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Rickee

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May 23, 2016
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My prediction is no comp in 2020.

2021 will see the current league contract in size as a result of more VFL/AFL club alignments, because that’s a cost saver for AFL clubs.

Wouldn’t be surprised to see AFL clubs looking to ditch their reserves team and align with Port, Frankston, Coburg, Willy, Werribee.

St Kilda, Melbourne and Hawthorn already have this arrangement. God knows what Carlton is thinking, they’ll need an alignment more than ever in 2021.

Expect a 10-12 club comp in 2021.
The VFL clubs simply won't do alignments any more, the AFL clubs want too much control and usually demand a change of colours/nickname/ground to fit their brand. Port and Willi at least are far too proud of their own history to shack up with an AFL club again, and Frankston can't constitutionally.
 

footyfan1978

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Makes sense however the catchment area is far too big from Frankston which would have the whole of the peninsula all across the South East until Box Hill, the area just based on population needs another team
They already got Gippsland Power for part of that, If you wanted Box Hill Mustangs to takeover Eastern Ranges and Oakleigh Chargers region to become Port Melbourne Borough's not sure any need for another club to run that pathway.

Frankston Dolphins
Gippsland Power
Port Melbourne Borough
Sandringham Zebras
Eastern Ranges or call it Box Hill Mustangs should be enough pathway clubs to AFL to East and South of Melbourne for such a revamped league
 

Bunk Moreland

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Frankston have never and will never align with anyone it is in the constitution

i would say 15-16 teams in 2021, look at the original model from last year plus Tasmania rejoins. Not sure what is happening with Carlton. But you never know with AFL.
The VFL clubs simply won't do alignments any more, the AFL clubs want too much control and usually demand a change of colours/nickname/ground to fit their brand. Port and Willi at least are far too proud of their own history to shack up with an AFL club again, and Frankston can't constitutionally.
Fair point re Frankston, though I certainly wouldn't say never when there are far more powerful forces at play than a VFL club constitution. The AFL get what they want when they want it.

As for alignments, it wasn't always this way. Port had agreements with Sydney, Willy with Collingwood that didn't see any of their identity change. What we have seen with more recent alignments (Carlton / Preston, Hawthorn / Box Hill, Melbourne / Springvale etc) is a reflection of the balance of power. AFL clubs didn't need affiliates, really. Cash kept coming in and they could set up their own reserves and most did. On the other hand, the financial situation for many VFL clubs was affiliate or die completely.

That may shift slightly now. There's five VFL clubs who've gone it alone and survived. AFL clubs need to slash costs and may have very few actual "reserves" players if lists are cut - making reserves very expensive due to top-ups. The cuts at AFL level are real - they're staring down the barrel of up to 40% cut in football ops. That's huge.

It could - in fact it should - shift the negotiation back a little. We may be headed for a situation where everybody needs everybody, which would lead to concessions that might include name, jumper, coach, etc.
 

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Rickee

Team Captain
May 23, 2016
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AFL Club
St Kilda
Other Teams
Port Melbourne; Redan
Fair point re Frankston, though I certainly wouldn't say never when there are far more powerful forces at play than a VFL club constitution. The AFL get what they want when they want it.

As for alignments, it wasn't always this way. Port had agreements with Sydney, Willy with Collingwood that didn't see any of their identity change. What we have seen with more recent alignments (Carlton / Preston, Hawthorn / Box Hill, Melbourne / Springvale etc) is a reflection of the balance of power. AFL clubs didn't need affiliates, really. Cash kept coming in and they could set up their own reserves and most did. On the other hand, the financial situation for many VFL clubs was affiliate or die completely.

That may shift slightly now. There's five VFL clubs who've gone it alone and survived. AFL clubs need to slash costs and may have very few actual "reserves" players if lists are cut - making reserves very expensive due to top-ups. The cuts at AFL level are real - they're staring down the barrel of up to 40% cut in football ops. That's huge.

It could - in fact it should - shift the negotiation back a little. We may be headed for a situation where everybody needs everybody, which would lead to concessions that might include name, jumper, coach, etc.
You are right, the AFL used to deliberately make the VFL affiliation fee stupidly expensive to encourage clubs to affiliate. And clubs initially were happy to do so as it was a means of survival. Speaking for Port, however, this changed when North Melbourne started to expect to be given more and more say in where certain players were played and when, game plans, staff appointments, etc. They expected to be in charge and underestimated how much Port values it's independence as a club. They also supposedly told us we would need to change our jumper and nickname to match theirs. We told them no and tore up the agreement. Given what has happened since with Box Hill, Northern Blues and Casey rebranding and Sandringham going that way as well, I can't see Port agreeing to it.

If the AFL do try to force the stand alone clubs to fit into an alignment arrangement, they will probably just quit en masse. The relationship between the clubs has grown substantially in recent years, and I am certain they will have each others backs when it comes to demands from the AFL.
 

footyfan1978

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You are right, the AFL used to deliberately make the VFL affiliation fee stupidly expensive to encourage clubs to affiliate. And clubs initially were happy to do so as it was a means of survival. Speaking for Port, however, this changed when North Melbourne started to expect to be given more and more say in where certain players were played and when, game plans, staff appointments, etc. They expected to be in charge and underestimated how much Port values it's independence as a club. They also supposedly told us we would need to change our jumper and nickname to match theirs. We told them no and tore up the agreement. Given what has happened since with Box Hill, Northern Blues and Casey rebranding and Sandringham going that way as well, I can't see Port agreeing to it.

If the AFL do try to force the stand alone clubs to fit into an alignment arrangement, they will probably just quit en masse. The relationship between the clubs has grown substantially in recent years, and I am certain they will have each others backs when it comes to demands from the AFL.
Very well said. My understanding with Sandringham is they were untangling themselves from St.Kilda in next 12 months anyway.
Like Port Melbourne becoming truly Port Melbourne Borough again, Sandringham Zebras were just about back to their own identity soon. Assuming they financially get through 2020 to arrive for 2021 season.
 
Last edited:

hansie

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Frankston have never and will never align with anyone it is in the constitution

i would say 15-16 teams in 2021, look at the original model from last year plus Tasmania rejoins. Not sure what is happening with Carlton. But you never know with AFL.
I am sure franganistan was at one stage aligned with st Kilda iirc


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Walshawk

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Mar 24, 2017
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The old VFA clubs would be gone within a season or two if they split from the AFL reserves. A comp with just the old VFA clubs would have no coverage or profile. Players would leave for more money at big suburban clubs or more exposure as AFL reserves top ups. Furthermore, the old VFA clubs lack the juniors structure to compete at suburban level. Balwyn was the only suburban club to succeed without juniors.
In other words, even great clubs like Port and Willi will do whatever the AFL says.
 

Bunk Moreland

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The old VFA clubs would be gone within a season or two if they split from the AFL reserves. A comp with just the old VFA clubs would have no coverage or profile. Players would leave for more money at big suburban clubs or more exposure as AFL reserves top ups. Furthermore, the old VFA clubs lack the juniors structure to compete at suburban level. Balwyn was the only suburban club to succeed without juniors.
In other words, even great clubs like Port and Willi will do whatever the AFL says.
There may be an exception or two but generally VFA clubs would compete fine at suburban level. It’s a considerable step down in terms of finances. The standalone salary cap this year was $380k, top suburban leagues are $220k max - and will now drop considerably. Not to mention the VFL clubs also have full time employees and usually at least one FT coach.

Many of the clubs have revenue streams through pubs or events centres.

Port would be a powerhouse at local level, their biggest issue would be finding a comp that would take them.
 

glengowan

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Oct 8, 2004
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There may be an exception or two but generally VFA clubs would compete fine at suburban level. It’s a considerable step down in terms of finances. The standalone salary cap this year was $380k, top suburban leagues are $220k max - and will now drop considerably. Not to mention the VFL clubs also have full time employees and usually at least one FT coach.

Many of the clubs have revenue streams through pubs or events centres.

Port would be a powerhouse at local level, their biggest issue would be finding a comp that would take them.
I hear the SANFL is looking for a new Port.
 

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Walshawk

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There may be an exception or two but generally VFA clubs would compete fine at suburban level. It’s a considerable step down in terms of finances. The standalone salary cap this year was $380k, top suburban leagues are $220k max - and will now drop considerably. Not to mention the VFL clubs also have full time employees and usually at least one FT coach.

Many of the clubs have revenue streams through pubs or events centres.

Port would be a powerhouse at local level, their biggest issue would be finding a comp that would take them.
Port would be a powerhouse for a year or two, but once they lose the exposure that being part of the VFL affords, they will find it harder to attract players or sponsors compared to other suburban clubs that have hundreds of juniors and their families. Sponsors at suburban level are usually local businesses involved in the club. That would dry up pretty quickly. It may work, but they and other clubs transition from state level to suburban footy will need committees 100% committed to the next 5, 10, 20+ years as a community suburban club. It takes a lot of work to build up juniors, etc.
 

Bunk Moreland

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Port would be a powerhouse for a year or two, but once they lose the exposure that being part of the VFL affords, they will find it harder to attract players or sponsors compared to other suburban clubs that have hundreds of juniors and their families. Sponsors at suburban level are usually local businesses involved in the club. That would dry up pretty quickly. It may work, but they and other clubs transition from state level to suburban footy will need committees 100% committed to the next 5, 10, 20+ years as a community suburban club. It takes a lot of work to build up juniors, etc.
That stuff would be good, but they own a pub and a busy event centre. They’d be fine at local level.
 

ItsAllAboutMe

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Port would be a powerhouse for a year or two, but once they lose the exposure that being part of the VFL affords, they will find it harder to attract players or sponsors compared to other suburban clubs that have hundreds of juniors and their families. Sponsors at suburban level are usually local businesses involved in the club. That would dry up pretty quickly. It may work, but they and other clubs transition from state level to suburban footy will need committees 100% committed to the next 5, 10, 20+ years as a community suburban club. It takes a lot of work to build up juniors, etc.
The hard thing for Port would be what league do they compete in? Port Colts recently moved back to the SFNL and were gearing up with a star stacked team to dominate this year based on being able to offer some handy recruits jobs working on the tunnel. VAFA would be an option, but without a school pipeline they would struggle to reach the top tier and i doubt VAFA would let them start in Premier Division, not sure if there is a school that they could align with to get feeder kids. Willy & Werribee natural home is the WRFL, Coburg would either merge with West Coburg or go it alone in EDFL, Preston might be able to start up again in the Northern League but Port are a little lost location wise.
 

Bunk Moreland

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The hard thing for Port would be what league do they compete in? Port Colts recently moved back to the SFNL and were gearing up with a star stacked team to dominate this year based on being able to offer some handy recruits jobs working on the tunnel. VAFA would be an option, but without a school pipeline they would struggle to reach the top tier and i doubt VAFA would let them start in Premier Division, not sure if there is a school that they could align with to get feeder kids. Willy & Werribee natural home is the WRFL, Coburg would either merge with West Coburg or go it alone in EDFL, Preston might be able to start up again in the Northern League but Port are a little lost location wise.
Port could go south, east or west. The problem for all these clubs would be that it’s usually a vote of the league’s clubs as to whether they’re admitted. Turkeys voting for xmas etc.
 

Walshawk

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Mar 24, 2017
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The hard thing for Port would be what league do they compete in? Port Colts recently moved back to the SFNL and were gearing up with a star stacked team to dominate this year based on being able to offer some handy recruits jobs working on the tunnel. VAFA would be an option, but without a school pipeline they would struggle to reach the top tier and i doubt VAFA would let them start in Premier Division, not sure if there is a school that they could align with to get feeder kids. Willy & Werribee natural home is the WRFL, Coburg would either merge with West Coburg or go it alone in EDFL, Preston might be able to start up again in the Northern League but Port are a little lost location wise.
VAFA means no pay for players and no beer at games. Not an option for Port. Port and Will are ancient rivals and need to keep playing each other. How about a premier league of the best clubs in the WRFL and and EDFL containing Port, Willie, Werribee, Coburg and possibly Preston, plus the five next strongest clubs.
 

the Ziebull

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Nov 14, 2010
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Keen to see how the scratch matches will work this year for the players not picked each week

With 10 vic teams it’s almost the new VFL going forward taking shape early but the nuance being that it will be 16 a side teams
 

footyfan1978

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Keen to see how the scratch matches will work this year for the players not picked each week

With 10 vic teams it’s almost the new VFL going forward taking shape early but the nuance being that it will be 16 a side teams
No, it will be whatever both clubs can cobble together for a scratch match. If some club only has 14 fit players, the scratch match will likely be 14 a side.
14 a side, 15 a side, 16 a side, 17 a side or 18. It will just be whatever they can do from week to week, Im sure they will come up with creative ideas so the players themselves can best simulate a normal football match. It is all they can do in present circumstances.
 

MrChow

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Jun 24, 2015
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Pretty VFL dominated thread but here goes...

In terms of equity an AFL reserves is ideal. The VFL is much stronger thanThe otherstate leagues, and VFL teams are able to play AFL game plans against AFL game plans more often at a higher intensity so the jump to senior AFL is less. So for fairness an AFL reserves should be sought after.

Lists of 55 would be fine, with extra players poached from State leagues if Top ups are required, and/or an unlimited bench in B grade.

In terms of $$ it is possible

- If the AFL and clubs set a culture of past stars playing in the B grade to help develop players, there is TV money Fox/7 in these games. The almost doubling in content (With arguably more viewing than other sports), and only 2 hours extra of wages for camera crew (if double headers are played) is feasible.

- reducing players salaries by putting it on the clubs is feasible, and the only way around the players association. Add list numbers, maintain salary cap. It will take a few years to transition.

in terms of Port Adelaide - there is a strong following for the magpies, and them playing in the SANFL - but the argument for a fair competition and playing in a more competitive AFL reserves, and experience travelling which benefits the A grade team will always trump.

Port also wants to maintain its community connection as it has for many years. There is no reason that clubs couldn’t field a third team in the State leagues. Made up of non AFL listed players, and the occasional AFL listed player (when there are no injuries). Financially they would just have to manage like the other VFL/SANFL and WAFL clubs...?

The choice of a third team, could be up to each AFL club and whether they want this or not.
 

footyfan1978

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Pretty VFL dominated thread but here goes...

In terms of equity an AFL reserves is ideal. The VFL is much stronger thanThe otherstate leagues, and VFL teams are able to play AFL game plans against AFL game plans more often at a higher intensity so the jump to senior AFL is less. So for fairness an AFL reserves should be sought after.

Lists of 55 would be fine, with extra players poached from State leagues if Top ups are required, and/or an unlimited bench in B grade.

In terms of $$ it is possible

- If the AFL and clubs set a culture of past stars playing in the B grade to help develop players, there is TV money Fox/7 in these games. The almost doubling in content (With arguably more viewing than other sports), and only 2 hours extra of wages for camera crew (if double headers are played) is feasible.

- reducing players salaries by putting it on the clubs is feasible, and the only way around the players association. Add list numbers, maintain salary cap. It will take a few years to transition.

in terms of Port Adelaide - there is a strong following for the magpies, and them playing in the SANFL - but the argument for a fair competition and playing in a more competitive AFL reserves, and experience travelling which benefits the A grade team will always trump.

Port also wants to maintain its community connection as it has for many years. There is no reason that clubs couldn’t field a third team in the State leagues. Made up of non AFL listed players, and the occasional AFL listed player (when there are no injuries). Financially they would just have to manage like the other VFL/SANFL and WAFL clubs...?

The choice of a third team, could be up to each AFL club and whether they want this or not.

Kudos for at least making an attempt to come up with something. Lots here do not seem capable of such effort.
But I do ask if 18 AFL clubs go with lists of 55 that is a total of 990 players between the AFL seniors and reserve grade comps, what does that leave left for clubs like Port Melbourne, Norwood, East Fremantle. Williamstown, Sturt, West Perth etc etc. ? Will they just wither away trying to put together the remaining mature bodies to cobble together something for their fans.? If you absorb all those players for one league you clearly got to steal from suburban leagues and weaken them just to even have what you refer as a state league below that. That means State leagues weakened and suburban leagues too...

and what about Tasmania too?
Have you considered Eagles Trevor Nesbitt has said Eagles not interested in having a second team to have to use expenses on around the nation?

Lots of things to consider of alternative models than just one model and how each model effects all of footy community.
What other models to you have as alternatives to just one?

I'm glad to hear these thoughts too.
 

Great8

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The VFL is much stronger thanThe otherstate leagues
Don’t agree with this at all. Cant speak for the WAFL but most SANFL sides would do well in the VFL and Glenelg last year would have easily made the top 4 IMO
 

Walshawk

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Don’t agree with this at all. Cant speak for the WAFL but most SANFL sides would do well in the VFL and Glenelg last year would have easily made the top 4 IMO
Football here is nothing like SA. The VFL is essentially a development league already. Most players are 19 - 22. There are hundreds of ‘state level’ players spread around suburban and country clubs. For example, at Box Hill there is a large turnover - most players leave by 22/23 to get more cash and a better career at a suburban club. A strong club like Vermont in the EFL also enables players to play in front of more fans than Coburg or Frankston for example.
 

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