. Alot will depend on the PS too.. Cant wait till March 23... Only 129 days to go
Love your call on Macca! Ive been saying it for a few months too.
Baron Winds
Team Captain
Re: Welsh gone
Thanks for pointing that out for me, i was going to do a spell check but figured being the adelaide board there wouldnt be too many grammar nazis and everyone would know what i meant even if it was spelt wrong
Just a couple of vids that support my idea about Macca
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Buyf1EAi82U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaftIbZyR7o
Thanks for pointing that out for me, i was going to do a spell check but figured being the adelaide board there wouldnt be too many grammar nazis and everyone would know what i meant even if it was spelt wrong
Just a couple of vids that support my idea about Macca
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Buyf1EAi82U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaftIbZyR7o
- Moderator
- #342
Re: Welsh gone
Agreed, I dont think the crows wouldnt trade a second round pick for a player that they didnt envisage being in their first 22.
Agreed, I dont think the crows wouldnt trade a second round pick for a player that they didnt envisage being in their first 22.
Re: Scott Welsh leaving?
Some here have stated that he is only thinking of his future and his young family is the reason why he is looking for greener pastures.
However knowing that he supposedly had a strongly worded contract that contained certain on and off field behaviour guidelines in it, I don't get the impression he was thinking of them when he did the things both reported and unknown to the general public.
I happened to have heard a sound bite from JR last evening where he really pointed out these two reasons why he wasn't being offered a guaranteed two year contract, but a one year with certain conditions and if those were seen by the club to have been successful, then he would have got his second year.
I dont see anything wrong with that.
Some here have stated that he is only thinking of his future and his young family is the reason why he is looking for greener pastures.
However knowing that he supposedly had a strongly worded contract that contained certain on and off field behaviour guidelines in it, I don't get the impression he was thinking of them when he did the things both reported and unknown to the general public.
I happened to have heard a sound bite from JR last evening where he really pointed out these two reasons why he wasn't being offered a guaranteed two year contract, but a one year with certain conditions and if those were seen by the club to have been successful, then he would have got his second year.
I dont see anything wrong with that.
Re: Welsh gone
Oh, spare me. Is Welsh going to be in the forward line of our next premiership? He's been a valuable contributor, but it's not like we're losing a consistent performer. He kicked goals against the bottom teams. Whoopy do. Craig is trying to build a consistent side to win a flag. Welsh can go an be an inconsistent performer at an inconsistent, lax club like the Dogs for all I care. I'm actually impressed that the club is coming before the individual.
Oh, spare me. Is Welsh going to be in the forward line of our next premiership? He's been a valuable contributor, but it's not like we're losing a consistent performer. He kicked goals against the bottom teams. Whoopy do. Craig is trying to build a consistent side to win a flag. Welsh can go an be an inconsistent performer at an inconsistent, lax club like the Dogs for all I care. I'm actually impressed that the club is coming before the individual.
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Re: Scott Welsh leaving?
Glad someone is willing to disagree with me. Would hate to think that everyone thought exactly the same way as me!
You are absolutely correct... up to a point.
No team can have 18 (or 22) tier one players. The salary cap sees to this. Every team will be made up of a mixture - some "tier one" superstars, some developing youngsters, the remainder being solid backboner type players.
The thing is that you can't have too many backboners, playing at the expense of the developing youngsters. This has been Adelaide's problem for the past 5-6 years.
The other thing is that you don't hang onto the backboners for that long. Most backboners get to have a reasonable career - 6-8 years, taking them to the age of 25-26, before they are quietly moved on. The AFC made the mistake of holding onto them to the age of 28-29.
Look at the list of retiring & delisted players this year, who are aged 30+. Almost every single one of them would be described as "tier-one":
Ricciuto, Scott, Voss, Johnson, Koutoufides, Lappin, Buckley, Hird, Camporeale (tier-one during his Carlton years), Darcy, Grant, Smith, Vandenburg (he WAS team Captain...), Archer, Gehrig.
About the only exception I can think of is St Kilda's Andrew Thompson, who retired as one of the oldest players in the AFL, but who was never more than a solid backboner.
In summary, every team will have players who are not tier-one superstars. It's just that none of them are the elder statesmen, they're the players who retire or are delisted in the middle-aged period.
As has been made clear, through the words of Stiffy & John Reid, there were other issues at play here besides his ability to play enough games. He was on a performance based contract this year and met the KPI targets, which forced the AFC to offer him a new contract.
Are his off-field issues the real reason, or was there an underlying decision that 2008 would be his last year anyway? I guess we'll never know.
And fair enough too.
Glad someone is willing to disagree with me. Would hate to think that everyone thought exactly the same way as me!
You are absolutely correct... up to a point.
No team can have 18 (or 22) tier one players. The salary cap sees to this. Every team will be made up of a mixture - some "tier one" superstars, some developing youngsters, the remainder being solid backboner type players.
The thing is that you can't have too many backboners, playing at the expense of the developing youngsters. This has been Adelaide's problem for the past 5-6 years.
The other thing is that you don't hang onto the backboners for that long. Most backboners get to have a reasonable career - 6-8 years, taking them to the age of 25-26, before they are quietly moved on. The AFC made the mistake of holding onto them to the age of 28-29.
Look at the list of retiring & delisted players this year, who are aged 30+. Almost every single one of them would be described as "tier-one":
Ricciuto, Scott, Voss, Johnson, Koutoufides, Lappin, Buckley, Hird, Camporeale (tier-one during his Carlton years), Darcy, Grant, Smith, Vandenburg (he WAS team Captain...), Archer, Gehrig.
About the only exception I can think of is St Kilda's Andrew Thompson, who retired as one of the oldest players in the AFL, but who was never more than a solid backboner.
In summary, every team will have players who are not tier-one superstars. It's just that none of them are the elder statesmen, they're the players who retire or are delisted in the middle-aged period.
As has been made clear, through the words of Stiffy & John Reid, there were other issues at play here besides his ability to play enough games. He was on a performance based contract this year and met the KPI targets, which forced the AFC to offer him a new contract.
Are his off-field issues the real reason, or was there an underlying decision that 2008 would be his last year anyway? I guess we'll never know.
And fair enough too.
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Re: Scott Welsh leaving?
Thats what he wanted, not what he was offered. The fact they didnt offer it to hom means they probably didnt have enough faith in the guy to offer him those conditions.
Thats what he wanted, not what he was offered. The fact they didnt offer it to hom means they probably didnt have enough faith in the guy to offer him those conditions.
Re: Welsh gone
Well said mate, agreed 100%. We don't need soft, undisciplined players who are unwilling to put the team first both on and off the field anyway. It opens up a great chance for someone young with potenial to fills Welshies spot, which I would honestly prefer next year.Look at the positives boys. Scotty Welsh aint going to take your mob or any other team to a premiership.
Good chance to find someone else and give them a crack.
Hopefully Trent Hentschel can get back to it a little sooner than hoped. One of my fav non Pies players.
Big Brad Moran could park his massive frame up forward and be tried out. Lot of potential in this kid.
Will Sellar get a crack in 08???
Welshy will probably end up sitting on the sidelines for quite a chunk of the year anyway.
Re: Welsh gone
Absolutely right. Don't let the door hit you on the bum on the way out Scott.
Re: Welsh gone
This seems to be a common misconception, with people mistakenly merging the two AFC age-related policies.
What we know of the policies are as follows:
The club has never stated anything about not offering players who are "approaching 30" single year contracts, unless they have valid reasons for doing so. Biglands was signed to a 2-year contract in September 2006, days after his 29th birthday. The only thing saving Michael "The Young One" Doughty from the sack this year was the fact that he's on a 2-year contract (ends 2008) which will see him past his 29th birthday.
The players who are only given 1-year contracts, before their 30th birthdays, all have good reasons why this should be the case.
In the case of Scott Welsh (2006), it was because of his history with injuries (having played only 6 games in 2006). In 2007, it remains injuries, with the added factor of off-field indiscretions weighing against him.
In other cases, it's because their on-field performances have been borderline. They know that they will be retained while they continue to perform, but that the club have the ability to give them the flick should they decline any further. It sounds harsh, but that's the reality of list management in an era when clubs have only 40 positions to play with, 22 players to play each week, and a requirement to delist a minimum of 3 players every year.
Assuming that you were referring to Torney with your comment about cutting due to age, while still performing, then I guess you have a point. Had they known that Welsh was going to walk, they may have given Torney another year - but there's no chance of them re-drafting him on Nov 24th. Torney is a victim of the Adelaide list's age profile, with too many mediocre players aged 26-29 and too many stars aged 30+. They needed to get rid of him now, lest they lose 15 players in one year (2008 or 2009). Harsh, but I believe they made the right call.
This seems to be a common misconception, with people mistakenly merging the two AFC age-related policies.
What we know of the policies are as follows:
- Players who are not "tier-one" will not be retained past the age of 30.
- Players who ARE aged 30+ (and presumably by definition ARE tier-one) are only offered 1-year contracts.
The club has never stated anything about not offering players who are "approaching 30" single year contracts, unless they have valid reasons for doing so. Biglands was signed to a 2-year contract in September 2006, days after his 29th birthday. The only thing saving Michael "The Young One" Doughty from the sack this year was the fact that he's on a 2-year contract (ends 2008) which will see him past his 29th birthday.
The players who are only given 1-year contracts, before their 30th birthdays, all have good reasons why this should be the case.
In the case of Scott Welsh (2006), it was because of his history with injuries (having played only 6 games in 2006). In 2007, it remains injuries, with the added factor of off-field indiscretions weighing against him.
In other cases, it's because their on-field performances have been borderline. They know that they will be retained while they continue to perform, but that the club have the ability to give them the flick should they decline any further. It sounds harsh, but that's the reality of list management in an era when clubs have only 40 positions to play with, 22 players to play each week, and a requirement to delist a minimum of 3 players every year.
Assuming that you were referring to Torney with your comment about cutting due to age, while still performing, then I guess you have a point. Had they known that Welsh was going to walk, they may have given Torney another year - but there's no chance of them re-drafting him on Nov 24th. Torney is a victim of the Adelaide list's age profile, with too many mediocre players aged 26-29 and too many stars aged 30+. They needed to get rid of him now, lest they lose 15 players in one year (2008 or 2009). Harsh, but I believe they made the right call.
rAdelaideCrows
Draftee
Re: Welsh gone
Welsh was a great player for our club and someone who stood up in a few games last year and pretty much won them for us. (Kangaroos Rd 12) But....Was he going to be our next premiership forward line star. I doubt it.
Having said that who is going to step up and kick the 40-50 goal season haul which Welsh would have normally filled???
Welsh was a great player for our club and someone who stood up in a few games last year and pretty much won them for us. (Kangaroos Rd 12) But....Was he going to be our next premiership forward line star. I doubt it.
Having said that who is going to step up and kick the 40-50 goal season haul which Welsh would have normally filled???