Prediction Second tier football

fargothegreat

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What happens in 2021 and beyond?

The ideal scenario is for a national reserves league, but I don't think the money is there for that now and I don't think the SANFL and WAFL will let it happen.

The more likely scenario is to have three second tier leagues; the VFL, WAFL and SANFL, and the four northern teams field teams in the VFL either in pairs or individually. The other option is that the AFL creates a seperate reserves comp for AFL teams, let's call it the Eastern Football League, and the VFL moves back to just standalone teams.

Thoughts?
 

Mr north man

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What happens in 2021 and beyond?

The ideal scenario is for a national reserves league, but I don't think the money is there for that now and I don't think the SANFL and WAFL will let it happen.

The more likely scenario is to have three second tier leagues; the VFL, WAFL and SANFL, and the four northern teams field teams in the VFL either in pairs or individually. The other option is that the AFL creates a seperate reserves comp for AFL teams, let's call it the Eastern Football League, and the VFL moves back to just standalone teams.

Thoughts?
All 18 clubs to have reserves with list of 55 to play in AFL all other comps to be amateur with outside top quality clubs from local leagues to join wafl sanfl vfl
 

Rickee

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As a member of a stand alone VFL team having 4 more AFL sides in the competition, with the added financial burden of travelling interstate 1-4 times a year, is absolutely untenable for us.

There is more likleyhood of the stand alone teams breaking away from the VFL than anything else at this stage, especially if the AFL reserves sides do not compete in 2020 as expected. The stand alones are communicating with each oher constantly, and I half expect them to quit the VFL at some point during the season.
 

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Capital Magpie

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Given the likelihood of AFL salary cap cuts impacting fewer coaches impacting proportionately fewer players, I don't see how AFL clubs will possibly be able to continue to field second tier teams in any shape or form.

More likely if playing lists are cut to 35, that the whole playing list will be expected to be available to play senior football at some stage during the compacted 2020 season, and this will likely continue into the 2021 season as well.
 

fargothegreat

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All 18 clubs to have reserves with list of 55 to play in AFL all other comps to be amateur with outside top quality clubs from local leagues to join wafl sanfl vfl
This would the ideal scenario, but I think the AFL is going to go the other way with smaller lists to cut costs.
 

fargothegreat

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As a member of a stand alone VFL team having 4 more AFL sides in the competition, with the added financial burden of travelling interstate 1-4 times a year, is absolutely untenable for us.

There is more likleyhood of the stand alone teams breaking away from the VFL than anything else at this stage, especially if the AFL reserves sides do not compete in 2020 as expected. The stand alones are communicating with each oher constantly, and I half expect them to quit the VFL at some point during the season.
Remains to be seen what support, if any the AFL will give the VFL clubs. I think they should just create a new league for the Eastern AFL clubs' reserves, and leave the VFL to become the third tier.
 

Rickee

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Remains to be seen what support, if any the AFL will give the VFL clubs. I think they should just create a new league for the Eastern AFL clubs' reserves, and leave the VFL to become the third tier.
I don't see AFL Victoria giving the stand alone clubs any support at all, given their past history. I feel like it's more and more likely that the remaining clubs, plus Sandringham, Box Hill and Casey, will either form a stand alone state league, join suburban competitions or just outright fold like Preston has done.
 

Supercoach Bargain

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Depends on draft age level changes.

if it is raised, the clubs will fund state league clubs directly or indirectly.

The stand alone club or clearance fees appear to be possible.

my guess is there will be two kinds of state league club, the flag oriented and the “footy factory” oriented.
 

Freomaniac

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Hasn't the VFL been shut down for 2020?

SANFL are thinking of starting the season in may
 
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WillHayward

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The current draft set up is diabolical.

Obviously wafl and SANFL are fine as is.

But if Victoria wants to keep the 10 clubs then the VFL should be scrapped.

Id like to see a Victorian under 19s comp with the 10 AFL clubs. 18 games home and away. Plus finals with a final 4 or 5.

Then if you are a good player you can have a serious crack in the under 19 comp AFTER you have finished school.

If you get to 20 and haven't been drafted you can then go and play at your local club in a local league.

We will still get the occasional smokey drafted out of local Victorian clubs at 21 and 22 which will be great for the game, the fans and the local clubs.

The current under 18 comp is a joke. Nobody gives a crap about it. And why put that pressure on the kids to be drafted at the same time when they are doing VCE?

I think AFL club aligned under 19s in Victoria would be good fun and people would watch. Especially when the senior side plays interstate .

We already have great grounds for this comp.
 
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WillHayward

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The current draft set up is diabolical.

Obviously wafl and SANFL are fine as is.

But if Victoria wants to keep the 10 clubs then the VFL should be scrapped.

Id like to see a Victorian under 19s comp with 10 clubs. 18 games home and away. Plus finals with a final 4 or 5.

Then if you a good young player you can have a serious crack in the under 19 comp AFTER you have finished school.
Having the draft year in the middle of VCE is ridiculous.

If you get to 20 and haven't been drafted you can then go and play at your local club in a local league.

We will still get the occasional smokey drafted out of local Victorian clubs at 21 and 22 which will be great for the game, the fans and the local clubs.
 

footyfan78

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As a member of a stand alone VFL team having 4 more AFL sides in the competition, with the added financial burden of travelling interstate 1-4 times a year, is absolutely untenable for us.

There is more likleyhood of the stand alone teams breaking away from the VFL than anything else at this stage, especially if the AFL reserves sides do not compete in 2020 as expected. The stand alones are communicating with each oher constantly, and I half expect them to quit the VFL at some point during the season.
There is nowhere for them to go... There is virtually Port Melbourne, Williamstown and Sandringham I see as traditional VFA clubs that should value their long history so much they try to remain as clubs in some form. But given Prahran, Preston, Danenong and so many of the old VFA clubs are gone whether fully or virtually there really is no VFA to go back to...

I think their future has to be looked at more towards becoming like a TAC club in some form. Whether we have an under 21 league of some form where they join with those TAC clubs or something of that nature.
A new form of feeder league looks like what will happen in some form if a full AFL reserves comp does not happen.
 
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footyfan78

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I posted this in another thread the other day but the thread itself was not totally about the level down from AFL.

Re-post here now...

Some initial thoughts to how we even go forward with the comps just below AFL in Victoria.

I only see two ways forward. Either we go the full course to an AFL reserves league which means no list cuts backs, but salary cap cut backs. So the players overall get less but no drop in how many players each club have.

The second option of cutting back lists to 35 eventually means a reserves league is not possible but also the AFL clubs having a seconds team is no longer do-able in present leagues they play in. If we go this second option it means to me in Victoria we probably have to start a new feeder league here.
The way I see it is the under 18 TAC clubs get streamlined into a feeder league here where each club in it has an under 18 team and senior team.
Any AFL players from Victoria that not in their senior AFL team play with their original TAC club for it's open age team.

Vic Nab League would be limited to 12 clubs to make sure the standard of senior teams is good enough quality for AFL players not in senior team still have decent standard footy to play in.

Such a league could be as such:

Port Melbourne (traditional VFA club and gets it's own under 18 TAC side going forward)
Williamstown (traditional VFA club and takes over Western Jets in under 18 TAC as Williamstown Seagulls)
Sandringham (tradtional VFA club and re-names Sandringham TAC side as Sandringham Zebras)
Frankston Dolphins (takes over Dandenong Stingrays in under 18 TAC)
Eastern Ranges (only had a TAC under 18 but now gets a senior side too)
Geelong Falcons (as above)
Northern Knighrts (as above)
Calder Cannons (as above)
Gippsland Power
Murray Bushrangers
Bendigo Pioneers
Greater Western Rebels

I prefer to have a full AFL reserve comp and stick to current AFL list sizes and just reduce the salary cup to what clubs can afford.
 

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Bunk Moreland

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In Vic I think we’ll see more alignments as money is a factor and it’s cheaper than fielding your own VFL team.

Wouldn’t be surprised to see Port, Williamstown, Coburg, Franga and Werribee in alignments in 2021, with five of the AFL clubs getting rid of their own VFL teams.
 

WillHayward

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A Clarkson made some bloody good points on this topic during the week.

People will name a handful of names like Rozee and Walsh and Smith but the clear reality is that about 90 to 95% of first year draftees are in no way ready for the AFL system in their first two years at a club

Clarkson also made the point that pay rates for the 18-21 year old player in the AFL is way way out of proportion to their output. Most of them are just developing and being coached. Most have no real impact on game day.

I don't know exactly how much players like Rankine, Lukoscius and Max King are getting paid but two of them haven't played a single game yet and I'm betting they are being paid some serious coin. Aiden Bonar would definitely be on big coin.

A Victorian under 19s comp with the ten AFL clubs has real merit for me.

Then we keep senior lists at 35 players.

Maybe a mid season top up draft so U can replace players on the long term injury list and keep the 35 players squad healthy.

The VFL in its current format is a joke and the TAC under 18 comp is a joke with most of the gun players now playing for their private schools and kids forced to juggle VCE and trying to be drafted. It's not good for the kids. It's not good for the clubs because they get 5 or 6 kids in each year when most of them simply aren't ready until they are 20 or 21. It's also no good for the grass roots. There is no community vibe.
No excitement about watching some young guns come through.

I think a Victorian/AFL under 19s comp would bring that.

It would also help the northern sides because they would get a good look at 18 and 19yo kids running around in the Victorian comp for 12 months and still have access to their own local kids via local zones.

On top of all that it means you get a game every Saturday at 2pm with a side in Ur AFL club colours running around at much loved venues like Moorabbin, Whitten Oval, Punt Road and a few other gems of grounds. Fans would love that.
 
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Bunk Moreland

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A Clarkson made some bloody good points on this topic during the week.

People will name a handful of names like Rozee and Walsh and Smith but the clear reality is that about 90 to 95% of first year draftees are in no way ready for the AFL system in their first two years at a club

Clarkson also made the point that pay rates for the 18-21 year old player in the AFL is way way out of proportion to their output. Most of them are just developing and being coached. Most have no real impact on game day.

I don't know exactly how much players like Rankine, Lukoscius and Max King are getting paid but two of them haven't played a single game yet and I'm betting they are being paid some serious coin.

A Victorian under 19s comp with the ten AFL clubs has real merit for me.

Then we keep senior lists at 35 players.

Maybe a mid season top up draft so U can replace players on the long term injury list and keep the 35 players squad healthy.

The VFL in its current format is a joke and the TAC under 18 comp is a joke with most of the gun players now playing for their private schools and kids forced to juggle VCE and trying to be drafted. It's not good for the kids. It's not good for the clubs because they get 5 or 6 kids in each year when most of them simply aren't ready until they are 20 or 21. It's also no good for the grass roots. There is no community vibe.
No excitement about watching some young guns come through.

I think a Victorian/AFL under 19s comp would bring that.

It would also help the northern sides because they would get a good look at 18 and 19yo kids running around in the Victorian comp for 12 months and still have access to their own local kids via local zones.

On top of all that it means you get a game every Saturday at 2pm with a side in Ur AFL club colours running around at much loved venues like Moorabbin, Whitten Oval, Punt Road and a few other gems of grounds. Fans would love that.
Last thing we need is another league.

Solution is simple - just raise the draft age by one or two years. It has a huge range of benefits. Kids can study and work which can give them some actual maturity and a bit of life experience beyond school. It also allows the draft to actually work and makes identifying players so much easier given they’re developed further. So when a club finishes last and brings in the no 1 pick, it’s somebody who can actually make a difference. And it improves the quality of the league as a whole as it’s not also a development league for 18yo kids who aren’t ready but are there on “potential”.

Don’t need another league, they can play in the state leagues.
 

WillHayward

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Last thing we need is another league.

Solution is simple - just raise the draft age by one or two years. It has a huge range of benefits. Kids can study and work which can give them some actual maturity and a bit of life experience beyond school. It also allows the draft to actually work and makes identifying players so much easier given they’re developed further. So when a club finishes last and brings in the no 1 pick, it’s somebody who can actually make a difference. And it improves the quality of the league as a whole as it’s not also a development league for 18yo kids who aren’t ready but are there on “potential”.

Don’t need another league, they can play in the state leagues.
Good calls . Definitely agree.

I'm just saying axe two leagues and then add one. So net loss of a league.

Id give both the VFL and the TAC cup the ass.

You will still get some bloke who is 21 and dominates the ammos or the EFL or whatever and gets drafted.

Also means if Ur 21 and still have ambitions to be drafted U can go and play SANFL or wafl.

The majority of draftees will come from the Victorian under 19 comp.

Also with lists of 35 we only need 3 rounds of the draft.

The reality is 90% of players picked after pick 50 in the draft won't make it.
 
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NorthernBastard

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You need a 2nd tier comp, whether it's a state league or AFL reserves, in all states.

If the WA/SA clubs have their back up players playing WAFL/SANFL and the back up players in Vic are playing A grade Ammos there is a pretty big advantage to those SA/WA clubs.

I don't have the answer, but I know it's not an u19/u21 comp or you're back playing local footy...

Also, look at the succesful Victorian AFL clubs of recent years - most have also tasted VFL success in the lead up. You need your back up players playing competitive footy.
 

Cotchins Hair Piece

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Last thing we need is another league.

Solution is simple - just raise the draft age by one or two years. It has a huge range of benefits. Kids can study and work which can give them some actual maturity and a bit of life experience beyond school. It also allows the draft to actually work and makes identifying players so much easier given they’re developed further. So when a club finishes last and brings in the no 1 pick, it’s somebody who can actually make a difference. And it improves the quality of the league as a whole as it’s not also a development league for 18yo kids who aren’t ready but are there on “potential”.

Don’t need another league, they can play in the state leagues.
Good post. One of my biggest gripes with the AFL over the past decade or so is that it’s become a development league. This will go far to stopping that.
 

Bunk Moreland

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Good post. One of my biggest gripes with the AFL over the past decade or so is that it’s become a development league. This will go far to stopping that.
I don’t know what the rationale is for it not at least being reviewed. There’s clearly issues with it. I’m sure 18 was fine back in the day. Hell you had 17yos debuting at league level, and even the odd player younger than that.

Today’s league players are full-time professional super-athletes. Kids aren’t ready to compete with them. Not sure what they’re afraid of, maybe losing them to other sports.

Not to mention they try to build the draft up as something meaningful, when by and large it’s a bunch of unknown kids who won’t be ready for a couple of years. ****, make it 20yos who have been smashing the VFL or WAFL for a couple of years, THAT would be interesting. And actually beneficial to those who have high picks.

And these huge financial problems - how much money is spent on analysis and recruiting? Be a lot cheaper and easier when they’re older and you’re not having to employ 10 blokes and their crystal balls to tell you what they’ll be like in five years.
 

WillHayward

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You need a 2nd tier comp, whether it's a state league or AFL reserves, in all states.

If the WA/SA clubs have their back up players playing WAFL/SANFL and the back up players in Vic are playing A grade Ammos there is a pretty big advantage to those SA/WA clubs.

I don't have the answer, but I know it's not an u19/u21 comp or you're back playing local footy...

Also, look at the succesful Victorian AFL clubs of recent years - most have also tasted VFL success in the lead up. You need your back up players playing competitive footy.
In that case I'd give the TAC cup the ass completely and up the draft age to 20.

Th current system has five blokes per list who will never be good enough and were picked on spec as 17year olds.

The SANFL and wafl exist independently because they only have two AFL teams.

Nobody gives a shit about the VFL in its current format.
What is it? Some kind of Frankenstein monster.
 

Freomaniac

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The current draft set up is diabolical.

Obviously wafl and SANFL are fine as is.

But if Victoria wants to keep the 10 clubs then the VFL should be scrapped.

Id like to see a Victorian under 19s comp with the 10 AFL clubs. 18 games home and away. Plus finals with a final 4 or 5.

Then if you are a good player you can have a serious crack in the under 19 comp AFTER you have finished school.

If you get to 20 and haven't been drafted you can then go and play at your local club in a local league.

We will still get the occasional smokey drafted out of local Victorian clubs at 21 and 22 which will be great for the game, the fans and the local clubs.

The current under 18 comp is a joke. Nobody gives a crap about it. And why put that pressure on the kids to be drafted at the same time when they are doing VCE?

I think AFL club aligned under 19s in Victoria would be good fun and people would watch. Especially when the senior side plays interstate .

We already have great grounds for this comp.

well at least you think the SANFL and WAFL is settled
 

greatwhiteshark

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The AFL need a system where they stop drafting players who are not ready to play. The AFL is not a development league,it is simply supposed to be the best of the best.
Even if the AFL had a reserves comp the reality is that it Would be third tier footy, full of kids not ready and even if you call it second tier the sides Would not get near the top WAFL and SANFL sides.
AFL reserves is not going to happen for a couple of reasons, 1) The cost is simply way to high to double your clubs costs to fly around the country. 2) The cost already to have kids on your list that the majority of them are not good enough to play senior WAFL or SANFL footy now. This is a cost they are thinking of removing which is the right thing to do.

The WAFL and SANFL have it right and it works for their AFL clubs, their players play seriously high std footy against men week in week out and get the best possible grounding.
The VFL I don’t know much about but with 10 AFL clubs in the comp it really is just a Colts comp.

As for the draft age I believe the age should not matter but what should happen is that you cannot be drafted until you have player 25 games of League football in the State leagues.
This way you actually know what you are drafting, the players had played against men for two seasons minimum and more than likely will be ready to go if and when they are called upon by an AFL club.
No one should be turning up to watch an AFL game to watch junior sport. Send the kids to the state leagues to be developed and fund those state leagues to do it.
 

nick1408

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The AFL need a system where they stop drafting players who are not ready to play. The AFL is not a development league,it is simply supposed to be the best of the best.
A thought off the top of my head - would a system where each round has an age limit work? i.e. first round picks can draft a player 18 and up, second round 19 and up, third round 20 and up (and so on) work? This would allow the 18 year olds good enough (Walsh, etc) to be drafted and the speculative picks to develop in the state leagues with tangible chances of being drafted at 22 (fifth round).
 

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