Religion See religion is an existential threat to our society

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Seeds

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Are we still banning religions?
we ban drugs Even though it only harms the individual who abuses them.

religions not only harm the indoctrinated but athiests and innocent children as well.

the religious are like the unvaccinated in a pandemic. They should not have the same freedoms as everyone else To help incentivise them to stop being fools.
 

Sweet Jesus

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we ban drugs Even though it only harms the individual who abuses them.

religions not only harm the indoctrinated but athiests and innocent children as well.

the religious are like the unvaccinated in a pandemic. They should not have the same freedoms as everyone else To help incentivise them to stop being fools.
Do you understand that you are arguing for the creation of thought crimes?
 

Seeds

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Do you understand that you are arguing for the creation of thought crimes?
nope thats an incorrect assumption you have made. Only the act of being religous would be banned. Not the thought of religion. People can secretly believe in a god as long as they dont act on those beliefs. Just like a pedophile can lust over children but will not be penalised unless he acts on it.
 

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Opine

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nope thats an incorrect assumption you have made. Only the act of being religous would be banned. Not the thought of religion. People can secretly believe in a god as long as they dont act on those beliefs. Just like a pedophile can lust over children but will not be penalised unless he acts on it.
At international human rights law and locally, Atheism is formally considered a religion. How do you propose to adopt your idea in light of that?
 
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Sweet Jesus

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nope thats an incorrect assumption you have made. Only the act of being religous would be banned. Not the thought of religion.
That's a thought crime.

The act of "being religious" is a private matter, which you would ban.

People can secretly believe in a god as long as they dont act on those beliefs.
What does that even mean?

Would police go into Jewish people's homes and make sure no one is wearing a yarmulke?

Would people be allowed to own a bible or a koran?

You are deeply confused about your own principles.
 
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Seeds

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That's a thought crime.

The act of "being religious" is a private matter, which you would ban.

What does that even mean?

Would police go into Jewish people's homes and make sure no one is wearing a yarmulke?

Would people be allowed to own a bible or a koran?

You are deeply confused about your own principles.
The act of being religious is not a private matter. Being religious means you believe in an objective universal morality that must be followed by all. Because its err well universal and objective.

A religious person who is true to their religious belief must try to enforce their religious beliefs upon others. This is the act of being religious. god decrees that the act of killing is not just wrong for me. god decrees its wrong for everyone To do.


no one can carry out abortions. i must stop those that try. I must vote for laws that stops those that try. I must indoctrinate my children with the will of god. This is the act of being religious. This is what must be banned.

its the same as social media wanting to ban people from spreading harmful misinformation. Its the same as human rights lawyers wanting to enforce governments to give all people equal rights even if the majority disagrees with them for certain groups.
 

Sweet Jesus

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The act of being religious is not a private matter. Being religious means you believe in an objective universal morality that must be followed by all. Because its err well universal and objective.

A religious person who is true to their religious belief must try to enforce their religious beliefs upon others. This is the act of being religious. god decrees that the act of killing is not just wrong for me. god decrees its wrong for everyone To do.
What a load of rubbish.

Of course "being religious" is a private matter.

You can't ban people from seeing the world a certain way.

no one can carry out abortions. i must stop those that try. I must vote for laws that stops those that try. I must indoctrinate my children with the will of god. This is the act of being religious. This is what must be banned.
So answer my specific questions.

Would you ban religious observance?

Would police go into Jewish people's homes and make sure no one is wearing a yarmulke?

Would people be allowed to own a bible or a koran?
 

Seeds

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What a load of rubbish.

Of course "being religious" is a private matter.

You can't ban people from seeing the world a certain way.

So answer my specific questions.

Would you ban religious observance?

Would police go into Jewish people's homes and make sure no one is wearing a yarmulke?

Would people be allowed to own a bible or a koran?
You have a habbit of just ignoring points to make it easy for you to maintain your position.

it makes you boring.

i stated exactly why its not a private matter. religion is not simply any world view. It is a very specific type of world view that makes belief in it not a private matter as already described.

when you are ready to debate such a point please continue. Else if you continue to ignore then you are wasting everyones time. So dont bother.
 

Sweet Jesus

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You have a habbit of just ignoring points to make it easy for you to maintain your position.

it makes you boring.

i stated exactly why its not a private matter. religion is not simply any world view. It is a very specific type of world view that makes belief in it not a private matter as already described.

when you are ready to debate such a point please continue. Else if you continue to ignore then you are wasting everyones time. So dont bother.
Would your ban make it illegal to own a bible?

I mean, if the objective is to prevent "misinformation", surely the prohibition includes the bible, right?

Maybe we should burn these books just to make the point?
 

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Sweet Jesus

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Everything you dont like that is significantly harmful to others should be banned.

See you did it again. Ignored the key point to simplify the argument to something you can easily argue against. Stop doing it.
So should bibles be banned?

If you're concerned about "misinformation and indoctrination", surely you need to ban bibles?
 
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Seeds

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So should bibles be banned?

If you're concerned about "misinformation and indoctrination", surely you need to ban bibles?
No everyone should be able to read it. Mein kampf shouldnt be banned either. We can study it for its historical context. To help us understand what some people thought. But teaching the bible as if its truth is a different matter.
 

Sweet Jesus

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No everyone should be able to read it. Mein kampf shouldnt be banned either. We can study it for its historical context. To help us understand what some people thought. But teaching the bible as if its truth is a different matter.
So you're not banning religion at all.

If you claim you want to ban religion because of "misinformation and indoctrination", how can you be OK with the central texts still being allowed?

Is this another case of you saying something that makes no sense?
 

yebiga

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We have long been told that religion is harmless. religious people may be nutters who believe that everyone are slaves to the whims of imaginary fairies in the sky but in practise they mostly adjust their views on social practises to fit in with the views of normal people (Excluding some minor things like abortion, condoms, womens rights etc).

but today they showed us this is not true.


By strongly discouraging the use of incentives for everyone to vaccinate they have sowed the seeds of mass vaccine hesitancy which will prevent us from getting where we need to be with vaccines. For vaccines to create herd immunity we need to get well above 80 percent vaccination. Probably well above 90 percent. the church leaders have killed any chance of that happening. They have doomed us all to ongoing pandemics, masks, social distancing, border controls and lockdowns. people dont realise this yet but this is what they have done. Society will never truly return to the pre pandemic days as a result.

we now have the evidence we need to move towards a society that ends religion. Religion has also sowed the seeds to its destruction today. They are not harmless nutters. They are dangerous uneducated people.

the progressive left needs to move away from the mantra of tolerance of religion to promoting humanism ahead of all religions. The science has come a long way over the past 150 years. We now know beyond reasonable doubt that reality is indeed only physical and there are no gods and objective universal moralities. So why do we continue to pretend its ok to believe in gods let alone follow their whims? Its harmless was the answer many fell back on. Well that argument has been destroyed today. We need to be humanists. we need to realise that the goal of society is to promote the well being of humans. And this leads us all to getting vaccinated. Well being is the goal. Not gods. Not freedom. But well being.

Ban religions. Mandate vaccines for all who dont have relevant medical conditions.
Religion is not something outside the individual nor is it outer worldly - it's an instinct a drive to discover a purpose a direction, meaning, value a way to live.
How it manifests is a different matter but manifest it will. The current secular obsession with Climate Change and even Covid has undeniable characteristics that are Religious. The language we typically use around climate and covid is religious. We even have damnation for the non believers, rituals, prayers and loyalty pledges that have all the hallmarks of sacraments.

We may know or believe we know there are no gods or supernatural beings - but you would be seriously mistaken to think that is all there is to religion.
The supernatural bits are there to impress children. The other bits we don't like are simply evidence of people co-opting religion for political purposes. You would be mistaken to think that does not also occur in science, business ever field of human endeavour including climate change or with covid.

Religion stripped of all these superfluous trappings is a recording of our collective values and wisdom. Values and wisdom that has been tempered, trialed and proven functional across millennia. You throw that away at your own peril. I content that there is more intelligence in those stories than we imagine.

The modern secular delusion is that science can provide value and wisdom. Science can't do that because science is a tool - it has no inbuilt value system - in fact it's intentionally valueless character is what makes it most useful. Our values by necessity precede science and determine what science we conduct, the priorities we set and how we measure its efficacy. Those values need to be explicit and if they are explicit all the most heated arguments humans typically engage in will largely evaporate and be replaced with a contentious but exciting exploration of ideas. Only when our values are not expressed clearly and agreed upon do we find ourselves in serious cross purposes.

Looked another way - the garden of eden is a coming of age story - had they not become curious and eaten the apple god would have had to throw them out. Just like our parents need to at some point. Cain kills Able out of resentment and envy - this is the first sin and its not one that has gone out of favour. The tower of Babel is a warning against hubris, the type I suggest we are currently displaying with this pandemic reponse. Each of these enduring stories survived because they were found to be functionally true and they reveal something endless generations considered really important. The old testament even includes whole chapters on sanitation and cleanliness - something we forgot and only began to realise the importance of a little over 100 years ago.

The new testament gospels possess some of the most memorable lines and lessons and values you will find in any literature and those values are implicit in much of what we seem to believe. The greek myths and plays, Shakespeare, Plato, all these timeless works are our religion. As are our charters and agreements that protect human rights.

You can't eradicate religion - what you need to do is oreintate towards something uplifting and worthwhile but do it consciously and overtly.
 
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Seeds

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So you're not banning religion at all.

If you claim you want to ban religion because of "misinformation and indoctrination", how can you be OK with the central texts still being allowed?

Is this another case of you saying something that makes no sense?
No its another case of you not understanding what religion is.

religion is not simply texts about super human powers. Otherwise lord of the rings, marvel comics and harry potter books would be a religious text.

Religion is not even belief in superhuman powers.

religion is the worship of superhuman powers and the belief that at least some of those super powers decree what is objective moral behaviour and what is not.
 

Sweet Jesus

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No its another case of you not understanding what religion is.

religion is not simply texts about super human powers. Otherwise lord of the rings, marvel comics and harry potter books would be a religious text.
My understanding is that you object to the belief systems. Texts form part of the basis of that.

Religion is not even belief in superhuman powers.

religion is the worship of superhuman powers and the belief that at least some of those super powers decree what is objective moral behaviour and what is not.
So, once again, you say you want to ban religion but can't clarify what that actually entails.

You want to ban religion because of "misinformation and indoctrination", yet you're OK with the central texts? How does that work?
 

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