Second tier football

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the Ziebull

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ItsAllAboutMe

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Is basically what most here have wanted to happen in Vic, makes complete sense from a development and financial point of view.



Pathways plan: Ex-president says VFL and NAB League should merge to form region hubs
Victoria’s second-tier of football could be in for a massive shake-up. A once shelved plan to merge two powerhouse competitions is back in the spotlight, with a veteran administrator claiming it would boost Victoria’s footy development and save costs.
Paul Amy, Leader
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May 22, 2020 6:00am
Tommy Wilson on the job for Northern Blues, who would come together with the Northern Knights under Gerry Ryan’s plan.
Tommy Wilson on the job for Northern Blues, who would come together with the Northern Knights under Gerry Ryan’s plan.
MORE IN LEADER
Club president shocked by negativity

Victoria’s second-tier level of football could be in for a shake-up, with calls to merge the VFL and NAB League competitions.
“Now’s the time to do it and make the pathway a lot stronger and eliminate unnecessary costs,’’ former Sandringham president Gerry Ryan declared.
Ryan is urging the AFL to adopt a model similar to the WAFL and SANFL, with under-age teams feeding into the senior ranks.
HAVE YOUR SAY: Do you think the VFL and NAB League should merge? Tell us below
He has been campaigning for more than a decade to bring the VFL and NAB League clubs together as regional hubs.
Ryan had pushed for Sandringham Zebras and under-18 team Sandringham Dragons to operate under one administration, adamant a one-club approach was the best way forward.
AFL Victoria dismissed the idea.
Marlion Pickett breaks a tackle during last year’s VFL Grand Final between Richmond and Williamstown at Ikon Park. Under Ryan’s plan, Williamstown would merge with Western Jets. Picture: Getty
Marlion Pickett breaks a tackle during last year’s VFL Grand Final between Richmond and Williamstown at Ikon Park. Under Ryan’s plan, Williamstown would merge with Western Jets. Picture: Getty
Jacob Townsend celebrates a goal in the final quarter as Richmond powered to the flag. Picture: Michael Klein
Jacob Townsend celebrates a goal in the final quarter as Richmond powered to the flag. Picture: Michael Klein
But Ryan said that with the AFL needing to pull back costs the time was right for “overdue’’ change in Victorian football.
Under his model, Sandringham Zebras would join with Sandringham Dragons, Frankston with Dandenong Stingrays, Port Melbourne with Oakleigh Chargers, Gippsland Power with Casey Demons, Box Hill Hawks with Eastern Ranges, the Northern Blues with Northern Knights, Coburg with Calder Cannons, Williamstown with Western Jets, and Werribee with Geelong Falcons.

Ryan also said senior entities should be created from under-18 clubs Greater Western Victorian Rebels (formerly the North Ballarat Rebels), Bendigo Pioneers and Murray Bushrangers.
Bendigo and North Ballarat had been affiliated with the VFL.
Bendigo had an alignment with Essendon, became a stand-alone club and dropped out at the end of 2014.
North Ballarat had great success, winning the 2008-09-10 premierships, but was booted out of the competition over governance issues in 2017.
Ryan believes senior teams should spring from the Bushrangers and could play out of Wangaratta.
He also has Tasmania slotted for affiliation.
Advocate for change: Gerry Ryan.
Advocate for change: Gerry Ryan.
Under Ryan’s model, each hub would be affiliated with an AFL club, similar to the Next Generation Academy zones, and players would drop back to the VFL when not selected in the AFL.
The AFL clubs would also have the ability to call up players directly from the hubs, encouraging young players to stick to the pathway.
His plan applies for men’s and women’s football in Victoria.
Calder Cannons and Dandenong Stingrays battle in last year’s U18 competition. Picture: Andy Brownbill
Calder Cannons and Dandenong Stingrays battle in last year’s U18 competition. Picture: Andy Brownbill
Jamarra Ugle-Hagan and Joseph Lloyd in the NAB Preliminary Final between Oakleigh and Sandringham last year. Picture: Andy Brownbill
Jamarra Ugle-Hagan and Joseph Lloyd in the NAB Preliminary Final between Oakleigh and Sandringham last year. Picture: Andy Brownbill
Oakleigh and Eastern Rangers stand for the national anthem before the NAB League Grand Final in 2019, 2019. Picture: Andy Brownbill
Oakleigh and Eastern Rangers stand for the national anthem before the NAB League Grand Final in 2019, 2019. Picture: Andy Brownbill
“The more you think about combining them, the more sense it makes,’’ Ryan, a life member of AFL Victoria, said.
“You could do much more better work for football, for aspiring players and local communities and grassroots football by streamlining the administrations and creating a better and more defined pathway to the AFL system.
“You’re going to have a state league that’s more identifiable, more sustainable.
“I think it was the future 10 years ago.
“With the coronavirus pandemic businesses have had to remodel themselves and adapt and change and I think the AFL has to really take the lead here and establish a better model for our state.
“The way it’s operating now – replicating everything from the CEO to the doctors and physios – we could so much more with less.’’
Ryan said he was aware of talk a group of VFL clubs was proposing a similar set-up.
He said advantages of the model included:
LESS administration costs.
THE ability to employ full-time coaches and support staff.
MORE under-18 players feeding into the VFL and in turn the AFL.
GREATER scope to work with local leagues and clubs and councils.
DEVELOPING better linkages with schools.
Meanwhile Hawthorn premiership player Bob Keddie is also advocating changes to the second tier of Victorian football.
His model is similar to Ryan’s but he believes the VFL should essentially be an Under 23 competition, with clubs permitted to field a handful of over-age players.
Keddie recently presented his concept to AFL football operations manager Steve Hocking.
 

footyfan1978

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Keddie idea is closer to what I think should work, IF the EAFL takes place, I'd prefer to see the old VFA clubs run the best under 23 players in Victoria as their role. So it is similar to a merger but it is more removing the AFL club reserves on this side of Australia and that being the genuine second tier here (Eastern AFL) and for those not on AFL lists but still want to be seen by recruiters to still be drafted an under 23 comp makes a lot of sense. If you over 23 the few remaining hopefuls to get picked up still can offer their services to AFL clubs over here as a few top up players for AFL reserve teams. It gives clubs like Port Melbourne, Willy and Frankston still a strong club feel as they might well have a number of players that been with them for up to six seasons. Being the best club each season in such a comp would still mean something as a club.

I do not agree with Gerry Ryan's idea of merging VFA clubs like Port Melbourne. They historically are too important to adjust their identity. In essence they would just take over a region that a present NAB club has. So rather than Port Melbourne and Oakleigh Chargers merge, you just accept the NAB club is taken over and absorbed to be Port Melboune Football Club as an example. Same with Western Jets taken over by Williamstown Seagulls.

But Gerry Ryan is on right path in terms of cutting costs by have more people working for same organisation.

But once again, this is all still dependent on what size AFL lists go with in future.
If AFL lists are dropped to 35 there will be no reserve comps so AFL listed players will need a proper senior team in secondary tier for them to go play with and then under 23 comp no longer makes sense as need full senior open age clubs then.
 
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NorthernBastard

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Aug 15, 2019
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Agree, the best approach here is a combined 10 team VFL with elite U18's and an aligned AFL club. As a top age 18's player you can play up to 4 games in the seniors during the season, plus finals if your club makes it and deems them worthy of selection. The best kids that don't get drafted will hopefully carry on with their senior team playing the highest level of footy in the state, where they're competing with other draft hopefuls and AFL players not selected.

This is also with an assumption AFL list sizes will be reduced.
 

Kwality

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THE IMMEDIATE future for the VFL will again be discussed on Friday as the potential of what the competition might look like in 2021 and beyond bubbles away under the surface.


There is a split in the competition between the standalone and affiliated VFL clubs and Collingwood, Essendon, Footscray Bulldogs, Geelong, North Melbourne and Richmond, which field their own reserves sides.

None of those AFL clubs are taking part – despite being invited – in the regular online meetings between the remaining VFL teams, which have worked together on a joint submission on the League's future.

It came about after the AFL's Head of Talent Pathways and State League Competitions, Tristan Salter, requested feedback from all second-tier clubs.

The joint proposal, which is yet to receive an AFL response, was compiled with assumptions made on reduced AFL list sizes and the NAB League going from under-18s to an under-19 competition.

The idea, which has been raised in different forms previously, is to strengthen ties between VFL and NAB League clubs, whereby they would share operations staff rather than work separately.

It draws inspiration from the WAFL and SANFL structures, and would enable VFL teams to foster relationships with footballers from a younger age rather than only once they are overlooked in the draft.
 

kranger

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In good news, the WAFL is returning to play on 1 August 2020.

No Eagles reserves this year. With the 9 WAFL clubs playing each other once, before a 4 team finals series.
 

eth-dog

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Is basically what most here have wanted to happen in Vic, makes complete sense from a development and financial point of view.



Pathways plan: Ex-president says VFL and NAB League should merge to form region hubs
Victoria’s second-tier of football could be in for a massive shake-up. A once shelved plan to merge two powerhouse competitions is back in the spotlight, with a veteran administrator claiming it would boost Victoria’s footy development and save costs.
Paul Amy, Leader
Subscriber only
|
May 22, 2020 6:00am
Tommy Wilson on the job for Northern Blues, who would come together with the Northern Knights under Gerry Ryan’s plan.
Tommy Wilson on the job for Northern Blues, who would come together with the Northern Knights under Gerry Ryan’s plan.
MORE IN LEADER
Club president shocked by negativity

Victoria’s second-tier level of football could be in for a shake-up, with calls to merge the VFL and NAB League competitions.
“Now’s the time to do it and make the pathway a lot stronger and eliminate unnecessary costs,’’ former Sandringham president Gerry Ryan declared.
Ryan is urging the AFL to adopt a model similar to the WAFL and SANFL, with under-age teams feeding into the senior ranks.
HAVE YOUR SAY: Do you think the VFL and NAB League should merge? Tell us below
He has been campaigning for more than a decade to bring the VFL and NAB League clubs together as regional hubs.
Ryan had pushed for Sandringham Zebras and under-18 team Sandringham Dragons to operate under one administration, adamant a one-club approach was the best way forward.
AFL Victoria dismissed the idea.
Marlion Pickett breaks a tackle during last year’s VFL Grand Final between Richmond and Williamstown at Ikon Park. Under Ryan’s plan, Williamstown would merge with Western Jets. Picture: Getty
Marlion Pickett breaks a tackle during last year’s VFL Grand Final between Richmond and Williamstown at Ikon Park. Under Ryan’s plan, Williamstown would merge with Western Jets. Picture: Getty
Jacob Townsend celebrates a goal in the final quarter as Richmond powered to the flag. Picture: Michael Klein
Jacob Townsend celebrates a goal in the final quarter as Richmond powered to the flag. Picture: Michael Klein
But Ryan said that with the AFL needing to pull back costs the time was right for “overdue’’ change in Victorian football.
Under his model, Sandringham Zebras would join with Sandringham Dragons, Frankston with Dandenong Stingrays, Port Melbourne with Oakleigh Chargers, Gippsland Power with Casey Demons, Box Hill Hawks with Eastern Ranges, the Northern Blues with Northern Knights, Coburg with Calder Cannons, Williamstown with Western Jets, and Werribee with Geelong Falcons.

Ryan also said senior entities should be created from under-18 clubs Greater Western Victorian Rebels (formerly the North Ballarat Rebels), Bendigo Pioneers and Murray Bushrangers.
Bendigo and North Ballarat had been affiliated with the VFL.
Bendigo had an alignment with Essendon, became a stand-alone club and dropped out at the end of 2014.
North Ballarat had great success, winning the 2008-09-10 premierships, but was booted out of the competition over governance issues in 2017.
Ryan believes senior teams should spring from the Bushrangers and could play out of Wangaratta.
He also has Tasmania slotted for affiliation.
Advocate for change: Gerry Ryan.
Advocate for change: Gerry Ryan.
Under Ryan’s model, each hub would be affiliated with an AFL club, similar to the Next Generation Academy zones, and players would drop back to the VFL when not selected in the AFL.
The AFL clubs would also have the ability to call up players directly from the hubs, encouraging young players to stick to the pathway.
His plan applies for men’s and women’s football in Victoria.
Calder Cannons and Dandenong Stingrays battle in last year’s U18 competition. Picture: Andy Brownbill
Calder Cannons and Dandenong Stingrays battle in last year’s U18 competition. Picture: Andy Brownbill
Jamarra Ugle-Hagan and Joseph Lloyd in the NAB Preliminary Final between Oakleigh and Sandringham last year. Picture: Andy Brownbill
Jamarra Ugle-Hagan and Joseph Lloyd in the NAB Preliminary Final between Oakleigh and Sandringham last year. Picture: Andy Brownbill
Oakleigh and Eastern Rangers stand for the national anthem before the NAB League Grand Final in 2019, 2019. Picture: Andy Brownbill
Oakleigh and Eastern Rangers stand for the national anthem before the NAB League Grand Final in 2019, 2019. Picture: Andy Brownbill
“The more you think about combining them, the more sense it makes,’’ Ryan, a life member of AFL Victoria, said.
“You could do much more better work for football, for aspiring players and local communities and grassroots football by streamlining the administrations and creating a better and more defined pathway to the AFL system.
“You’re going to have a state league that’s more identifiable, more sustainable.
“I think it was the future 10 years ago.
“With the coronavirus pandemic businesses have had to remodel themselves and adapt and change and I think the AFL has to really take the lead here and establish a better model for our state.
“The way it’s operating now – replicating everything from the CEO to the doctors and physios – we could so much more with less.’’
Ryan said he was aware of talk a group of VFL clubs was proposing a similar set-up.
He said advantages of the model included:
LESS administration costs.
THE ability to employ full-time coaches and support staff.
MORE under-18 players feeding into the VFL and in turn the AFL.
GREATER scope to work with local leagues and clubs and councils.
DEVELOPING better linkages with schools.
Meanwhile Hawthorn premiership player Bob Keddie is also advocating changes to the second tier of Victorian football.
His model is similar to Ryan’s but he believes the VFL should essentially be an Under 23 competition, with clubs permitted to field a handful of over-age players.
Keddie recently presented his concept to AFL football operations manager Steve Hocking.
Should have been this way 20 years ago
 

greatwhiteshark

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Oct 3, 2007
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In good news, the WAFL is returning to play on 1 August 2020.

No Eagles reserves this year. With the 9 WAFL clubs playing each other once, before a 4 team finals series.
Absolutely ridiculous that it is not starting to then, they could be playing next weekend with crowds in my opinion. 2 more months is just Ming boggling, who is setting these rules.
 

Walshawk

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Mar 24, 2017
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1. Only allow 18 years olds to be drafted in the first two rounds. So only the elite get drafted at 18, the rest at 19.
2. Make the NAB league U19. 17yos play with their junior club.
3. Align the NAB league and VFL as above, with nine clubs + Tasmania. Allow the U19s to play VFL if they are good enough (like in WA).
4. Assuming they reduce AFL lists, AFL clubs won’t need a reserves team, so the 10 if clubs align with one of the 10 VFL clubs.

So each VFL side could be made up of half VFL listed players, 5 - 10 AFL listed players, one or two gun 18 yos, and one or two 19 yos. Would be a very strong comp.
 

footyfan1978

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In good news, the WAFL is returning to play on 1 August 2020.

No Eagles reserves this year. With the 9 WAFL clubs playing each other once, before a 4 team finals series.
Wow, that is late start. Was hoping something could be done for earlier in July.
It probably leaves 9 WAFL clubs playing each other once over 9 rounds and possibly a final five over 4 weekends.
13 weeks in total to take to end of October ?
 

Walshawk

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Mar 24, 2017
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Drop the five NEAFL sides back to the QAFL. Add the top three QAFL sides and you have an eight team league almost as strong as the NEAFL but without all the travelling.

NSW is a hard one as the standard is not high enough for AFL listed players. Perhaps a six team league with the four NEAFL clubs plus the ext top two Sydney clubs and hope the standard improves over time to add more teams.
 

Walshawk

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Mar 24, 2017
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Wow, that is late start. Was hoping something could be done for earlier in July.
It probably leaves 9 WAFL clubs playing each other once over 9 rounds and possibly a final five over 4 weekends.
13 weeks in total to take to end of October ?
Would be a two week top 4. Semis 1 v 4 and 2 x 3 then the GF on Oct 10.
 

Bunk Moreland

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If I were the 8 VFL clubs I’d be saying to the AFL give us Preston and one other clubthen we’re 10 clubs, and we’ll be your reserves comp in return for some funding to keep us going. You’ll save a lot by not having to have your own VFL sides or VFL listed players, coaches, admin etc. And you’ll have full control over your senior list sizes as you can give us as few players as you like each week.

In return we keep our names, jumpers and grounds, and we get VFL reserves to play our own overflow of players and focus on developing undrafted kids.

Gives you AFL reserves even if you only have list sizes of 35, and a pathway for undrafted kids.
 

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eth-dog

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If I were the 8 VFL clubs I’d be saying to the AFL give us Preston and one other clubthen we’re 10 clubs, and we’ll be your reserves comp in return for some funding to keep us going. You’ll save a lot by not having to have your own VFL sides or VFL listed players, coaches, admin etc. And you’ll have full control over your senior list sizes as you can give us as few players as you like each week.

In return we keep our names, jumpers and grounds, and we get VFL reserves to play our own overflow of players and focus on developing undrafted kids.

Gives you AFL reserves even if you only have list sizes of 35, and a pathway for undrafted kids.
Who would align with whom? There are obvious ones such as:

Carlton - Preston
Essendon - Coburg
Hawthorn - Box Hill
Melbourne - Casey
St. Kilda - Sandringham
Footscray - Williamstown

So that leaves Collingwood, Richmond, North and Geelong between Port, Werribee, Frankston and the new team. Now normally I'd agree that Werribee and North would fit well but generally the Falcons align with the Tigers, and who is the last addition? Is it another north east side for the Pies? Is it an expanded Falcons for Geelong?
 

Great8

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Absolutely ridiculous that it is not starting to then, they could be playing next weekend with crowds in my opinion. 2 more months is just Ming boggling, who is setting these rules.
A SANFL player told me yesterday that that the SANFL is looking to start on June 27th.
14 rounds with everyone playing each other twice. Top 4 with finals starting October 3 and GF on October 17th. At this stage initially no crowds but that is still up for debate
 

footyfan1978

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SANFL got their sh*t together early on what could be salvaged of their season. Kudos to them for having a much better plan in place already.
 

Bunk Moreland

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Sep 22, 2011
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Who would align with whom? There are obvious ones such as:

Carlton - Preston
Essendon - Coburg
Hawthorn - Box Hill
Melbourne - Casey
St. Kilda - Sandringham
Footscray - Williamstown

So that leaves Collingwood, Richmond, North and Geelong between Port, Werribee, Frankston and the new team. Now normally I'd agree that Werribee and North would fit well but generally the Falcons align with the Tigers, and who is the last addition? Is it another north east side for the Pies? Is it an expanded Falcons for Geelong?
I don't think it's actually a huge issue. The Vic teams have little geography any more apart from Geelong. It's handy to be close but by no means essential.

Bulldogs - Williamstown
Carlton - Preston
Collingwood - Frankston
Essendon - Coburg
Geelong - Werribee
Hawthorn - Box Hill
Melbourne - Casey
North - North Ballarat (or replacement)
Richmond - Port Melbourne
St Kilda - Sandringham

Play on Sunday every week. Gives the AFL clubs first dibs on selection and late changes for the weekend, plus gets the games away from Saturday local footy so may actually look to build some sort of crowds over time. Exceptions could be AFL curtain raisers by agreement where possible (at Geelong or Punt Road).

 

eth-dog

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I don't think it's actually a huge issue. The Vic teams have little geography any more apart from Geelong. It's handy to be close but by no means essential.

Bulldogs - Williamstown
Carlton - Preston
Collingwood - Frankston
Essendon - Coburg
Geelong - Werribee
Hawthorn - Box Hill
Melbourne - Casey
North - North Ballarat (or replacement)
Richmond - Port Melbourne
St Kilda - Sandringham

Play on Sunday every week. Gives the AFL clubs first dibs on selection and late changes for the weekend, plus gets the games away from Saturday local footy so may actually look to build some sort of crowds over time. Exceptions could be AFL curtain raisers by agreement where possible (at Geelong or Punt Road).

See I reckon North are better suited for Port. And Richmond for Frankston.
 

footyfan1978

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Greg Swann confirmed yesterday the 4 clubs up North pushing for an Eastern AFL type reserve comp next year.
But like I keep saying he says it all very much dependent on AFL list sizes going forward.
 

footyfan1978

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The sooner the VFL name is retired from other comps other than AFL, the better. Gets very confusing for history of the game. Got no idea whom came up with stupid idea of calling it VFL in last two decades but always been a silly mistake.
Sooner Eastern AFL happens the better imo. Hope AFL lists are not cut to 35 to keep this realistic for 2021.
 

FRUMPY

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Aug 18, 2006
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Greg Swann confirmed yesterday the 4 clubs up North pushing for an Eastern AFL type reserve comp next year.
But like I keep saying he says it all very much dependent on AFL list sizes going forward.
Typical - one minute crying poor and need to cut list sizes, next minute wanting to increase spending by reserves travelling interstate to play footy.

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