Coach Senior Coach Ben "Truck" Rutten

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owen87

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We're doing the same as previous years against sides below us. Maybe we're winning by more but our record is pretty much the same as it always was against average and poor sides. I'm not disappointed at all with what we're doing but to say "we're beating sides we should be beating more consistently" is plainly false when it's pretty much the same as our time under Woosha, which people just don't want to admit.
We've been more convincing this year, in the past few years we've gone in to games against lower ranked sides knowing that in every likelihood we'd somehow end up making a grind of it and maybe win by a couple of goals. The percentage this year shows a lot more convincing wins, quite a few where (aside from the Hawks game) we've really had the job done around half-time and never let up.
 

JayJ20

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We consistently beat teams outside the top 8 under Woosha. Fact. We consistently lost top top 8 sides under Woosha. Fact. We have done so the same this season. Fact.

Seriously, I'm not saying Truck is a bad coach and that this year hasn't exceeded my expectations, it has. I'm just trying to get people to acknowledge that we've been beating bottom 10 sides pretty consistently over the past 5 years. Can you admit that?
Consistently is a strong word given we were inconsistent under Woosha, but we generally did win. I'm not even arguing bottom 10 anyway.

Now can you admit we've struggled against bottom 4 sides under Woosha more than what we have this year?
 

eth-dog

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We've been more convincing this year, in the past few years we've gone in to games against lower ranked sides knowing that in every likelihood we'd somehow end up making a grind of it and maybe win by a couple of goals. The percentage this year shows a lot more convincing wins, quite a few where (aside from the Hawks game) we've really had the job done around half-time and never let up.
I agree. However it's not the point that many are making.
 

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Call Me Cake

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My apologies, I forgot the Dogs missed the top 8 in 2018. Still, 9-3 against sides outside the top 8 is hardly terrible, compared to 3-7 against top 8 sides, no?
That was the point I was making - the divide is those above us, and those who finished below us. It's not about the bottom 8. We didn't finish 8th in 2018.

I think you are buttering up our losses to those 3 sides by pointing to the win tally of certain teams (those above us, including ones above us in the bottom 8) - which further proves my initial point.

Regardless, we have had a 52.5% turnover on the senior list (57.6% if you include the rookie list), since 2018. Most teams with that kind of a turnover are transitioning to a new era, which is usually followed by a slow fall and lengthy inconsistency. We are in a gelling period, and we still managed to be consistent in regards to the formlines of those coming up against us. I'd say that is a step in the right direction.

A bigger ceiling with all things considered, than what was prospected in regards to our past form (which was often used in a way that was misleading in order to soften the realities at the time).
 

eth-dog

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Consistently is a strong word given we were inconsistent under Woosha, but we generally did win. I'm not even arguing bottom 10 anyway.

Now can you admit we've struggled against bottom 4 sides under Woosha more than what we have this year?
A 34-14-1 record against bottom 10 sides is pretty consistent I would have thought.

Yes.
That was the point I was making - the divide is those above us, and those who finished below us. It's not about the bottom 8. We didn't finish 8th in 2018.

I think you are buttering up our losses to those 3 sides by pointing to the win tally of certain teams (those above us, including ones above us in the bottom 8) - which further proves my initial point.

Regardless, we have had a 52.5% turnover on the senior list (57.6% if you include the rookie list), since 2018. Most teams with that kind of a turnover are transitioning to a new era, which is usually followed by a slow fall and lengthy inconsistency. We are in a gelling period, and we still managed to be consistent in regards to the formlines of those coming up against us. I'd say that is a step in the right direction.

A bigger ceiling with all things considered, than what was prospected in regards to our past form (which was often used in a way that was misleading in order to soften the realities at the time).
I disagree, I don't really care if we finish 9th or 13th either way (apart from any hilarity of Richmond finishing 9th wherever possible). It's about beating teams inside the 8 and outside of it.

9 wins and 3 losses against teams that finish outside of the top 8 is a decent record. You're trying to twist it so that the wins against North and Port, who only finished ahead of us due to percentage, were irrelevant to the discussion.
 

Call Me Cake

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I disagree, I don't really care if we finish 9th or 13th either way (apart from any hilarity of Richmond finishing 9th wherever possible). It's about beating teams inside the 8 and outside of it.

9 wins and 3 losses against teams that finish outside of the top 8 is a decent record. You're trying to twist it so that the wins against North and Port, who only finished ahead of us due to percentage, were irrelevant to the discussion.
Out of the teams that finished below us in 2018, we won 4, and lost 3

That is a 75% rate.

That's terrible.

Not to mention in 2018, we went 1-3 against those sides, and only made up the numbers against the rest later on in the season when most of them were way out of it and had nothing left to play for. Junk-time consolation wins.

"You don't really care" - well, that's like, your opinion. But when you quote my post - then stay on topic. It's not for you to decide. I clearly stated and was in reference to, our record against those below us.

How about before you try to accuse me of twisting things - you start your own post, with your own make-believe boundaries you come up with - rather than responding to mine.

You're trying to put a spin on our terrible 4-3 record against those below us in 2018 by pointing to the wins of those above us (aka, better than us) - further proving my point as to how glossed over our shithouse record was - in the same vein as Hawks supporters pointing to their record against those above them this year to ignore the fact that they're in a hole - and therefore explaining why we ended up where we were in the years to come - mid-tier side buttering up our form with irrelevant wins languishing in no-man's land doing too many things at once in a bad way instead of focusing on striking off each individual piece of the puzzle, one at a time, and not moving on until each piece is done well.
 
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eth-dog

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Out of the teams that finished below us in 2018, we won 4, and lost 4.

That is a 50% rate.

That's terrible.

Not to mention in 2018, we went 0-4 straight against those sides, and only made up the numbers against the rest later on in the season when most of them were way out of it and had nothing left to play for. Junk-time consolation wins.

"You don't really care" - well, that's like, your opinion. But when you quote my post - then stay on topic. It's not for you to decide. I clearly stated and was in reference to, our record against those below us.

How about before you try to accuse me of twisting things - you start your own post, with your own make-believe boundaries you come up with - rather than responding to mine and then not even getting your facts straight in regards to the numbers.

I could just as easily say that you're trying to put a spin on our terrible 4-4 record against those below us in 2018 by pointing to the wins of those above us (aka, better than us) - further proving my point as to how glossed over our shithouse record was - in the same vein as Hawks supporters pointing to their record against those above them this year to ignore the fact that they're in a hole - and therefore explaining why we ended up where we were in the years to come - mid-tier side buttering up our form with irrelevant wins languishing in no-man's land doing too many things at once in a bad way instead of focusing on striking off each individual piece of the puzzle, one at a time, and not moving on until each piece is done well.
Actually we went 5-3. We lost to Freo, Bulldogs and Carlton, with wins against Adelaide, Brisbane, Gold Coast, Freo and St. Kilda. In addition we also defeated Port twice (level on points) and North. So not only are you wrong about that, you've doubled down and said we were 0-4 against them to start off when we won our first game against a side that finished below us.

So you're focusing on one year where you haven't gotten your facts right, when my overarching point has been proven to be correct except for one minor detail.
 

Call Me Cake

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Actually we went 5-3. We lost to Freo, Bulldogs and Carlton, with wins against Adelaide, Brisbane, Gold Coast, Freo and St. Kilda. In addition we also defeated Port twice (level on points) and North. So not only are you wrong about that, you've doubled down and said we were 0-4 against them to start off when we won our first game against a side that finished below us.

So you're focusing on one year where you haven't gotten your facts right, when my overarching point has been proven to be correct except for one minor detail.
Edited my post before your one, but nevertheless, we'll agree to disagree.

And lost to Freo, and beat Freo. Okay.
 

Call Me Cake

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That I made one minor mistake 3 pages ago, acknowledged it and moved on and you're busy nitpicking about it compared to my overarching point that we were pretty consistently beating bottom 10 sides under Woosha.
Losing to 3 sides below us in a row in 2018 is not consistency.

Losing to 5 in 2017 (which is irrelevant by now tbh) is not consistency.

You are buttering up these by pointing to the wins to those above us.

Edit: I will concede that we had a better win tally overall in 2018 numerical-wise (by 1) and the fact that in 2020 we finished really low anyway (which becomes irrelevant due to there being less teams below us and the fact that it is a shorter season) - but you cannot take away from the fact that we have faired better with the way we've been winning when compared to 2018 and the string of wins we've put in blocks compared to previous years. And, to do it in a year that we have conceded was meant to be the start to a rebuild? And with the youth ratio we have now compared to those years? That should count for something.

2018:
Screenshot_20210823-163053_AFL.jpg


2021:
Screenshot_20210823-163113_AFL.jpg


Noticing the points scored, and points conceded, the amount of times in a row we've put sides below us away, and with the future of the list in mind, which stat would you rather have?
 
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eth-dog

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Losing to 3 sides below us in a row in 2018 is not consistency.

Losing to 3 and drawing with 1 in 2020 (still have to fact check this) is not consistency.

Losing to 5 in 2017 (which is irrelevant by now tbh) is not consistency.

You are buttering up these by pointing to the wins to those above us.

Therefore proving my "overarching" point and your inability to concede. We're done.
Going 34-14-1 against teams outside of the top 8 is pretty consistent.

And your "wins against teams above us" would be more relevant if they hadn't had the same amount of wins, and if we take them out it's still 31-14-1 over a 4 year period, which is still a little below a 70% win rate.

But sure, I'm the one who can't concede, even though I've acknowledged my mistake. Whereas you're harping on about three losses, in one isolated year, and failing to acknowledge my point.

Classic finish from someone proven incorrect. Oh and the three losses to teams outside the 8 last year? Finished 9th, 10th and 11th to our 13th. We went 4-0-1 against the teams below us, given that was your oh so glorious point.
 

Call Me Cake

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Going 34-14-1 against teams outside of the top 8 is pretty consistent.

And your "wins against teams above us" would be more relevant if they hadn't had the same amount of wins, and if we take them out it's still 31-14-1 over a 4 year period, which is still a little below a 70% win rate.

But sure, I'm the one who can't concede, even though I've acknowledged my mistake. Whereas you're harping on about three losses, in one isolated year, and failing to acknowledge my point.

Classic finish from someone proven incorrect. Oh and the three losses to teams outside the 8 last year? Finished 9th, 10th and 11th to our 13th. We went 4-0-1 against the teams below us, given that was your oh so glorious point.
Fair enough. Agree to disagree. But we're in the 8 and should be happy.

One could say the reason we're in the 8 ahead of those below us that were vying for the spot with us is because we've added to their loss tally.

Woosha was sh*t and our list was dire, with it's future relying on players that barely featured this year. Accept it. Onto next week. :thumbsu:

P.S I don't know if its clear already but I edited my post about the concede part, and have also made a mistake before in relation to statistics (and was not carrying on about your one error, I even removed the reference to that). You may have not seen the edits and thats fair enough.
 
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maskmcgee

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What Worsfold said in 2019 when asked about the finals drought was apparently "Coach John Worsfold has conceded supporters have become “anxious” after 15 years"

Rutten's response much better, playing offense not defense, saying supporters are 'anxious' puts pressure on the players, while Truck saying they should focus on building new history, motivating instead.
 

yodellinhank

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What Worsfold said in 2019 when asked about the finals drought was apparently "Coach John Worsfold has conceded supporters have become “anxious” after 15 years"

Rutten's response much better, playing offense not defense, saying supporters are 'anxious' puts pressure on the players, while Truck saying they should focus on building new history, motivating instead.
Worsfold came into the place and tried unEssendoning it. How many times did I post the George Costanza world series trophy gif? Everything he ever said was wishy washy bullshit designed to buy him more time.
 

Red Black and Blue

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Not sure who gets credit Rutten or Carcella: the line running on the spread from contest is amazing. The ingraining of running lines offensively that provide artificial blocks is the secret to our success. We are buying time for the man in possession while leave the opponents in no mans land and getting forward of the contest to create the overlap. It's a work of art.
 

owen87

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Not sure who gets credit Rutten or Carcella: the line running on the spread from contest is amazing. The ingraining of running lines offensively that provide artificial blocks is the secret to our success. We are buying time for the man in possession while leave the opponents in no mans land and getting forward of the contest to create the overlap. It's a work of art.
I believe Caracella is the one who looks after our movement with the ball, Rutten was looking after our movement without the ball pre-Head Coach.

Giansiracusa is also doing something given his previous role with the Bulldogs would mesh with what Caracella looks after.
 

supportyourteam

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Just on a side note Rutten seems to have settled the argument. South Australians recognize flags won under the VFL banner as equivalent to those won under the AFL banner. Also can't see any point in deriding Worsfold. he is who he is. Last year was opportunity for Rutten to see where the club was at under Worsfold and all that preceded him and develop his feelings and ideas about where he would take it. Much prefer that sort of change over to any of the recent Collingwood, Carlton or Hawthorn going ons. There is an underlying concession in there that 2020 wasn't a serious premiership year. It was a coach appointment year. Anyway had 50 bucks on them to make the 8 at the start of the year at 5.50. Not overly confident of the flag bet that is still alive but happy days.
 

mike ross

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I'm with everyone about Rutten. He has done a fantastic job driving our culture. We are now starting to display a more consistent display on field each week. Haven't seen that for a very long time.

But this guy deserves a lot of credit as well.

download (17).jpg


Hope he stays with us for a very long time to come. When the club announced he was coming back and i first saw it pop up on my phone it made me genuinely excited. We can all see the improvement in our ball movement. A real pleasure to watch.

Cheers Cara :thumbsu:
 

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